Are the $19,500 Berkeley and $35,000 dCS DACs really worth big bucks?

asiufy

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Hi Mike!

I would still do the Zeel/50 ohm interface, as you could connect that to your 18NS...
When I talked to Vince about it, he was already thinking about it, and had already talked to the MSB engineers, so it seems the 50 ohm is a strong possibility!

And I agree with whoever said the analog output stage is crucial in a DAC. That's where MSB has made great strides in the recent past, and that's what elevated the DAC IV/V above their previous efforts. Of course, having NO output buffer is even better :)


cheers,
alex
 

Alpinist

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sorry, I was not clear.

whatever dac I'm using will be run through the darTZeel pre; which as a preamp I view as 'straight wire with gain'....using the 50 ohm 'zeel' interface.

OTOH whether that dac has it's own output gain stage (solid state or tubed) seems to matter a lot in the purity of the sound.

neither the MSB Select II nor the Trinity dac have such an analog output gain stage as they don't need them. and my hunch is that that is significant.

I'm sure there are alternate views of how my dart pre fits into this picture, I can only say what I hear.

MSB has agreed to incorporate a 50 ohm interface into one of their output modules if I wanted to go direct into my dart monos. I could try that...maybe. but my dart pre also has my phono stage(s).....so not likely the way I will go. the modular aspect of the Select II does open up opportunities other dacs cannot easily consider.

Hi Mike,

Have you considered using the Select II DAC's balanced XLR outputs and running it directly to your Dartzeel NHB-458 mono amps balanced XLR inputs? This way you could keep your Dartzeel preamp in the chain for your other sources but give the MSB Select II DAC the direct amplifier connection it excels with.

Best,
Ken
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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I hope it was not the case, but I have seen DACs where the filters changed the output levels - the differences were easily measurable with a test CD. The same situation could happen for the output voltage in SACD or CD mode in some players. The Vivaldi keeps level to .1%.

Well, you seem to know this company better than I do, does that sound like a mistake that they would make? What does Sterophile say about the filters in their old reviews?
 

KeithR

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May 7, 2010
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sorry, I was not clear.

whatever dac I'm using will be run through the darTZeel pre; which as a preamp I view as 'straight wire with gain'....using the 50 ohm 'zeel' interface.

OTOH whether that dac has it's own output gain stage (solid state or tubed) seems to matter a lot in the purity of the sound.

neither the MSB Select II nor the Trinity dac have such an analog output gain stage as they don't need them. and my hunch is that that is significant.

I'm sure there are alternate views of how my dart pre fits into this picture, I can only say what I hear.

MSB has agreed to incorporate a 50 ohm interface into one of their output modules if I wanted to go direct into my dart monos. I could try that...maybe. but my dart pre also has my phono stage(s).....so not likely the way I will go. the modular aspect of the Select II does open up opportunities other dacs cannot easily consider.

As many have said a large benefit of the Select II is the volume control, it would be great for you to experiment and give us impressions regardless.
 

allhifi

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Jun 19, 2016
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Seriously ?

My friend in Pocoima has a modified Yggdrasil and recently received the LKS MH-DA004 DAC ($1600 delivered from China). The completely stock stone cold out of the box LKS DAC was better in almost every way. Now he has modified the LKS (per my instructions) and feels the LKS sounds as good (playing 16/44 through Beatis server, through coax, through modified IFI spdif Ipurifier) as his $20,000 turntable system. Does this mean the LKS with mods would be better than Berkeley or DCS?

The LKS DAC has I2S input, plays DSD up to 512, has digital volume control and 7 selectable digital filters.....completely discrete output stage, discrete shunt regulators for output stage and is the first and only DAC in the world that I know of that has two ESS 9038 DACs in parallel.

What is even more interesting is that the $800 Oppo Sonica (single ESS9038 DAC chip) with my latest mods is getting real close to the sound of the LKS. I will be trying better regulators and a discrete output stage in the Oppo shortly and it then may equal the LKS.........What? This is getting insane!!!!!! The Oppo has Ethernet input, wireless streaming and can play files directly from hard drives or thumb drives using software you download to your smart phone......and it sounds good stock. Now, with todays mods it is goosebump city! New regulators arriving Friday.....what fun ahead!

