MSB Select II arrival

microstrip · Jun 22, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
+1 on the resolution with vinyl.

I would say that vinyl has quite a bit greater levels of micro-dynamic shading and nuance than digital which are musically significant. digital has greater macro dynamics. my opinion is that how our senses judge degrees of reality are those micro-dynamic stand the hairs up things, that whole 'darwin' factor in our dna.
(...)

A good question is that if it is 'darwin' factor in our dna or just two generations of training listening to analog with the help of our systems ...

Tony Faulkner conducted listening tests of piano playing in a recording studio and surprisingly found that listeners preferred the sound of a piano being being played through a tape loop than from the direct feed.

Anyway, your Mendelssohn should have sounded great - I only have the normal Decca LP and it sounds fantastic.

microstrip · Jun 22, 2017

bonzo75 said:
One that sounds same as vinyl...exists in perfect theory

No, according to your definition in "perfect theory" it should sound better than vinyl ...

spiritofmusic · Jun 22, 2017

Hmm, "is it live or is it Memorex?"
Obviously, tape is more live than, ahem, live

Mike Lavigne · Jun 22, 2017

microstrip said:
A good question is that if it is 'darwin' factor in our dna or just two generations of training listening to analog with the help of our systems ...

Tony Faulkner conducted listening tests of piano playing in a recording studio and surprisingly found that listeners preferred the sound of a piano being being played through a tape loop than from the direct feed.

Anyway, your Mendelssohn should have sounded great - I only have the normal Decca LP and it sounds fantastic.

I get your point, but respectfully disagree.

when we listened to "ROSTROPOVICH Dutilleux & Lutoslawski Cello Concertos S-37146 Stereo", last night there was an otherworldly level of micro-dynamic energy and nuance that takes you on this magic carpet ride of beautiful confusion and chaos, assisted no doubt, by a dram or two of Lagavulin. but this recording goes to a place where your senses take over from your conscious thought and you are guided to the 'happy place' by nature. you have no road map in your head as to what sort of musical thing this might be, but it brings pleasure. it connects.

that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

a word of caution about this recording. I acquired it 4 years ago on the recommendation of Joel Durand, who composes stuff not unlike this. but at that time, on my system and to where I was myself, it was just noise. I could not get far into it. but now, whether it's me or my system, it's a thrill ride and I love it.

so maybe it's not for everyone.

microstrip · Jun 22, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
I get your point, but respectfully disagree.

when we listened to "ROSTROPOVICH Dutilleux & Lutoslawski Cello Concertos S-37146 Stereo", last night there was an otherworldly level of micro-dynamic energy and nuance that takes you on this magic carpet ride of beautiful confusion and chaos, assisted no doubt, by a dram or two of Lagavulin. but this recording goes to a place where your senses take over from your conscious thought and you are guided to the 'happy place' by nature. you have no road map in your head as to what sort of musical thing this might be, but it brings pleasure. it connects.
(...)
that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

a word of caution about this recording. I acquired it 4 years ago on the recommendation of Joel Durand, who composes stuff not unlike this. but at that time, on my system and to where I was myself, it was just noise. I could not get far into it. but now, whether it's me or my system, it's a thrill ride and I love it.

so maybe it's not for everyone.

OK, you won - I would also change my opinion for 10 ml of Lagavulin ...

I understand you - I have a similar story about Shostakovitch symphonies. I never enjoyed them in LP. Started loving them conducted by Bernard Haitink with the Concertgebouw Orchestra in CD played through Quad ESL63's - a risky affair! And today I have my current speakers because one day I listened to my CD of the 5th played through them ... We started listening and we could not stop until it ended ...

BTW, I would also probably change my opinion if I owned a few master tapes of these recordings ... Or Simon Rattle Mahler's with the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra ...

cat6man · Jun 22, 2017

astrostar59 said:
I thought the MicroRendu was just changing the data format from Ethernet to USB to then enter the DAC (and avoid noise from the USB port in the PC)?

