MSB Select II arrival

Priaptor · Jan 20, 2018

microstrip said:
Can you give us a few details on what is exactly your current system?

Sure.

As of now, my speakers are the Nola Concert Grand Gold series, the last speaker the late Harry Pearson heard and stated were the best speakers he ever heard. They are remarkable speakers and unfortunately few ever heard and even fewer ever heard they way the are capable of sounding as Carl has only showed them with tubes and they are much more remarkable with what I am now listening to them with.

All interconnects and power cords are now Gobel, replaced all my Nordost.

My source is the following: Roon-->UltraRendu/Uptone LPS-1-->Select II (single power base at this time)-->CH Precision M1-->Nola Concert Grand Gold.

Just a little about my room. Those who have been there are shocked. Not because of the money or sound treatment but because of serendipity. My last home, I had built it from scratch, the price I am ashamed of, with the help of Jeff Rowlands among others. Yeah it was great, but nothing compared to this home, where I have a large "game room" that with minimal treatment just sounds spectacular.

microstrip · Jan 20, 2018

Priaptor said:
(...) Just a little about my room. Those who have been there are shocked. Not because of the money or sound treatment but because of serendipity. My last home, I had built it from scratch, the price I am ashamed of, with the help of Jeff Rowlands among others. Yeah it was great, but nothing compared to this home, where I have a large "game room" that with minimal treatment just sounds spectacular.

IMHO size helps a lot the probability of serendipity in listening rooms. As well as old houses ...

asiufy · Jan 20, 2018

I'm getting my SELECT fix ! I sure missed it! It's funny how you get spoiled with this stuff...

DaveyF · Jan 20, 2018

asiufy said:
I'm getting my SELECT fix ! I sure missed it! It's funny how you get spoiled with this stuff...

View attachment 38340

Thanks for the event last night. Was sounding good. Could you tell us what the system in the photo consisted of.

asiufy · Jan 20, 2018

Sure!
On the left side of the rack, MSB SELECT II DAC with Femto 33 and Mono Power Bases, and on the right, MSB UMT V Transport with Diamond Power Base and the Innuos Zenith server.
That was going into the MSB 204 Class A mono amps, going into the Wilson Audio Alexia Series 2. Amps on the wall, everything else on the IsoTek Mosaic Genesis power conditioner/regenerator. Cabling was a mix of Kubala-Sosna and Analysis Plus.

DaveyF · Jan 20, 2018

asiufy said:
Sure!
On the left side of the rack, MSB SELECT II DAC with Femto 33 and Mono Power Bases, and on the right, MSB UMT V Transport with Diamond Power Base and the Innuos Zenith server.
That was going into the MSB 204 Class A mono amps, going into the Wilson Audio Alexia Series 2. Amps on the wall, everything else on the IsoTek Mosaic Genesis power conditioner/regenerator. Cabling was a mix of Kubala-Sosna and Analysis Plus.

Alex, thanks.

Priaptor · Jan 20, 2018

microstrip said:
IMHO size helps a lot the probability of serendipity in listening rooms. As well as old houses ...

Absolutely. The room is large but there is also something about the open aspect preventing side wall interaction that is great.

Whatever the reason it’s the best part of my system and I didn’t even know it was happening till I installed the system.

Priaptor · Jan 20, 2018

wisnon said:
Yes, the M1 is a killer. I got to demo the original prototype in their demo room for 2-3 hours a few years back. CH is a great company with great people.

Thanks Norman

I have been “out of solid state” for a long time, none since 4 years ago when I had a Constellation Stereo Centaur, which I didn’t like.

I have to say these newest solid state amps have floored me. I haven’t heard the comparable Soulutions or Mike’s amazing Dartzeel monos but have tried many other SS amps recently and am impressed with everything I have heard. The CH M1 is an amazing and capable amp. My GS150 which I love is sitting here a neglected orphan. I never would have thought.

Best
Howie

Elliot G. · Jan 21, 2018

Priaptor said:
Thanks Norman

I have been “out of solid state” for a long time, none since 4 years ago when I had a Constellation Stereo Centaur, which I didn’t like.