Until these modded units are directly compared to Berkeley, DCS, etc. etc. we won't really know how good they are.....but the Yggy is history, for sure. I am going to try and get a modded Oppo going and send it out on tour so people can hear in their own home and in their own system how it compares with super "big bucks" machines. This is a fantastic time in the history of digital playback......we have some bargains here that may be unprecedented. Giant killers? We shall see.


LOL. Seriously now. It must take an amazing imagination (obviously possessed) to think a back-yard mechanic type has either the skill/ability or even qualifications to either modify or make comparisons to world-class products designed by authentic engineering chops. It's simply ridiculous.

That a micro cottage-industry has taken hold is all good and fine. But seriously, men (from highly respected company's) have devoted their entire lives to electronic engineering (digital and analog circuits) are being outwitted here ?

I note that some of these 'modder's' that once claimed "drop-your-pants" great sound (from 6-months ago) now denigrate it -and all the fancy expensive mod's made to it. In fact, it can be so wishy-washy that some modder's don't even offer any more of the lauded "modifications" once claimed to be the finest ever ?

And so it's on to the next assault; new player's, new game, new opportunity, more shite, ending the same way; abruptly.
Understand that, any "modded" piece's value (resale) also drops off abruptly -staggering so actually.
I note one chap who has/had a Gustard x20pro modified (+$800. US$) advertised for $620. CA$ including shipping ($450. US$) !

Two-grand US$ investment, one-year old DAC; $450. (US$) resale/return. Nice.

Stock units rightfully command on average $700. US$ on the used market.

Guys, there are some really, really good/excellent, affordable audiophile product out there. It would be smarter to consider for example, a AC power re-generator to power your low-level source components (specifically digital DAC's, CDP's, Streamers etc.) Or,a symmetrical (Balanced) AC power supply -i.e. Equitech.

Or really nice cables including digital SPDIF cable, Ethernet, USB and analog IC's. These are proven performers that can greatly elevate the listening experience without having to hack-the-heck out of a well-designed piece of audio gear (designed by smart, capable engineers).

Just something to think about ...

pj
 

MadFloyd

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LOL. Seriously now. It must take an amazing imagination (obviously possessed) to think a back-yard mechanic type has either the skill/ability or even qualifications to either modify or make comparisons to world-class products designed by authentic engineering chops. It's simply ridiculous.

That a micro cottage-industry has taken hold is all good and fine. But seriously, men (from highly respected company's) have devoted their entire lives to electronic engineering (digital and analog circuits) are being outwitted here ?

I note that some of these 'modder's' that once claimed "drop-your-pants" great sound (from 6-months ago) now denigrate it -and all the fancy expensive mod's made to it. In fact, it can be so wishy-washy that some modder's don't even offer any more of the lauded "modifications" once claimed to be the finest ever ?

And so it's on to the next assault; new player's, new game, new opportunity, more shite, ending the same way; abruptly.
Understand that, any "modded" piece's value (resale) also drops off abruptly -staggering so actually.
I note one chap who has/had a Gustard x20pro modified (+$800. US$) advertised for $620. CA$ including shipping ($450. US$) !

Two-grand US$ investment, one-year old DAC; $450. (US$) resale/return. Nice.

Stock units rightfully command on average $700. US$ on the used market.

Guys, there are some really, really good/excellent, affordable audiophile product out there. It would be smarter to consider for example, a AC power re-generator to power your low-level source components (specifically digital DAC's, CDP's, Streamers etc.) Or,a symmetrical (Balanced) AC power supply -i.e. Equitech.

Or really nice cables including digital SPDIF cable, Ethernet, USB and analog IC's. These are proven performers that can greatly elevate the listening experience without having to hack-the-heck out of a well-designed piece of audio gear (designed by smart, capable engineers).

Just something to think about ...

pj

What I think you fail to consider is that many of these professionally designed products are designed to a price point and have lots of room for improvement. An expensive piece of gear doesn't automatically guarantee top quality parts. Sometimes the designer has had to consider user convenience or ergonomics that are a tradeoff in terms of sound quality.
 

