MSB Select II arrival

PeterA · Jun 28, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Ked, 45s always superior to 33s, certainly in terms of bass and lack of end groove distortion
My point was really that if the final result of this Select experience is yet another dac that's gets close to vinyl, maybe the closest yet, but still can't do those magic things that good vinyl is STILL so good at, then it'll really only be of interest as a trial that confirms what vinylphiles have always contended
Ked, you know what it was like at Bill's enjoying and complimenting on how affable digital was on the SGM on GG and Dac8 that day, but the moment Bill put Nirvana on his Kuzma, we were all transported
Nothing I've read in Mike's ongoing reports suggests the Select II will "transport" him like his vinyl does
At this stage in digital's evolution and refinement and this level of tech and price, w all the arguments we have from digital's proponents about it's superiority, shouldn't the Select be further along than "hot on the heels" of analog?

Marc, I think Mike's trials and the sharing of his impressions, regardless of the analog/digital polemic you encourage, are interesting in and of themselves, but perhaps particularly to digital only guys. One one level, who cares which format is subjectively preferred by a few audiophiles? Vinylphiles don't need this confirmation. Nor do I think digital guys do. The more important issues I think are these: 1. Which format holds the music one already has or is interested in getting? 2. Which format does one want to deal with or own, either on a cost, convenience, aesthetic, or other basis?

Whether Mike ultimately prefers his turntable or DAC will certainly be interesting, especially because of the reasons that I hope he describes, and I look forward to reading his continuing impressions, but it really only tells us about what Mike prefers, nothing more really. I agree with you that Mike seems to be in a fairly unique position to be able and willing to do these types of comparisons at the highest level. For getting a glimpse into that world by reading these threads, we should all be grateful, because we surely benefit.

spiritofmusic · Jun 28, 2017

Sure Peter
I'll find it fascinating that if even at this exalted level (both bleeding edge tech and $ signs), w maybe Mike tricking things out w the best wire and isolation, digital may still lag behind on what me and you find so transcendental when listening to vinyl
Sorry if I came across as a bit unsubtle LOL
I'm actually pretty interested, certainly more practically, in the Schiit Yggdrasil review thread going up soon
OT over

PeterA · Jun 28, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Sure Peter
I'll find it fascinating that if even at this exalted level (both bleeding edge tech and $ signs), w maybe Mike tricking things out w the best wire and isolation, digital may still lag behind on what me and you find so transcendental when listening to vinyl
Sorry if I came across as a bit unsubtle LOL
I'm actually pretty interested, certainly more practically, in the Schiit Yggdrasil review thread going up soon
OT over

Marc, you may have missed my point. Sorry if I was not clear. What I am trying to say is that Mike may or may not prefer one to the other. Regardless, it tells me nothing about which I may prefer, either in his system or elsewhere. I found the Vivaldi in Madfloyd's system transcendental once when I heard it there. I actually preferred it to his analog during one particular listening session. Just one data point among countless others. The thing is, most of my LPs can't be heard on the Vivaldi, and most of what we heard on the Vivaldi can not be played on the Kronos. So then, it came down to the music we wanted to hear.

Mike is in a good position to hear a few selections mastered from the same source, so that will be fascinating to read about, but it won't end any of the debates.

KeithR · Jun 28, 2017

ack said:
To us techies, the fact that USB is riddled with noise is a well-known fact. There is an extensive wiki page on USB, which explains its entire complex operation, though it does not discuss noise characteristics the way we'd want to. But if a DAC designer found ways to contain the noise, good on them - but I'd like to see real data; talk is cheap.

So why does the manufacturer of your DAC recommend its USB interface box for best sound?

spiritofmusic · Jun 28, 2017

Peter, there have been times listening at Blue58 to his SGM/Dac8 that has rivalled, and in some critical ways, exceeded some of the best analog I've heard
Particularly in the areas of near zero noise floor and flow
I still find the tonal density BD timbral accuracy of analog impossible to match with digital
But the SGM makes a really convincing case to at least tick some boxes that used to exclusively be the sole preserve of the best analog
For those reasons alone I'm very much the SGM fan

Legolas · Jun 28, 2017

KeithR said:
So why does the manufacturer of your DAC recommend its USB interface box for best sound?

