MSB Select II arrival

MRJAZZ · Jun 11, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
I've had the MSB Select II in room for less than 3 days. I've heard nothing that would suggest it's not going to exceed all of my most positive expectations. I've never heard any digital close to this. but it's too soon (and is it ever the right time?) for pronouncements or anointing anything. we have enough people throwing those terms around that we don't need me to do it. and I've not heard a number of the suspects on your list such as the Aries Cerat, Origine and others. while I've heard the Vivaldi stack at shows it's been a few years now and I've not heard the v2 upgrade. and then there is context and all that so the whole 'which is best' is a troubling thing to get into. obviously I did 'vote' with my checkbook, so there is that.

and I have much work to do here to find the best of the Select II. I need to compare inputs between the XLR and RCA, then need to compare the USB and Ethernet approaches too, and then optimize the cables for each of those choices. then i'll be where I can see just what it can do.

and honestly; for me personally the only test that matters to me is the real one; how does it stack up against the truly big guns?.......my vinyl and tape. none of those other digital choices matter.

right now it's easy for me to say that what I've listened to these last three days exceeds the performance of any digital I've ever heard by a good margin, including the Select II at shows. but that does not really help us to answer your question. and even the Trinity dac did not have the same server so that is a variable.

yesterday I spent 5-6 hours straight just listening to redbook. and it was revelatory.....remarkable. and this is simply bit-perfect files from the SGM through HQ Player and Roon. it was stunning really. this is with a generic USB cable and modest interconnects. it's said that with the MSB transport and their i2S interface that discs outperform files. but they don't have an SGM/HQ Player to compare. so that also is a question I need to resolve. are discs better or not?

Would you say at this early stage in your evaluation of the Select 2 that you are at a similar level of musical enjoyment and evolvement that your vinyl and tape provide you?

Cheers.....

Priaptor · Jun 11, 2017

Steve Williams said:
Perhaps Mike

I just cannot believe that using HQP with the Select ll will give better sound but we are all waiting to hear what you say. So what are your-sampling everything to before it reaches the DAC? Are you still using upsampling to DXD as you had with the Formula

I just think that if I had the Select ll playing bit perfect files it couldn't get better than that. I would like to hear how native rate compares to upsampling via HQP

Steve

When I had my MSB V, mind you NOT with the amazing SGM server, I did tons of experimenting with HQPlayer with the V. I also have a T&A DSD DAC which if I remember correctly was one of the first if not the first project SGM did upsampling HQPlayer to the T&A with great results. The T&A is indeed marvelous upsampled with HQPlayer.

With the V I found HQPlayer in upsampling mode, no matter what filter, worse than using HQPlayer direct as a player with NO filters or JRiver. Back then Roon was at 1.2 which I did not like. Roon 1.3 has changed the dynamic for me and is now my go to player for my MSB which is no the Select II and V prior to it.

Howie

Priaptor · Jun 11, 2017

EuroDriver said:
Just like JPlay significantly improved the SQ of JRiver delivering bit perfect, HQ Player also has a very good transport implementation. How the player software access memory and deliver this to the USB controller all makes a sonic difference.

With a Renderer, there is also a microprocessor inside the module with RAM, software, and its putting out the data over a variant of I2S or something similar. So its a horse race to see which way does it cleaner / sounding better. The processor inside a USB receiver has less to do than the processor inside a Renderer

Ed

So it sounds like you are using HQPlayer the way I was, no? Not using any of Jussi's filters and just using it straight as a player to the MSB?

Howie

Priaptor · Jun 11, 2017

asiufy said:
Just FYI, a local client had the Wadax DAC/streamer/phono/server combo. He replaced that with an MSB Diamond V, and he now has a SELECT II. He wasn't into spinning CDs, though, so he didn't have the transport.

cheers,
alex

Alex

First I can't take myself away from my system.

Second, I thought the Ref10 to be a superb preamp and while I'm not ready to declare the pre stage of the Select II the "clear" winner it sure looks like I am headed in that direction.

I think in a previous post you had mentioned that you are using the Select II direct. Am I correct in that assumption?

Thanks
Howie

EuroDriver · Jun 11, 2017

Priaptor said:
Ed

So it sounds like you are using HQPlayer the way I was, no? Not using any of Jussi's filters and just using it straight as a player to the MSB?