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
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LOL. Seriously now. It must take an amazing imagination (obviously possessed) to think a back-yard mechanic type has either the skill/ability or even qualifications to either modify or make comparisons to world-class products designed by authentic engineering chops. It's simply ridiculous.

That a micro cottage-industry has taken hold is all good and fine. But seriously, men (from highly respected company's) have devoted their entire lives to electronic engineering (digital and analog circuits) are being outwitted here ?

I note that some of these 'modder's' that once claimed "drop-your-pants" great sound (from 6-months ago) now denigrate it -and all the fancy expensive mod's made to it. In fact, it can be so wishy-washy that some modder's don't even offer any more of the lauded "modifications" once claimed to be the finest ever ?

And so it's on to the next assault; new player's, new game, new opportunity, more shite, ending the same way; abruptly.
Understand that, any "modded" piece's value (resale) also drops off abruptly -staggering so actually.
I note one chap who has/had a Gustard x20pro modified (+$800. US$) advertised for $620. CA$ including shipping ($450. US$) !

Two-grand US$ investment, one-year old DAC; $450. (US$) resale/return. Nice.

Stock units rightfully command on average $700. US$ on the used market.

Guys, there are some really, really good/excellent, affordable audiophile product out there. It would be smarter to consider for example, a AC power re-generator to power your low-level source components (specifically digital DAC's, CDP's, Streamers etc.) Or,a symmetrical (Balanced) AC power supply -i.e. Equitech.

Or really nice cables including digital SPDIF cable, Ethernet, USB and analog IC's. These are proven performers that can greatly elevate the listening experience without having to hack-the-heck out of a well-designed piece of audio gear (designed by smart, capable engineers).

Just something to think about ...

pj

Agree with your comments generally. Many mods are exactly as you say.

Disagree with your comments breadth. Some are not as you say.

Disagree with your approach. "Obviously possessed".....not sure why you would ruin a pretty good post with that, but hey that's me.
 

Legolas

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Dec 27, 2015
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What I think you fail to consider is that many of these professionally designed products are designed to a price point and have lots of room for improvement. An expensive piece of gear doesn't automatically guarantee top quality parts. Sometimes the designer has had to consider user convenience or ergonomics that are a tradeoff in terms of sound quality.

Absolutely agree.

Cheap imports from Korea and China
Yes there is a cluster of interesting discrete NOS DACs flying in through customs barriers. I heard the Kitsune Holo Spring DAC at Can-Jam through the BHSE and Stax 009s with my selected tracks on a USB stick (AIFs). It was nice, but not my cup of tea for a long term what I would call a high end DAC.

A similar feeding frenzy surrounded / surrounds the Yggy on the Head-fi and Head-case forums. I have also heard that DAC, and even though it is a great 2K unit, maybe beats some 4-5K DACs, again, IMO it is not a high end DAC. The USB was weak, it was better using SPDIF input at that time. To me it still sounds synthetic and not up with the better DACs I have heard so far. Maybe coming form some DS DACs the change in timbre is what excites those users? Maybe they should here more NOS R-2R DACs to judge it a bit more?

4 years ago, I had the Audio Note DAC 4.1 Balanced, and wanted a spare DAC for my parents house to use with my Stax 007s. I read so many insanely positive giant killer reviews of the Metrum Octave Mk1 and MK2 DACs, I went and bought the MK2. Well, sorry, flat soundstage, flabby bass, dull and uninteresting presentation. OK less than 1K DAC. Yes smooth enough v many DS DACs but NOT the giant killer it was lauded as by both hifi magazines and posters. It has a ridiculously high score on Martin Collums master list of the best DACs, so much so I came to the only conclusion that list was not worth reading.

Are there a a few standout DACs , maybe a giant killer?
The thing is, many built to a budget and small casework / physical size have a weak PS, pathetic line stage and ok digital sections. It is NOT all about the chip and the conversion, far from it. A DAC is 70% a pre-amplifier, 30% DA convertor. Ignore the rest with SMPS's, Opp amps, opp amp for I/V conversion, or heaven forbid resistors, resistors at the output etc etc.

