Are the $19,500 Berkeley and $35,000 dCS DACs really worth big bucks?

Mdp632

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None of those problems intrinsically exist in dCS gear. If you read the assessment of Peter A. about the dCS Rossini,

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...win-s-High-End&p=379841&viewfull=1#post379841

he specifically points out the naturalness of ssound with proper harmonic integrity (and he exclusively listens to vinyl at home). And BTW, the most realistic, and thus harmonically integrated, presentation of a triangle, including perfect decay, that I have heard was not from top analog, but from a dCS Vivaldi stack playing a 44.1 kHz Reference Recordings CD.



Of course head to head comparisons within a single system are the only way to accurately assess the sound of individual components. Claiming otherwise would betray lack of thorough experience with a sufficiently diverse spectrum of high end systems/room situations (sorry to be so blunt about the truth).


This thread opens up more questions than answers. IMHO Value is determined by the customer. Just because someone has the means to buy a DCS Vivaldi they might not see the value in it and buy the Schiit product instead.

However, that same person might be very passionate about something else let's say cars. They go out and buy a 250K Lamborghini. But, a New Corvette is just as good etc . Well you get the point...Just my opinion...
 

caesar

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I don't know. I do know my $6k msrp PS Audio Direct stream does a fine job. If digital was my primary medium, then I would probably look at the more expensive hi-end DAC's and compare them against this PSA direct stream DAC.

Hi Rockitman,
It's easy to spend another man's money, but a used chord or bricasti for nearly that money will kill your ps audio. In fact, you may re- assess digital altogether. Or not.
Cheers
 

caesar

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This thread opens up more questions than answers. IMHO Value is determined by the customer. Just because someone has the means to buy a DCS Vivaldi they might not see the value in it and buy the Schiit product instead.

However, that same person might be very passionate about something else let's say cars. They go out and buy a 250K Lamborghini. But, a New Corvette is just as good etc . Well you get the point...Just my opinion...

Absolutely. Check out the thread on ken Kessler latest article. New valcuine kitchen or new dac? New Porsche or a new high end audio component? Most people choose based on their goals...
 

caesar

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Owners of expensive DACs can expect one month of peace: :D

"Although Moffatt warned me that the Yggy wouldn’t sound good right out of the box, I gave it a quick listen anyway after an hour of warm-up. He was right; the Yggy was hard, bright, forward, and flat. I checked in with it a couple of times over the next week and heard it improving somewhat, but it was still disappointing. I decided to let it sit in my rack, powered up, for a full month before revisiting it."

Hilarious! Love it!!!
 

caesar

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Hi Caesar,

I have done many hours of auditioning of the Berkeley Ref2 DAC and I can tell you it sounds pretty much the opposite of analytical. In fact, it is one of the most tube-like sounding solid state DACs you will find. It has a very musical presentation with loads of midrange body and very smooth treble with zero digital artifice. My MQA version of the Berkeley Ref2 will be arriving in a few weeks, so I'll give a full report then.

Best,
Ken

Hi Alpinist,
Tastes differ. So do systems. If you love it, go for it. If still exploring, there is not a shortage of great dacs out there. If one is after "musicality", chord, bricasti, totaldac, luxman all have it more than Berkeley in my experience.

But as we all know high end audio is very personal choice so enjoy
 

caesar

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No experience with the Berkeley Ref, but no way the Vivaldi stack is "severely analytical". It has a great resolving power, and shows more detail than any other DAC I have owned, but it also shows the "glue" between the details that make listening more similar to real. In some sense it also perfectly integrates the analytical details in the whole.

Many enjoyable DACs present spacious sound with 3D, but when the recording has the information the Vivaldi presents acoustic density in space in an unique way, creating power and dialogue in the stage - but it needs a properly tuned system to show it. When mismatched it becomes really boring.

Great way to describe it. My comments were more toward Berkeley. And apply to previous dcs. I'm not sure about newer dcs. Dcs seems to have made a bserios strategic errors of always showing with Wilson and limiting their reach . I'm not a Wilson haTer, but other than Alexandria, I don't really care about their speakers that much...
 

Al M.