That may be the same reason other manufactures do it as well, because of the 'need' to send data rates above 192K. With the Select II it is finally possible to feed it Redbook intact, and without later being up sampled inside the DAC.

ack · Jun 28, 2017

KeithR said:
So why does the manufacturer of your DAC recommend its USB interface box for best sound?

My DAC does not have a USB input, thank God. Berkeley sell a USB-to-AES/EBU bridge in an attempt to contain the noise, and when I tried the Aurender W20 through it, it just could not come close to the sound from the transport - veiled. I do intend to audition the Baetis Ref2 through its dedicated AES/EBU output off the motherboard, and they are the only ones who dare spend the money to build a custom motherboard; I have a feeling it will be a killer. But then again, I can't see how even that can match a slaved transport (which is how I will run it when I get the new Spectral DAC, due for release in the next century or so), but we'll see.

bonzo75 · Jun 28, 2017

ack said:
My DAC does not have a USB input, thank God. Berkeley sell a USB-to-AES/EBU bridge in an attempt to contain the noise, and when I tried the Aurender W20 through it, it just could not come close to the sound from the transport - veiled. I do intend to audition the Baetis Ref2 through its dedicated AES/EBU output off the motherboard, and they are the only ones who dare spend the money to build a custom motherboard; I have a feeling it will be a killer. But then again, I can't see how even that can match a slaved transport (which is how I will run it when I get the new Spectral DAC, due for release in the next century or so), but we'll see.

Vivaldi also sounds better with the dCS bridge through its AES/BEU. You can play much louder

ack · Jun 28, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Vivaldi also sounds better with the dCS bridge through its AES/BEU. You can play much louder

That's what I am hearing from others as well.

microstrip · Jun 28, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Vivaldi also sounds better with the dCS bridge through its AES/BEU. You can play much louder

The DCS Network Bridge includes clock inputs and the Vivaldi DAC has a Word Clock output on 1x BNC connector. This means that you are using the Vivaldi DAC clock as a master when you use the Network Bridge. Or we can even use and external DCS clock.

This is not typical AES/EBU use.

Mdp632 · Jun 28, 2017

ack said:
My DAC does not have a USB input, thank God. Berkeley sell a USB-to-AES/EBU bridge in an attempt to contain the noise, and when I tried the Aurender W20 through it, it just could not come close to the sound from the transport - veiled. I do intend to audition the Baetis Ref2 through its dedicated AES/EBU output off the motherboard, and they are the only ones who dare spend the money to build a custom motherboard; I have a feeling it will be a killer. But then again, I can't see how even that can match a slaved transport (which is how I will run it when I get the new Spectral DAC, due for release in the next century or so), but we'll see.

With regards to the slaved transport. What exactly do you mean by this? Are you referring to a DAC manufacturer that uses a propertiary connection from the DAC to the disc transport? E.g. IS2 or a manufacture's properitary connection? In other words, not a typical SPDIF or AES connection?

ack · Jun 28, 2017

Mdp632 said:
With regards to the slaved transport. What exactly do you mean by this? Are you referring to a DAC manufacturer that uses a propertiary connection from the DAC to the disc transport? E.g. IS2 or a manufacture's properitary connection? In other words, not a typical SPDIF or AES connection?

Yes on the highlighted. Slave == using the DAC clock to drive the transport's data transfer - aka Wadia ClockLink, Spectral's Spectrallink, and many others like it. Simply put, if the transport needs a clock - and it absolutely does - it's about using the one from the DAC for data transfer. The bigger trick is to use a SINGLE clock throughout the chain, including the CD ROM... I hope the dcs does all that, but need to investigate. I mentioned elsewhere that the Spectral 4000SL and 4000SV use a single clock throughout -which means, they have to manage the CD ROM's servos as well... tough to do, and you can only do it with custom or modified CD ROMs; question is, who's got the balls and skill to do it.