BUT I do think there are some high end DACs that stretch the imagination in pricing. And many could say do you need or want an external clock which in some cases may add jitter? Or an upsampler, I for one believe in NON up sampling and no filtering or as little filtering as possible. Does such an upsampler just allow a less aggressive filter to be used? Why not ditch the filter altogether?
But I can't hand on heart say I have heard the dCS Vivaldi, to say it is not up to scratch. It may be amazing?

I would really love to hear a giant killer DAC, maybe one time. But until then I am in the big box big parts bigger budgets which tend, in most cases to equate to better performance in general terms. :roll eyes:

YMMV and all IMO. Opinions welcome!
 

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
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As many have said a large benefit of the Select II is the volume control, it would be great for you to experiment and give us impressions regardless.

Keith,

I do not want to derail this thread but quickly, in response to your comment, this is an area I will be assessing with my new Reference Dac when I receive it later this month. I have the Soulution 501's which have a 2000 ohm input impedance and the Reference has 150 ohm output impedance (compared to 75 ohms for the Select II and a mere 2 ohms for my Soulution 721). If the Reference preamp module can best the 721's given the 501's low impedance I will be very impressed. As I understand it, a Select II replaced a Solution 725 feeding a Soulution 711 Stereo for an MSB customer down in Florida but the Select II has twice the dac modules (8 instead of 4) which results in half the output impedance versus the Reference and the 711 has 10,000 ohm input impedance compared to 2000 for the 501's. It will be a challenge for the Reference to say the least.
 

allhifi

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Jun 19, 2016
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What I think you fail to consider is that many of these professionally designed products are designed to a price point and have lots of room for improvement. An expensive piece of gear doesn't automatically guarantee top quality parts. Sometimes the designer has had to consider user convenience or ergonomics that are a tradeoff in terms of sound quality.


Price points; Berkeley 'Alpha REF-2 MQA' ($20K) and $35K dcs ?

I found the following interesting and ironic, quote :

" An expensive piece of gear doesn't automatically guarantee top quality parts."

In todays day/age it would then be picked apart mercilessly -particularly at its elevated price. I have great doubt these examples use anything but the finest parts available. But that's not the irony, this is: "top quality parts do not guarantee excellent -or even better- sound quality".
And certainly not when taken in isolation; a great electronic "part", plumped down in a circuit is no guarantee it is a good match for the circuit design. Also bear in mind, the painstaking and costly (listening) evaluations undertaken by the world's finest designs; a bevy of parts are evaluated in various (near endless) combinations before one is chosen.

Do you really think that a "modder" has either the availability (of all these parts), the necessary time to evaluate; many, many months to years, or indeed the skill and workmanship to alter critical part de-selection/replacement ?

I assure you, 99.9% mess things up; precision instrumentation is required (demanded in fact) for some of these parts to be successfully installed. A few degrees off of soldering-iron temp (and/or even recommended solder composition), the guys cigarette ash (or beer, or both) dropping on the circuit board, poor quality solder and overall 'workmanship' is often an easily recognizable feature of some of these hack-jobs.

Speaking of which, I witnessed first hand (via detailed photo's) the work of some hack on a Gustard X-20 DAC; the pulled-back (too far) wire insulation (in lazy effort not to burn it), blobs of solder on his added circuit board that looked beyond amateurish -childlike in fact. It was audiophile-cringing. It was disgraceful workmanship.

Keep things stock fella's. Or purchase another DAC. Or, experiment with cables/AC power and Isolation.


pj
 

allhifi

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2016
93
15
113
Absolutely agree.

Cheap imports from Korea and China
Yes there is a cluster of interesting discrete NOS DACs flying in through customs barriers. I heard the Kitsune Holo Spring DAC at Can-Jam through the BHSE and Stax 009s with my selected tracks on a USB stick (AIFs). It was nice, but not my cup of tea for a long term what I would call a high end DAC.