My tests proved to me moving away from USB to Ethernet was better, less digital hash and more pure music, super smooth. Actually some of the detail I thought I was perceiving with USB was in fact exaggerated leading edges. Now they are gone, I can hear more detail and micro detail (plankton) but it sounds much more natural. I can also listen at much higher volumes (If I choose) with zero fatigue which is a good sign for digital.

It depends on what mode the microRendu is set to. In DLNA or squeezebox mode, the rendering function is done on the microRendu.
In NAA mode, the renderer is done in HQPLAYER.

In both cases, the microRendu receives ethernet and outputs usb but they do not sound the same to me, as described earlier, as even with no signal processing (zero upscaling and dither), the NAA is clearly superior.
I believe in another thread someone noted that they felt the totaldac server was matched (or beaten) by the microRendu in dlna mode, but that the upgraded totaldac server jumpted ahead again. He reported the upgraded totaldac server to have many of the attributes I heard in the microRendu when moving to HQPlayer/NAA mode.

So I guess the message is optimization of the microRendu is critical (I use NAA mode, the latest v2.5 firmware and a LPS-1 power supply) and reports of microRendu performance will vary (no suprise) with system configuration.
A new clock upgrade for the microRendu is also in the works, as well as a further optimized motherboard/hardware setup to be called the ultraRendu (not yet available).

By the way, more natural sounding detail (as you described) and deeper dives into the decay of notes is how I would describe the results going to NAA mode.
I feel subjectively that it slows music down as I'm hearing more detail and decay and silence.

PeterA · Jun 22, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
I get your point, but respectfully disagree.

when we listened to "ROSTROPOVICH Dutilleux & Lutoslawski Cello Concertos S-37146 Stereo", last night there was an otherworldly level of micro-dynamic energy and nuance that takes you on this magic carpet ride of beautiful confusion and chaos, assisted no doubt, by a dram or two of Lagavulin. but this recording goes to a place where your senses take over from your conscious thought and you are guided to the 'happy place' by nature. you have no road map in your head as to what sort of musical thing this might be, but it brings pleasure. it connects.

View attachment 33543

that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

a word of caution about this recording. I acquired it 4 years ago on the recommendation of Joel Durand, who composes stuff not unlike this. but at that time, on my system and to where I was myself, it was just noise. I could not get far into it. but now, whether it's me or my system, it's a thrill ride and I love it.

so maybe it's not for everyone.

I love this recording and hearing it on my system made quite an impression on my friend Al M. Great cello sound and a truly remarkable recording. I am still struggling with side 2, to be honest.

asiufy · Jun 22, 2017

PeterA said:
I love this recording and hearing it on my system made quite an impression on my friend Al M. Great cello sound and a truly remarkable recording. I am still struggling with side 2, to be honest.

OMG, what a fantastic album! This is my kind of stuff

I haven't even done Side 2 yet!

It's on Tidal, so should be easy for folks to check it out!

https://tidal.com/album/1363068

Priaptor · Jun 22, 2017

cat6man said:
It depends on what mode the microRendu is set to. In DLNA or squeezebox mode, the rendering function is done on the microRendu.
In NAA mode, the renderer is done in HQPLAYER.

In both cases, the microRendu receives ethernet and outputs usb but they do not sound the same to me, as described earlier, as even with no signal processing (zero upscaling and dither), the NAA is clearly superior.
I believe in another thread someone noted that they felt the totaldac server was matched (or beaten) by the microRendu in dlna mode, but that the upgraded totaldac server jumpted ahead again. He reported the upgraded totaldac server to have many of the attributes I heard in the microRendu when moving to HQPlayer/NAA mode.

So I guess the message is optimization of the microRendu is critical (I use NAA mode, the latest v2.5 firmware and a LPS-1 power supply) and reports of microRendu performance will vary (no suprise) with system configuration.
A new clock upgrade for the microRendu is also in the works, as well as a further optimized motherboard/hardware setup to be called the ultraRendu (not yet available).