Howie

Howie,

As a starting point we are using no HQ Player filters, upsampling or dither, and we want to get an overview of the sonic character of the various formats. Then we will do some experiments when Mike is at work and give him something to listen too when he comes home.

Good or bad, transparent or colored, it is apparent very quickly in Mike's system - as I repeatedly say, at Mike's there is no hiding place

Best

Ed

Priaptor · Jun 11, 2017

EuroDriver said:
Howie,

As a starting point we are using no HQ Player filters, upsampling or dither, and we want to get an overview of the sonic character of the various formats. Then we will do some experiments when Mike is at work and give him something to listen too when he comes home.

Good or bad, transparent or colored, it is apparent very quickly in Mike's system - as I repeatedly say, at Mike's there is no hiding place

Best

Ed

Ed

I will tell you with my system and the V that is exactly how I found HQPlayer to work best. I will try it again but as I said I found Roon 1.3 to be a huge sonic upgrade from 1.2. Possibly a trial with Roon 1.3 on your server direct into the Select II would be an interesting comparison.

Thanks for the clarification.

I look forward to Mike's experience with your server for obvious reasons.

Howie

Legolas · Jun 11, 2017

Priaptor said:
Ed

I will tell you with my system and the V that is exactly how I found HQPlayer to work best. I will try it again but as I said I found Roon 1.3 to be a huge sonic upgrade from 1.2. Possibly a trial with Roon 1.3 on your server direct into the Select II would be an interesting comparison.

Thanks for the clarification.

I look forward to Mike's experience with your server for obvious reasons.

Howie

Do you know if your MSB V up samples in the DAC itself? If not this may explain why HQ player is not an advantage re sonics.

microstrip · Jun 11, 2017

Priaptor said:
Alex

First I can't take myself away from my system.

Second, I thought the Ref10 to be a superb preamp and while I'm not ready to declare the pre stage of the Select II the "clear" winner it sure looks like I am headed in that direction.

I think in a previous post you had mentioned that you are using the Select II direct. Am I correct in that assumption?

Thanks
Howie

I am being going back and forth on this aspect for a few months considering the Vivaldi and the ARC REF40 and still did not arrive to a firm conclusion ... This weekend the DAC was driving the REF150SE directly!

Mike Lavigne · Jun 11, 2017

MRJAZZ said:
Would you say at this early stage in your evaluation of the Select 2 that you are at a similar level of musical enjoyment and evolvement that your vinyl and tape provide you?

Cheers.....

sorry for the delay in my response, just went for a nice hike with my daughter on this beautiful afternoon.

now you are delving into the real question; one I've not yet explored as I'm honeymooning with the Select II. in an earlier post in this thread I asked a couple of rhetorical questions about what I was hearing from the Select II......

is this direct to disc vinyl? is this tape? I don't know how to categorize this. so I won't. i'll just enjoy it.

.......and that is where I'm at right now. if you drove me to the wall and threatened me with bodily harm here is what I would say. I don't think that what I am hearing has the emotional connection that my vinyl or tape has. it has 'almost' everything else. and maybe some listeners might not value that emotional connection like myself.

when I have visitors and I start playing vinyl or tape something happens. we go someplace.....special. I could list a few Lps or tapes and by doing that I get this emotional rush of memory and I'm affected. don't get me wrong; I am awed by the performance I'm hearing, but does it touch me in the same way? I cannot yet say that.

it's not that there is an absence of emotional connection from the Select II, just different in apparent degrees so far. I don't want to leave any sort of impression there is something missing, since that is not how I feel. it just does not quite carry you away in the same sense as the analog in my system consistently does so well.

but.......we are not all the way there yet with the Select II. it will get better. and we have done zero direct comparisons with analog.

so these ideas are pre-mature. I am answering as best I can.

Priaptor · Jun 11, 2017

microstrip said:
I am being going back and forth on this aspect for a few months considering the Vivaldi and the ARC REF40 and still did not arrive to a firm conclusion ... This weekend the DAC was driving the REF150SE directly!

I hear you. My testing going back forth today is leaning me to direct into my GS150. I'm finding tighter bass, more air and spatial cues going direct. There is a song from (https://trptk.com/product/trptk-sessions-meryl-a-bit-of-yellow-download) in DXD where I can literally hear the singer gyrating around the mic. Not so when going through the REF10. I recently retubed my REF10 and they have 250 hours so I'm sure all is burned in. I just think the preamp stage of the Select II is that good.