A similar feeding frenzy surrounded / surrounds the Yggy on the Head-fi and Head-case forums. I have also heard that DAC, and even though it is a great 2K unit, maybe beats some 4-5K DACs, again, IMO it is not a high end DAC. The USB was weak, it was better using SPDIF input at that time. To me it still sounds synthetic and not up with the better DACs I have heard so far. Maybe coming form some DS DACs the change in timbre is what excites those users? Maybe they should here more NOS R-2R DACs to judge it a bit more?

4 years ago, I had the Audio Note DAC 4.1 Balanced, and wanted a spare DAC for my parents house to use with my Stax 007s. I read so many insanely positive giant killer reviews of the Metrum Octave Mk1 and MK2 DACs, I went and bought the MK2. Well, sorry, flat soundstage, flabby bass, dull and uninteresting presentation. OK less than 1K DAC. Yes smooth enough v many DS DACs but NOT the giant killer it was lauded as by both hifi magazines and posters. It has a ridiculously high score on Martin Collums master list of the best DACs, so much so I came to the only conclusion that list was not worth reading.

Are there a a few standout DACs , maybe a giant killer?
The thing is, many built to a budget and small casework / physical size have a weak PS, pathetic line stage and ok digital sections. It is NOT all about the chip and the conversion, far from it. A DAC is 70% a pre-amplifier, 30% DA convertor. Ignore the rest with SMPS's, Opp amps, opp amp for I/V conversion, or heaven forbid resistors, resistors at the output etc etc.

BUT I do think there are some high end DACs that stretch the imagination in pricing. And many could say do you need or want an external clock which in some cases may add jitter? Or an upsampler, I for one believe in NON up sampling and no filtering or as little filtering as possible. Does such an upsampler just allow a less aggressive filter to be used? Why not ditch the filter altogether?
But I can't hand on heart say I have heard the dCS Vivaldi, to say it is not up to scratch. It may be amazing?

I would really love to hear a giant killer DAC, maybe one time. But until then I am in the big box big parts bigger budgets which tend, in most cases to equate to better performance in general terms. :roll eyes:

YMMV and all IMO. Opinions welcome!


Beautifully spoken. Excellent reply.

I note your (rightfully) disappointing assertion in:

" 4 years ago, I had the Audio Note DAC 4.1 Balanced, and wanted a spare DAC for my parents house to use with my Stax 007s. I read so many insanely positive giant killer reviews of the Metrum Octave Mk1 and MK2 DACs, I went and bought the MK2. Well, sorry, flat soundstage, flabby bass, dull and uninteresting presentation. OK less than 1K DAC. Yes smooth enough v many DS DACs but NOT the giant killer it was lauded as by both hifi magazines and posters. It has a ridiculously high score on Martin Collums master list of the best DACs, so much so I came to the only conclusion that list was not worth reading"

Bang-on; the seemingly inconsistent observations between reviewer's and the passionate audiophile public (i.e. us -lol) I've noted has been anything but consistently complimentary. That's why a new "rag" is required. That's why it will arrive -and couldn't arrive soon enough.
Additionally, unless you know a "poster" well -don't even entertain their remarks; there are those that ride the "it's great bandwagon" without either any verified listening skill/judgment or being entirely honest.

Forums such as this is a step in the right direction.

pj
 
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PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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Price points; Berkeley 'Alpha REF-2 MQA' ($20K) and $35K dcs ?

I found the following interesting and ironic, quote :

" An expensive piece of gear doesn't automatically guarantee top quality parts."

In todays day/age it would then be picked apart mercilessly -particularly at its elevated price. I have great doubt these examples use anything but the finest parts available. But that's not the irony, this is: "top quality parts do not guarantee excellent -or even better- sound quality".
And certainly not when taken in isolation; a great electronic "part", plumped down in a circuit is no guarantee it is a good match for the circuit design. Also bear in mind, the painstaking and costly (listening) evaluations undertaken by the world's finest designs; a bevy of parts are evaluated in various (near endless) combinations before one is chosen.

Do you really think that a "modder" has either the availability (of all these parts), the necessary time to evaluate; many, many months to years, or indeed the skill and workmanship to alter critical part de-selection/replacement ?