By the way, more natural sounding detail (as you described) and deeper dives into the decay of notes is how I would describe the results going to NAA mode.
I feel subjectively that it slows music down as I'm hearing more detail and decay and silence.

Cat

I am using the mircroRendu with an LPS -1 and totally agree with you. With my V and V2.3 the pops on DSD and the crashes I was getting with older versions of Roon and HQPlayer turned me off. Now with all fixed with 2.5 and newest versions of Roon and HQPlayer it's revelatory.

It's great news for Jesus and his upcoming upgrade and ultraRendu and the Uptone LPS-1 is superb.

No matter how impressed I am now I told Vince from MSB I will keep an open mind when their new renderer comes out BUT would love for them to include NAA on it as well rather than just DLNA and Roon Endpoint.

While trying NAA on the Select was on my list for comparisons and setup I truly didn't expect this level of improvement over Roon or DLNA.

Al M. · Jun 22, 2017

PeterA said:
I love this recording and hearing it on my system made quite an impression on my friend Al M.

Yes, it did!

Great cello sound and a truly remarkable recording. I am still struggling with side 2, to be honest.

I love side 2! (But then, I am an avantgarde freak.)

Jeffy · Jun 23, 2017

Al, I like avantgarde classical. John Cage, Xenakis, Stockhausen, Ligeti, Varese, Chavez, etc. The only avantgarde Jazz I like is on ECM and Paul Bley. The best Jeff

cat6man · Jun 23, 2017

Priaptor said:
Cat

I am using the mircroRendu with an LPS -1 and totally agree with you. With my V and V2.3 the pops on DSD and the crashes I was getting with older versions of Roon and HQPlayer turned me off. Now with all fixed with 2.5 and newest versions of Roon and HQPlayer it's revelatory.

It's great news for Jesus and his upcoming upgrade and ultraRendu and the Uptone LPS-1 is superb.

No matter how impressed I am now I told Vince from MSB I will keep an open mind when their new renderer comes out BUT would love for them to include NAA on it as well rather than just DLNA and Roon Endpoint.

While trying NAA on the Select was on my list for comparisons and setup I truly didn't expect this level of improvement over Roon or DLNA.

Very interesting Priaptor. I need to do some research myself to find out exactly what this 'renderer' functionality constitutes. I guess one theory is that it is not the signal processing algorithms specifically but the noise that is reduced by having less processing done by the microRendu in the NAA mode.

While I know I can't afford it, I'd love to get to a show where I can hear this Select II someday. It will be interesting to see if Vince finds added value in NAA mode.

joaovieira · Jun 23, 2017

Roon by itself is so much better now than it was. But NAA is more refined and silent.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 23, 2017

cat6man said:
Very interesting Priaptor. I need to do some research myself to find out exactly what this 'renderer' functionality constitutes. I guess one theory is that it is not the signal processing algorithms specifically but the noise that is reduced by having less processing done by the microRendu in the NAA mode.

While I know I can't afford it, I'd love to get to a show where I can hear this Select II someday. It will be interesting to see if Vince finds added value in NAA mode.

I don't know where you are cat6man, but if you get to the Seattle area you would be welcome to come and listen to the Select II.

better than any show conditions.

Priaptor · Jun 23, 2017

cat6man said:
Very interesting Priaptor. I need to do some research myself to find out exactly what this 'renderer' functionality constitutes. I guess one theory is that it is not the signal processing algorithms specifically but the noise that is reduced by having less processing done by the microRendu in the NAA mode.

While I know I can't afford it, I'd love to get to a show where I can hear this Select II someday. It will be interesting to see if Vince finds added value in NAA mode.

I have been in touch with Vince about trying to get their engineers to try include NAA into the renderer, if possible, given my findings. I have been a big fan of MSB for many years and have given them many recommendations in the past, some of which they just can't do but happily some they did as a result of my and others comments and findings so I am hoping and keeping my fingers crossed that NAA can be included in their renderer.