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Hi Alpinist,
Tastes differ. So do systems. If you love it, go for it. If still exploring, there is not a shortage of great dacs out there. If one is after "musicality", chord, bricasti, totaldac, luxman all have it more than Berkeley in my experience.

But as we all know high end audio is very personal choice so enjoy

Regardless of what one may think of the content of your posts (I am skeptical), your cocksure attitude certainly makes for great entertainment ;)
 

Al M.

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Great way to describe it. My comments were more toward Berkeley. And apply to previous dcs. I'm not sure about newer dcs. Dcs seems to have made a bserios strategic errors of always showing with Wilson and limiting their reach . I'm not a Wilson haTer, but other than Alexandria, I don't really care about their speakers that much...

Great way to praise a description of dCS by someone who does own Wilson XLF speakers, by bashing Wilson. As I said, lovely entertainment ;)
 

caesar

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Regardless of what one may think of the content of your posts (I am skeptical), your cocksure attitude certainly makes for great entertainment ;)
Thanks. Isn't what this hobby is all about?
 

caesar

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Great way to praise a description of dCS by someone who does own Wilson XLF speakers, by bashing Wilson. As I said, lovely entertainment ;)

Trying to bash dcs stupid move, actually. :) As I said, I like the Alexandria line.
 

morricab

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None of those problems intrinsically exist in dCS gear. If you read the assessment of Peter A. about the dCS Rossini,

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...win-s-High-End&p=379841&viewfull=1#post379841

he specifically points out the naturalness of ssound with proper harmonic integrity (and he exclusively listens to vinyl at home). And BTW, the most realistic, and thus harmonically integrated, presentation of a triangle, including perfect decay, that I have heard was not from top analog, but from a dCS Vivaldi stack playing a 44.1 kHz Reference Recordings CD.



Of course head to head comparisons within a single system are the only way to accurately assess the sound of individual components. Claiming otherwise would betray lack of thorough experience with a sufficiently diverse spectrum of high end systems/room situations (sorry to be so blunt about the truth).

I disagree with your assessment of DCS and Peter A's feelings on the matter don't change that. As I said, maybe the Vivaldi is a whole new ball of wax...or maybe it is the same basic sound wrapped in a pretty wrapper.

You seem to be really good at being blunt but less so about it being the truth. Surely, you were not implying that I have don't have the experience and if you will read some of my reviews you will see that comparison is definitely part of my reviewing arsenal. However, so is listening to the same piece of gear in multiple systems to see how it influences the sound in those systems. Just as informative...
 

Al M.

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I disagree with your assessment of DCS and Peter A's feelings on the matter don't change that. As I said, maybe the Vivaldi is a whole new ball of wax...or maybe it is the same basic sound wrapped in a pretty wrapper.

Brad, how can you disagree with Peter's and my assessment without having heard the new generation dCS gear? How can you have an opinion on something you haven't heard? You said you were a serious reviewer, right?

You seem to be really good at being blunt but less so about it being the truth. Surely, you were not implying that I have don't have the experience and if you will read some of my reviews you will see that comparison is definitely part of my reviewing arsenal. However, so is listening to the same piece of gear in multiple systems to see how it influences the sound in those systems. Just as informative...

Comparison within the same system is fine. The same piece of gear influencing the sound of multiple systems, as long as you have a baseline of the sound of those systems prior to insertion of the component, that's fine too. I don't object to this reviewing strategy at all.

However, you cannot compare different components across different systems if you don't know the basic sound of those systems in question. There is no way you can tell apart which component contributes which part to the overall sound.

By the way, I should better define my stance as to the question of accurately assessing the sound of individual components. If a system sounds great, then it is obvious that every single component within it has to sound great -- components can only to a certain extent compensate for one other (which includes tonal balance). If dynamics are great, then all the components have to contribute to that; the same with timbral resolution, separation of instruments, presence etc. Yet even then you still cannot exactly establish precisely how good each single component is as such without direct comparison with equivalent components in the same system.

However, if the system does not sound great, you can impossibly point to a single component as culprit -- unless you know all the other components and also the room acoustics in question very well.
 

Al M.