I assure you, 99.9% mess things up; precision instrumentation is required (demanded in fact) for some of these parts to be successfully installed. A few degrees off of soldering-iron temp (and/or even recommended solder composition), the guys cigarette ash (or beer, or both) dropping on the circuit board, poor quality solder and overall 'workmanship' is often an easily recognizable feature of some of these hack-jobs.

Speaking of which, I witnessed first hand (via detailed photo's) the work of some hack on a Gustard X-20 DAC; the pulled-back (too far) wire insulation (in lazy effort not to burn it), blobs of solder on his added circuit board that looked beyond amateurish -childlike in fact. It was audiophile-cringing. It was disgraceful workmanship.

Keep things stock fella's. Or purchase another DAC. Or, experiment with cables/AC power and Isolation.


pj

An audio buddy of mine modded his Berkeley Alpha DAC and claims it sounds at least as good as the Ref DAC. Don't know which model and I have not done the direct comparison, but he did and is very happy with his modded unit. I happened to prefer the Rossini to the Berkeley REF DAC in a direct comparison.
 

allhifi

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Jun 19, 2016
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An audio buddy of mine modded his Berkeley Alpha DAC and claims it sounds at least as good as the Ref DAC. Don't know which model and I have not done the direct comparison, but he did and is very happy with his modded unit. I happened to prefer the Rossini to the Berkeley REF DAC in a direct comparison.

With enough talent, mod's can be carefully considered; messing with a Berkeley 'Alpha" DAC however is something I'd never consider -those guys (apparently) fuss over every tiny detail. To think that inserting said (modder) part(s) without considering all other possible interactions (synergy), is a path I'd rather not travel, a near guarantee of disappointment -withstanding modder's perspective.

Then again, if it's a 15-year old piece -go "to town" on the thing.

pj
 

allhifi

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Jun 19, 2016
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Totally agree! Also flat & undynamic, uninteresting sound are signs but one has to be careful that etched detail isn't hiding fooling one into thinking the sound has a natural dynamic

I third 'the motion' -lol.

For sure, digital circuits demand the cleanest AC power possible (AC-Re-gen., Symmetrical (Balanced) AC power).
I've been saying this for 20-years (and counting) ...

pj
 

allhifi

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Jun 19, 2016
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My experience is that most PC are star grounded internally. So that the current output has less noise. But that still leaves the noise level produced internally in the digital chain intact. Once you remove that internal noise,then you can really hear how good your digital chain really is. That's my experience.

Yes. Plus, you are one of (if not absolute) the best looking 'Roger' I've ever seen !

pj
P.S> What shampoo do you use ?
 
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Legolas

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Price points;
I assure you, 99.9% mess things up; precision instrumentation is required (demanded in fact) for some of these parts to be successfully installed. A few degrees off of soldering-iron temp (and/or even recommended solder composition), the guys cigarette ash (or beer, or both) dropping on the circuit board, poor quality solder and overall 'workmanship' is often an easily recognizable feature of some of these hack-jobs.

Speaking of which, I witnessed first hand (via detailed photo's) the work of some hack on a Gustard X-20 DAC; the pulled-back (too far) wire insulation (in lazy effort not to burn it), blobs of solder on his added circuit board that looked beyond amateurish -childlike in fact. It was audiophile-cringing. It was disgraceful workmanship.

Keep things stock fella's. Or purchase another DAC. Or, experiment with cables/AC power and Isolation.


pj

Maybe, buy I modded two Audio Note Kit DACs to good effect. The last one, a 4.1 kit had the Audio Note UK digital board added, AN UK I/Vs (as the DAC 5 UK), upgraded caps on the PS, better electrolytics and film caps. Basically it took the DAC kit up to another higher level. So I disagree to an extent, you can upgrade parts for like for like spec but better quality, so not changing the circuit so much, more upgrading the parts. Also in the PS you can build an external unit with bigger power reserves, bigs cap reserves, to good effect. Obviously modding stuff does trash the resale to an extent, but if you are after high end on a budget, it can work in certain circumstances. Lampizator used to do similar things way back to various stock DACs, mainly adding a tube line stage or better parts, ditch the SMPS and pop amps etc.