Priaptor · Jun 23, 2017

joaovieira said:
Roon by itself is so much better now than it was. But NAA is more refined and silent.

Totally agree. I have been on the Server merry go round since all this stuff began and when Roon was first released, I was one of the first to jump aboard, only to be totally disappointment by their player ultimately using WDM interface (horrible) to JRiver. I ultimately just left Roon for JRiver and my server, until Roon+HQPlayer became a reality. Of course, that wasn't smooth sailing either in the beginning which led me back to JRiver as I thought the hassle of HQPlayer with Roon and constant crashes, despite the improvement in sound wasn't worth it.

With the release of Roon 1.3 it has come a long way, IMHO, and is obviously being adopted by more and more with more and more accolades, HOWEVER, HQPlayer as you point out, is a more refined player. With the DACs I have owned from MSB, there is no bigger difference than with the Select.

I think if Mike was ever exposed to anything but what SGM is delivering to his Select's USB port (which is via HQPlayer) he would be shocked in a negative way.

I will be the first to admit, I am not an opera fan, but yesterday I put on RCA's Nilsson DSD Puccini's Turandot reissue and while I am told there are much better releases, I was absolutely blown away, more like mesmerized at what I was hearing and literally couldn't move an inch in my chair until the last note. This combination of DAC and HQPlayer is just mind blowing to me. I can't get enough.

Al M. · Jun 23, 2017

Jeffy said:
Al, I like avantgarde classical. John Cage, Xenakis, Stockhausen, Ligeti, Varese,

All excellent!

You might be interested in my Stockhausen page:
http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/stockhausenreviews.htm

Chavez, etc.

Heard only one piece by Chavez, liked it.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 23, 2017

Priaptor said:
Totally agree. I have been on the Server merry go round since all this stuff began and when Roon was first released, I was one of the first to jump aboard, only to be totally disappointment by their player ultimately using WDM interface (horrible) to JRiver. I ultimately just left Roon for JRiver and my server, until Roon+HQPlayer became a reality. Of course, that wasn't smooth sailing either in the beginning which led me back to JRiver as I thought the hassle of HQPlayer with Roon and constant crashes, despite the improvement in sound wasn't worth it.

With the release of Roon 1.3 it has come a long way, IMHO, and is obviously being adopted by more and more with more and more accolades, HOWEVER, HQPlayer as you point out, is a more refined player. With the DACs I have owned from MSB, there is no bigger difference than with the Select.

I think if Mike was ever exposed to anything but what SGM is delivering to his Select's USB port (which is via HQPlayer) he would be shocked in a negative way.

I will be the first to admit, I am not an opera fan, but yesterday I put on RCA's Nilsson DSD Puccini's Turandot reissue and while I am told there are much better releases, I was absolutely blown away, more like mesmerized at what I was hearing and literally couldn't move an inch in my chair until the last note. This combination of DAC and HQPlayer is just mind blowing to me. I can't get enough.

and as I sit here at work, the SGM elves are busy tapping away remotely (from the Netherlands) giving me a few new wrinkles to try tonight.

Priaptor · Jun 23, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
and as I sit here at work, the SGM elves are busy tapping away remotely (from the Netherlands) giving me a few new wrinkles to try tonight.

For obvious reasons I am following your progress through this journey with SGM. No doubt in my mind their "engine" of Roon-->HQPlayer is the correct one.

I will be surprised if anything but totally native data stream into the Select will sound better. I look forward to your findings. I just can't imagine but an open minded.

I am assuming they will be testing different combos on you asking for your "blinded" opinion. If that is the case I would recommend shutting off the front lights on the Select if they are planning on doing any upsampling with HQPlayer as it will introduce a variable otherwise not known. Just a suggestion.

Looking forward to your findings.

microstrip · Jun 23, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
and as I sit here at work, the SGM elves are busy tapping away remotely (from the Netherlands) giving me a few new wrinkles to try tonight.

Do they have access to a Sellect II? Or are they just doing theoretical work?

MSB Select II arrival

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