Legolas · Jun 11, 2017

Priaptor said:
I hear you. My testing going back forth today is leaning me to direct into my GS150. I'm finding tighter bass, more air and spatial cues going direct. There is a song from (https://trptk.com/product/trptk-sessions-meryl-a-bit-of-yellow-download) in DXD where I can literally hear the singer gyrating around the mic. Not so when going through the REF10. I recently retubed my REF10 and they have 250 hours so I'm sure all is burned in. I just think the preamp stage of the Select II is that good.

I don't think the Select has a pre-amp as such, more direct from the discrete board.

I tried with and without a pre-amp in my (non MSB) system, and decided direct sounded best. It was more detailed and faster, more 3D. I think it comes down (a lot) to the output impedance of the line stage in the DAC and if the power supply to it can drive the interconnects. Some DACs have fairly basic opp amps or buffer stages so those will struggle for sure. The longer the interconnects and the lower the input impedance at the power amp, the harder to get it to match, and the resultant phase / frequency shift leaving a thin and hollow sound. And of course, some DACs may generally fit into a certain system with some extra body or taming that a tubed pre-amplifiers line stage can bring to the table.

asiufy · Jun 11, 2017

Priaptor said:
Alex

First I can't take myself away from my system.

Second, I thought the Ref10 to be a superb preamp and while I'm not ready to declare the pre stage of the Select II the "clear" winner it sure looks like I am headed in that direction.

I think in a previous post you had mentioned that you are using the Select II direct. Am I correct in that assumption?

Thanks
Howie

Howie,

What are you doing here in WBF? Go back to that awesome system, man

Kidding hehehe

You're right, the REF10 is a standout, truly a superb piece. I'm actually listening to it right now

I haven't put it against the SELECT II's internal pre, so I can't comment on that specifically.

What I do know is that we've demoed the SELECT II many times, here in the store and in people's homes, and more often than not, the SELECT II direct was better, and not by a small margin. Please notice this is through no fault of the preamp being compared to, but more of an inherent quality/benefit of the SELECT II... And again, we've only used a small selection of amps, no tubes for instance, so I don't know how the SELECT II will behave driving various directly...

cheers,
alex

microstrip · Jun 11, 2017

Priaptor said:
I hear you. My testing going back forth today is leaning me to direct into my GS150. I'm finding tighter bass, more air and spatial cues going direct. There is a song from (https://trptk.com/product/trptk-sessions-meryl-a-bit-of-yellow-download) in DXD where I can literally hear the singer gyrating around the mic. Not so when going through the REF10. I recently retubed my REF10 and they have 250 hours so I'm sure all is burned in. I just think the preamp stage of the Select II is that good.

What puzzled me most were the string sections in an orchestra -e.g. Bartok Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, F. Reiner, JVC XRCD. The direct connection had more detail and air - we can expect it, but also much more three dimensional, although lacking some weight.

Curiously this only happened with the Audio Research REF150SE, all other amplifiers I have used with the Vivaldi (tube or solid state) sounded significantly better with the preamplifier. Did you ever compare the REF150SE with the REF75SE? I have found that 99.99% of the time peak power is bellow 18W - and surely not for more than five minutes.

Priaptor · Jun 11, 2017

microstrip said:
What puzzled me most were the string sections in an orchestra -e.g. Bartok Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, F. Reiner, JVC XRCD. The direct connection had more detail and air - we can expect it, but also much more three dimensional, although lacking some weight.

Curiously this only happened with the Audio Research REF150SE, all other amplifiers I have used with the Vivaldi (tube or solid state) sounded significantly better with the preamplifier. Did you ever compare the REF150SE with the REF75SE? I have found that 99.99% of the time peak power is bellow 18W - and surely not for more than five minutes.

I used to own the REF75 that I used with KT150s as that was the amp Carl recommended with his Concert Grands. That had replaced my Ref250. The GS150 I found superior to the REF75 but have never had the opportunity to use any direct with the Select as they are all gone now

sbo6 · Jun 11, 2017

Priaptor said:
Unlike the T&A I found applying any kind of upsampling, PCM or DSD with HQPlayer to the MSB V took away some of the magic (for me at least) and I wound up going back to providing the V with a direct data stream using my microRendu using either DLNA or Roon OR my heavily modded server with JRiver.