I am not so sure about major circuit hacks though, you need to be sure about what you are doing. And don't forget the R&D time decent companies undertake.

Having said that, and going back to Lampizator, at that time they uncovered many hacks and basically some standard philips CD players rehoused in a fancy rebadged case for some (then) top of the line makes and x4 price. Not so sure if that happens so much now, I hope not....
 

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
518
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Price points; Berkeley 'Alpha REF-2 MQA' ($20K) and $35K dcs ?

I found the following interesting and ironic, quote :

" An expensive piece of gear doesn't automatically guarantee top quality parts."

In todays day/age it would then be picked apart mercilessly -particularly at its elevated price. I have great doubt these examples use anything but the finest parts available. But that's not the irony, this is: "top quality parts do not guarantee excellent -or even better- sound quality".
And certainly not when taken in isolation; a great electronic "part", plumped down in a circuit is no guarantee it is a good match for the circuit design. Also bear in mind, the painstaking and costly (listening) evaluations undertaken by the world's finest designs; a bevy of parts are evaluated in various (near endless) combinations before one is chosen.

Do you really think that a "modder" has either the availability (of all these parts), the necessary time to evaluate; many, many months to years, or indeed the skill and workmanship to alter critical part de-selection/replacement ?

I assure you, 99.9% mess things up; precision instrumentation is required (demanded in fact) for some of these parts to be successfully installed. A few degrees off of soldering-iron temp (and/or even recommended solder composition), the guys cigarette ash (or beer, or both) dropping on the circuit board, poor quality solder and overall 'workmanship' is often an easily recognizable feature of some of these hack-jobs.

Speaking of which, I witnessed first hand (via detailed photo's) the work of some hack on a Gustard X-20 DAC; the pulled-back (too far) wire insulation (in lazy effort not to burn it), blobs of solder on his added circuit board that looked beyond amateurish -childlike in fact. It was audiophile-cringing. It was disgraceful workmanship.

Keep things stock fella's. Or purchase another DAC. Or, experiment with cables/AC power and Isolation.

pj

Of course another approach would be to listen to the modded dac and include your observations in the analysis. Certainly a correlation exist between the resources of the dac manufacturer and the likelihood that dac mods will be beneficial but that correlation is not 1.0. To Floyd's point a realm of equipment exists at the lower price points where mods can be helpful.
 
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allhifi

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Jun 19, 2016
93
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Maybe, buy I modded two Audio Note Kit DACs to good effect. The last one, a 4.1 kit had the Audio Note UK digital board added, AN UK I/Vs (as the DAC 5 UK), upgraded caps on the PS, better electrolytics and film caps. Basically it took the DAC kit up to another higher level. So I disagree to an extent, you can upgrade parts for like for like spec but better quality, so not changing the circuit so much, more upgrading the parts. Also in the PS you can build an external unit with bigger power reserves, bigs cap reserves, to good effect. Obviously modding stuff does trash the resale to an extent, but if you are after high end on a budget, it can work in certain circumstances. Lampizator used to do similar things way back to various stock DACs, mainly adding a tube line stage or better parts, ditch the SMPS and pop amps etc.

I am not so sure about major circuit hacks though, you need to be sure about what you are doing. And don't forget the R&D time decent companies undertake.

Having said that, and going back to Lampizator, at that time they uncovered many hacks and basically some standard philips CD players rehoused in a fancy rebadged case for some (then) top of the line makes and x4 price. Not so sure if that happens so much now, I hope not....

Hi astrostar: As mentioned earlier; "with the necessary talent" (mod's can be successfully considered).

I believe you misunderstood, when you say: " .... So I disagree to an extent, you can upgrade parts for like for like spec but better quality, so not changing the circuit so much, more upgrading the parts."

A electronic part can be successfully "dropped in", yet i t does not guarantee it will be a synergistic "match" within the overall circuit architecture. In fact, quite the opposite may likely result. That was my point.

pj
 

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