Bottom line: can you beat ONE clock throughout, especially when different parts "beat" at different rates... think about it. I bet dcs does this with their full Vivaldi stack.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 28, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
For me, I'm only interested in one thing from Mike and his report on the Select II
I'll wait a few dozen pages more, and further evolution of his system
I'll wait until he's maxxed out the Select w the Powerbases, whatever server or Ethernet renderer he deems best, whatever USB or Ethernet connection he feels most optimal, all loaded on Taiko Tanas
At that point I'll want to know from him whether this pre eminent SOTA dac in the marketplace, maxxed to the max, w serious investment put into it (maybe 30-50% more than his analog front end), matches or exceeds his vinyl or tape
Not whether it gets close, or v close, or means he can listen to digital all day
My Eera cdp gets close to my vinyl, and I can listen to it all day, as does the SGM/Dac8 I'm v familiar with it, but there still remains a deficit to analog
This is all nearly four decades on from the advent of digital (will be once Mike goes thru these maxxed out options), and it won't be good enough if it falls short for proponents to say digital still needs "catch up time"
Four decades of evolution, serious money and R&D thrown at digital, cost no object bleeding edge tech, and ability to squeeze the digital lemon means this optimal solution needs to play analog at its own game for me to feel Mike's experience is anything other than "digital is getting closer"
Getting closer at these exhalted levels doesn't mean that much
Matching or exceeding, at all aspects that vinyl is pre eminent like verve, density, air, dynamics, is all that really matters
Otherwise in 2017 plus, if this maxxed out maxxed out digital solution still can't outmuscle a format and tech years and years past its established optimal age, then that will really be saying something
Sorry to put you on the spot Mike LOL, this post is meant in good humour
But as someone who is going to places v few if any others are doing w your digital, and as someone who's flown the flag for analog as pre eminent all these years, I'm looking forward to your final verdicts in months to come
The words "it's close, v close, but in the final analysis, vinyl still..." or "guys, I never thought I'd say it, but digital finally..." will be v interesting to read
No pressure, Mike

PeterA said:
Marc, I think Mike's trials and the sharing of his impressions, regardless of the analog/digital polemic you encourage, are interesting in and of themselves, but perhaps particularly to digital only guys. One one level, who cares which format is subjectively preferred by a few audiophiles? Vinylphiles don't need this confirmation. Nor do I think digital guys do. The more important issues I think are these: 1. Which format holds the music one already has or is interested in getting? 2. Which format does one want to deal with or own, either on a cost, convenience, aesthetic, or other basis?

Whether Mike ultimately prefers his turntable or DAC will certainly be interesting, especially because of the reasons that I hope he describes, and I look forward to reading his continuing impressions, but it really only tells us about what Mike prefers, nothing more really. I agree with you that Mike seems to be in a fairly unique position to be able and willing to do these types of comparisons at the highest level. For getting a glimpse into that world by reading these threads, we should all be grateful, because we surely benefit.

Peter and Marc,

thank you for the kind words and encouragement. i'll try to keep my head on straight.

we will just have to see where this ends up.

as I sit here listening after the cable has had 24 hours, the feeling of reaching the magic of analog from digital is 'more' clearly made. this idea is a different thing than being eye to eye with good or great vinyl, it is more that it has left the orbit of digital excuses and more surely entered another level. I am hearing more of a dimensionality, flow and cohesion to the music I've only heard from analog.

what I am saying is in degrees, this is another small step (even though this step is quite subtle, it's significant), and my cable adventures are just beginning. no doubt there are better cables, but hard to know what sort of delta of advancement that can offer. it will have to play out.

anyway I do appreciate the comments and will try to live up to them.

Priaptor · Jun 29, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
Peter and Marc,

thank you for the kind words and encouragement. i'll try to keep my head on straight.

we will just have to see where this ends up.

as I sit here listening after the cable has had 24 hours, the feeling of reaching the magic of analog from digital is 'more' clearly made. this idea is a different thing than being eye to eye with good or great vinyl, it is more that it has left the orbit of digital excuses and more surely entered another level. I am hearing more of a dimensionality, flow and cohesion to the music I've only heard from analog.

what I am saying is in degrees, this is another small step (even though this step is quite subtle, it's significant), and my cable adventures are just beginning. no doubt there are better cables, but hard to know what sort of delta of advancement that can offer. it will have to play out.

anyway I do appreciate the comments and will try to live up to them.