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The above also explains why I never judge at shows a system that doesn't sound great.

Most of the individual components could be just fine, but it is impossible to tell which one(s) may not be good, or how much the room acoustics degrade the sound. Or if there are adverse reactions of components towards one another (e.g., unfavorable amp/speaker interactions).

Many people however do judge at shows systems, and even individual components within them, as being bad when the sound is not that good. Which is a problem.
 

caesar

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Brad, how can you disagree with Peter's and my assessment without having heard the new generation dCS gear? How can you have an opinion on something you haven't heard? You said you were a serious reviewer, right?



Comparison within the same system is fine. The same piece of gear influencing the sound of multiple systems, as long as you have a baseline of the sound of those systems prior to insertion of the component, that's fine too. I don't object to this reviewing strategy at all.

However, you cannot compare different components across different systems if you don't know the basic sound of those systems in question. There is no way you can tell apart which component contributes which part to the overall sound.

By the way, I should better define my stance as to the question of accurately assessing the sound of individual components. If a system sounds great, then it is obvious that every single component within it has to sound great -- components can only to a certain extent compensate for one other (which includes tonal balance). If dynamics are great, then all the components have to contribute to that; the same with timbral resolution, separation of instruments, presence etc. Yet even then you still cannot exactly establish precisely how good each single component is as such without direct comparison with equivalent components in the same system.

However, if the system does not sound great, you can impossibly point to a single component as culprit -- unless you know all the other components and also the room acoustics in question very well.

Al, those are good points. But in my case I have very little interest listening to a $35k dac from a company with pedigree of sound I don't enjoy. And then you need to add a clock to make it sound really, really good... and an upsampler to make it great... so I am turned off by their marketing strategy on top of it all... especially when a reference dac like totaldac or chord can be had for a much less obscene amount...

The other thing you gotta accept is people will not share the same taste as you... and there is no point arguing about taste. Whoever is seriously interested, will audition accordingly.
 

Alpinist

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Hi Alpinist,
Tastes differ. So do systems. If you love it, go for it. If still exploring, there is not a shortage of great dacs out there. If one is after "musicality", chord, bricasti, totaldac, luxman all have it more than Berkeley in my experience.

But as we all know high end audio is very personal choice so enjoy

Hi Caesar,

Maybe "organic" or "natural" would have been a better choice of my words in place of "musicality". "Musicality" is very arbitrary concept. Some consider a high level of detail, tremendous layering or transparency to be musical. In any event, the Berkeley Ref2 DAC sounds just as organic or natural as my ARC Ref CD-9 Player/DAC with its six tubes.

Best,
Ken
 

morricab

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Brad, how can you disagree with Peter's and my assessment without having heard the new generation dCS gear? How can you have an opinion on something you haven't heard? You said you were a serious reviewer, right?



Comparison within the same system is fine. The same piece of gear influencing the sound of multiple systems, as long as you have a baseline of the sound of those systems prior to insertion of the component, that's fine too. I don't object to this reviewing strategy at all.

However, you cannot compare different components across different systems if you don't know the basic sound of those systems in question. There is no way you can tell apart which component contributes which part to the overall sound.

By the way, I should better define my stance as to the question of accurately assessing the sound of individual components. If a system sounds great, then it is obvious that every single component within it has to sound great -- components can only to a certain extent compensate for one other (which includes tonal balance). If dynamics are great, then all the components have to contribute to that; the same with timbral resolution, separation of instruments, presence etc. Yet even then you still cannot exactly establish precisely how good each single component is as such without direct comparison with equivalent components in the same system.

However, if the system does not sound great, you can impossibly point to a single component as culprit -- unless you know all the other components and also the room acoustics in question very well.

I believe I already stated that I haven't heard the Vivaldi and therefore reserve my opinion on the sound of that particular piece(s). Having heard most other DCS converters though, I would be surprised if it doesn't have a familiar sound...all the other ones did. Based on my experience to date, which is not insubstantial, I will have to disagree with any assessment of DCS that refers to it as musical. If you said this for a Lampizator or TotalDac then I could get on board for such a statement. If that upsets DCS fans...well so what? I will let you decide by reading my reviews if I am a "serious" reviewer or not.