Howie

Hi Howie,

Can you comment on the sonic differences between the microRendu using either DLNA or Roon OR my heavily modded server with JRiver?

Steve

sbo6 · Jun 11, 2017

Steve Williams said:
I just can help but think that playing native rate with that DAC will be as good or better than with the SGM. Only my guess but I'd love to hear your impressions

I'm curious to underdstand why you'd think that.

MRJAZZ · Jun 11, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
sorry for the delay in my response, just went for a nice hike with my daughter on this beautiful afternoon.

now you are delving into the real question; one I've not yet explored as I'm honeymooning with the Select II. in an earlier post in this thread I asked a couple of rhetorical questions about what I was hearing from the Select II......

.......and that is where I'm at right now. if you drove me to the wall and threatened me with bodily harm here is what I would say. I don't think that what I am hearing has the emotional connection that my vinyl or tape has. it has 'almost' everything else. and maybe some listeners might not value that emotional connection like myself.

when I have visitors and I start playing vinyl or tape something happens. we go someplace.....special. I could list a few Lps or tapes and by doing that I get this emotional rush of memory and I'm affected. don't get me wrong; I am awed by the performance I'm hearing, but does it touch me in the same way? I cannot yet say that.

it's not that there is an absence of emotional connection from the Select II, just different in apparent degrees so far. I don't want to leave any sort of impression there is something missing, since that is not how I feel. it just does not quite carry you away in the same sense as the analog in my system consistently does so well.

but.......we are not all the way there yet with the Select II. it will get better. and we have done zero direct comparisons with analog.

so these ideas are pre-mature. I am answering as best I can.

Thanks for the feed back. It's still early days with your Select and as you have already said , it will get better, in fact I suspect after you get things sorted out with renderer versus server, a proper USB cable (Sablon ,etc) , and other cabling + more burn in , you will look back at your early evaluations and just chuckle with the realization that you had no idea how good it would turn out. Enjoy the ride....
Cheers.....

Priaptor · Jun 11, 2017

sbo6 said:
Hi Howie,

Can you comment on the sonic differences between the microRendu using either DLNA or Roon OR my heavily modded server with JRiver?

Steve

Hi Steve,

It looks like we have similar modded servers. I too have the JCAT V2. I pretty much gave up on Roon and the microRendu and was having issues with DLNA on the uR until version 2.5 of their software.

Once 2.5 came out I decided to try DLNA with the uR which worked fine, no more pops with DSD or stops. I felt it was now as good as my server and for whatever reason I tried ROON which I hadn't really tried since 1.2 as I didn't like the player with 1.2. I was very pleasantly surprised to find that my Uptone LPS-1/microRendu as a Roon endpoint with the newest software sounded better than anything I had ever fed my MSB V. It's noise floor for me was the biggest standout. I also found a slight improvement in depth. I have been using this as my go to since receiving the uR software upgrade.

sbo6 · Jun 11, 2017

Priaptor said:
Hi Steve,

It looks like we have similar modded servers. I too have the JCAT V2. I pretty much gave up on Roon and the microRendu and was having issues with DLNA on the uR until version 2.5 of their software.

Once 2.5 came out I decided to try DLNA with the uR which worked fine, no more pops with DSD or stops. I felt it was now as good as my server and for whatever reason I tried ROON which I hadn't really tried since 1.2 as I didn't like the player with 1.2. I was very pleasantly surprised to find that my Uptone LPS-1/microRendu as a Roon endpoint with the newest software sounded better than anything I had ever fed my MSB V. It's noise floor for me was the biggest standout. I also found a slight improvement in depth. I have been using this as my go to since receiving the uR software upgrade.

Thanks Howie, good info for sure. I assume no need for the JCAT V2 any more since you'd be CAT5 out to the urendu, correct?

joaovieira · Jun 11, 2017

sbo6 said:
Hi Howie,

Can you comment on the sonic differences between the microRendu using either DLNA or Roon OR my heavily modded server with JRiver?

Steve

Steve, as I know we have the same Formula Dac, let me share my impressions with the mRendu.
I use it in the NAA mode with Roon / HQplayer. And RoonReady mode, Roon only.

The first is more refined, more silence, but less dynamic than Roon only. This mode seems to add steroids to the sound.
But I am still breaking in the dac, now I have about 200h.
If I get more dynamic in NAA mode, it will be the best choice.

MSB Select II arrival

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