Mike,

That cable takes about 7-10 days. When I first got it, after at the time thinking it was a lot of money for a USB cable, with my Diamond Plus IV it went through a transformation like I have never heard before with any cable.

Enjoy the ride.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 29, 2017

Priaptor said:
Mike,

That cable takes about 7-10 days. When I first got it, after at the time thinking it was a lot of money for a USB cable, with my Diamond Plus IV it went through a transformation like I have never heard before with any cable.

Enjoy the ride.

Howie,

the cable I'm using is not new, but I don't know how much it was used.

certainly now it has settled in from the shipping, can't say it's degree of break-in.....but likely it's mostly there. it did seem last night that it was digging a little deeper into the music.

Mike

Steve Williams · Jun 29, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
Howie,

the cable I'm using is not new, but I don't know how much it was used.

certainly now it has settled in from the shipping, can't say it's degree of break-in.....but likely it's mostly there. it did seem last night that it was digging a little deeper into the music.

Mike

Mike

I'm making arrangements for you to demo the MB ULTRA. IMHO you'll know the difference 10/10 blinded. Im home on Tuesday. When you're done I'll see if I can send it to Priaptor because quite honestly this cable belongs in your system. I have zero desires to go Ethernet since I've put this cable in my system.

Priaptor · Jun 29, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
Howie,

the cable I'm using is not new, but I don't know how much it was used.

certainly now it has settled in from the shipping, can't say it's degree of break-in.....but likely it's mostly there. it did seem last night that it was digging a little deeper into the music.

Mike

OK, that explains why it sounded "so good out of the box". When "new" that cable is truly the most altering cable I have ever used in my system. My experience, which has since been voiced by others, is how it can go from harsh to wonderful over the course of time I am referring to. I really had to force myself to let it break in as I never thought it could turn in to what it did.

While I haven't tried all USB cables and surely not the one Steve is recommending, I have tried many and with few exceptions I still like the LH USB above most others. I was really pleasantly surprised with the Curious Cable, never thinking it would best the LH, but it did unexpectedly for me which as I stated before is what I am now using with the Select.

As you are too, I am just loving this DAC. Just put my REF10 up for sale.

Howie

Priaptor · Jun 29, 2017

Steve Williams said:
Mike

I'm making arrangements for you to demo the MB ULTRA. IMHO you'll know the difference 10/10 blinded. Im home on Tuesday. When you're done I'll see if I can send it to Priaptor because quite honestly this cable belongs in your system. I have zero desires to go Ethernet since I've put this cable in my system.

Steve,

Thanks. I am a big believer that cables most definitely DO make a difference.

Howie

Steve Williams · Jun 29, 2017

Priaptor said:
OK, that explains why it sounded "so good out of the box". When "new" that cable is truly the most altering cable I have ever used in my system. My experience, which has since been voiced by others, is how it can go from harsh to wonderful over the course of time I am referring to. I really had to force myself to let it break in as I never thought it could turn in to what it did.

While I haven't tried all USB cables and surely not the one Steve is recommending, I have tried many and with few exceptions I still like the LH USB above most others. I was really pleasantly surprised with the Curious Cable, never thinking it would best the LH, but it did unexpectedly for me which as I stated before is what I am now using with the Select.

As you are too, I am just loving this DAC. Just put my REF10 up for sale.

Howie

Here's my findings as well as that if marty who has the loaner now. Contrary to the long burn in of MB ULTRA cables which take weeks to burn in the MB ULTRA USB achieved maximum change in the first 4-6 hours. So it won't take you long to figure it out.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 29, 2017

Steve Williams said:
Mike

I'm making arrangements for you to demo the MB ULTRA. IMHO you'll know the difference 10/10 blinded. Im home on Tuesday. When you're done I'll see if I can send it to Priaptor because quite honestly this cable belongs in your system. I have zero desires to go Ethernet since I've put this cable in my system.

Steve,

looking forward to hearing what has got you so excited. hope it does it for me too. travel safe back from the old world.

Mike

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