I am pretty familiar with how your system will likely sound, having had three pairs of Ref 3as (both with and without Be tweeters) and having had a good push pull DHT amp (VAC 30/30) to drive them at one point. Its a good sound and one that I left only when I found horns that delivered simply more but without sacrificing the transparency and low coloration I need (being an electrostat owner for 15 years will sour you on most sounds). Where we diverge is primarily with the DAC. I find nearly all SS dacs borderline unlistenable after a very short time due to what I hear as artifacts that create a synthetic sound. I have heard most of the so-called "top of the top" DACs and I am not impressed and find that a lot of older "top of the top" DACs from the 90s actually deliver more musical sound. Some are just as resolving...its like the high end got amnesia about what kind of digital sound was REALLY available before companies dropped the expensive R2R chips to save money.

I have found that I can zero in on a component causing issues rather quickly and without the swapping in and out over and over that you seem to think is necessary. I wouldn't be much good as a hifi critic if I wasn't able to do this...

For sure if a system sounds great everything must be doing a good job but that doesn't mean you cannot hear what the system is doing wrong and what is the likely culprit. Separating out the room is not as challenging as you might think...rooms do not create the same kinds of sonic signatures that electronics do...they are a different realm and impact realism in different ways.

When I comment on shows, I usually only name the ones I thought sounded best and why. Most sound like crap at shows for one reason or another (my own opinion is that most gear is overpriced crap) so I tend to just praise the ones I thought worked best.
 

Al M.

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I believe I already stated that I haven't heard the Vivaldi and therefore reserve my opinion on the sound of that particular piece(s). Having heard most other DCS converters though, I would be surprised if it doesn't have a familiar sound...all the other ones did. Based on my experience to date, which is not insubstantial, I will have to disagree with any assessment of DCS that refers to it as musical.

Obviously you didn't reserve your opinion on the Rossini which you haven't heard.

I am pretty familiar with how your system will likely sound, having had three pairs of Ref 3as (both with and without Be tweeters) and having had a good push pull DHT amp (VAC 30/30) to drive them at one point. Its a good sound

Great that you like those speakers.

and one that I left only when I found horns that delivered simply more but without sacrificing the transparency and low coloration I need (being an electrostat owner for 15 years will sour you on most sounds). Where we diverge is primarily with the DAC. I find nearly all SS dacs borderline unlistenable after a very short time due to what I hear as artifacts that create a synthetic sound. I have heard most of the so-called "top of the top" DACs and I am not impressed and find that a lot of older "top of the top" DACs from the 90s actually deliver more musical sound. Some are just as resolving...its like the high end got amnesia about what kind of digital sound was REALLY available before companies dropped the expensive R2R chips to save money.

Who can judge my DAC better? You or people who have heard my system? If people are interested what people who actually have heard my system think of it they can read my system thread (link at the bottom of post). Last page for most recent impressions.

For sure if a system sounds great everything must be doing a good job but that doesn't mean you cannot hear what the system is doing wrong and what is the likely culprit. Separating out the room is not as challenging as you might think...and rooms do not create the same kinds of sonic signatures that electronics do...

That is only partially true. Many of the artifacts that I had previously ascribed to my digital at the time (Wadia 8/12), a strident, homogenizing, flat sound, were the culprit of my room; those problems were greatly ameliorated by acoustic treatment (ASC). A further lessening of what I had perceived as being remaining digital artifacts (with then the Berkeley) was achieved by inserting external power supplies for my amps. Thus, only in the second case it was electronics, and even then still not the digital component itself. And further, exchanging my Ensemble Reference speakers for the Ref 3A monitors made me again rethink my digital and conclude that it is much better than I had given it credit for. Talking about synthetic sound: some other remaining issues in that vein were solved by exchanging my interconnect for DaveC's ZenWave Audio D4 interconnect. Also here the culprit was not the digital, but something else (just in case you are wondering by now, no, I don't think my digital is perfect).

All those experiences have led me to be extremely skeptical of claims like yours, that you can readily separate out the room from the system itself, and that you can point out which component within the system is the likely culprit for artifacts.

When I comment on shows, I usually only name the ones I thought sounded best and why. Most sound like crap at shows for one reason or another (my own opinion is that most gear is overpriced crap)

I agree with you on your opinion that most expensive gear is (often way) overpriced.

so I tend to just praise the ones I thought worked best.

Good. I had forgotten one probably important, or perhaps in a number of cases even overriding, reason for bad sound at shows: the supply of electricity in those hotel rooms or industrial venues. An amp, especially a high-power one, that otherwise would be excellent but does not get good and unrestricted power may very well sound thin and with lousy treble, or compressed dynamics etc.
 
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microstrip

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I believe I already stated that I haven't heard the Vivaldi and therefore reserve my opinion on the sound of that particular piece(s). Having heard most other DCS converters though, I would be surprised if it doesn't have a familiar sound...all the other ones did. Based on my experience to date, which is not insubstantial, I will have to disagree with any assessment of DCS that refers to it as musical. If you said this for a Lampizator or TotalDac then I could get on board for such a statement. If that upsets DCS fans...well so what? I will let you decide by reading my reviews if I am a "serious" reviewer or not.

I am pretty familiar with how your system will likely sound, having had three pairs of Ref 3as (both with and without Be tweeters) and having had a good push pull DHT amp (VAC 30/30) to drive them at one point. Its a good sound and one that I left only when I found horns that delivered simply more but without sacrificing the transparency and low coloration I need (being an electrostat owner for 15 years will sour you on most sounds). Where we diverge is primarily with the DAC. I find nearly all SS dacs borderline unlistenable after a very short time due to what I hear as artifacts that create a synthetic sound. I have heard most of the so-called "top of the top" DACs and I am not impressed and find that a lot of older "top of the top" DACs from the 90s actually deliver more musical sound. Some are just as resolving...its like the high end got amnesia about what kind of digital sound was REALLY available before companies dropped the expensive R2R chips to save money.

I have found that I can zero in on a component causing issues rather quickly and without the swapping in and out over and over that you seem to think is necessary. I wouldn't be much good as a hifi critic if I wasn't able to do this...

For sure if a system sounds great everything must be doing a good job but that doesn't mean you cannot hear what the system is doing wrong and what is the likely culprit. Separating out the room is not as challenging as you might think...rooms do not create the same kinds of sonic signatures that electronics do...they are a different realm and impact realism in different ways.

When I comment on shows, I usually only name the ones I thought sounded best and why. Most sound like crap at shows for one reason or another (my own opinion is that most gear is overpriced crap) so I tend to just praise the ones I thought worked best.

Your post just suggests an extreme preference for a type of sound and a strong bias against high performance very expensive gear, except perhaps a few you love. Surely people who share your defined and restricted preference will appreciate your reviews.

And no, your words do not upset this particular and I think most DCS owners. My reference is a Studer A80 playing copies of master tapes and life, and I know how good some top digital equipment - not just DCS - can sound with good recordings if properly matched and tuned, something that I agree with you, does not happen every time in shows.

Audiophile live is filled with diversity - IMHO we should enjoy it and pick what we prefer. But IMHO there is nothing to be won calling ugly and nasty names to equipment other people like.
 

PeterA

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Audiophile live is filled with diversity - IMHO we should enjoy it and pick what we prefer. But IMHO there is nothing to be won calling ugly and nasty names to equipment other people like.

Agreed. Surprisingly, this "calling ugly and nasty names to equipment other people like" happens too often, and not just on forums, but also in direct conversations. I find it quite rude and not conducive to discourse and learning. It can be an indication of one's personal dogma and bias and amounts to little more than noise. I try to ignore it.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Agreed. Surprisingly, this "calling ugly and nasty names to equipment other people like" happens too often, and not just on forums, but also in direct conversations. I find it quite rude and not conducive to discourse and learning. It can be an indication of one's personal dogma and bias and amounts to little more than noise. I try to ignore it.

some of us go out of our way to find negativity and make it a big deal regardless of who we irritate. the targets simply need to not take the bait and consider the baiter and their history.

sh*t stirrers will sh*t stir. it's what they do.
 

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