I have to say these newest solid state amps have floored me. I haven’t heard the comparable Soulutions or Mike’s amazing Dartzeel monos but have tried many other SS amps recently and am impressed with everything I have heard. The CH M1 is an amazing and capable amp. My GS150 which I love is sitting here a neglected orphan. I never would have thought.

Best
Howie

I had the pleasure of another listening session last evening and I have to say that the system sounded even better than I had remembered. Howie's room which is large and open with a few treatments does support the music beautifully. In his old house he spent a lot of time, money and effort to do everything correct yet the room was good but never great. This room works amazingly well.
I have heard the speakers with a bunch of amps both tube and solid state but they have never come close to producing music like they do now. I am going post some of my impressions under the Gobel thread since the cables and the amp have really completely changed the character and purity of the listening experience. One last thought to those who think that digital can't be good, you need to check out the MSB its truly wonderful.

wisnon · Jan 24, 2018

Priaptor said:
Thanks Norman

I have been “out of solid state” for a long time, none since 4 years ago when I had a Constellation Stereo Centaur, which I didn’t like.

I have to say these newest solid state amps have floored me. I haven’t heard the comparable Soulutions or Mike’s amazing Dartzeel monos but have tried many other SS amps recently and am impressed with everything I have heard. The CH M1 is an amazing and capable amp. My GS150 which I love is sitting here a neglected orphan. I never would have thought.

Best
Howie

The Dart monoblocs are a favourite of mine. I have been to Herve's house 4 times and listened to them 3 times. The last time he didnt have them anymore...couldnt keep up with demand so his personal pair had to go! Brute power and finesse. Not your Daddy's SS amp no mo'.

Out of budget...by far, but I do have a pair of the amp faceplates as souvenirs from the reject pile...I cant see any of the supposed flaws that caused the rejection.

wisnon · Jan 24, 2018

Priaptor said:
Thanks Norman

I have been “out of solid state” for a long time, none since 4 years ago when I had a Constellation Stereo Centaur, which I didn’t like.

I have to say these newest solid state amps have floored me. I haven’t heard the comparable Soulutions or Mike’s amazing Dartzeel monos but have tried many other SS amps recently and am impressed with everything I have heard. The CH M1 is an amazing and capable amp. My GS150 which I love is sitting here a neglected orphan. I never would have thought.

Best
Howie

Whaddaya using as a transport?

QuadDiffuser · Jan 28, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
QuadDiffusor, Welcome again to WBF and congrats on the arrival of your MSB Select II. love to hear what you think about it.

agree that the MSB product line-up direction and modularity should support long term value retention and performance at all price points. I sure feel good about it. as digital interface choices evolve MSB is uniquely positioned to offer upgrades at all levels. which ought to attract more buyers to the brand, and allow for optimal performance/value to be maintained.

no one has a crystal ball.....all we can do is connect the dots based on what we see.

Dear Mike,

Thank you SO much for your warm welcome to WBF! I confess that I've been a lurker, not having contributed at all to the very active discussions on various topics and threads. I've taken a great deal of care in slowly assembling my current system, and have deliberately chosen to focus on enjoying my music throughout the unavoidable and lengthy burn-in process instead of falling into the trap of being bitten and infected by the audiophilia nervosa contagion hidden on every Forum. The permutations of the upgrade path is mind-boggling, especially when it comes to peripheral tweaks such as grounding boxes, fuses, AC power chords, etc. While I've already spent a great deal of time reading the threads on Entreq and Tripoint I've avoided the temptation of journeying down that road, as I believe that it's more important to focus on the macro building blocks - room acoustics and AC power first.

I recently got rid of my passive power conditioning device (Shunyata Triton 3), and substituted two PS Audio Power Plant P-10s (one for each channel) after auditioning to confirming the latter's sonic superiority. I've also decided to add a preamplifier, the Ayre KX-R Twenty (to be delivered to me in March), to augment the MSB Select II DAC's analog output, which despite its potential for purity/transparency from not having any active amplification circuitry, actually sounds slightly anemic to me due to its limitations in not being able to deliver sufficient current into the power amplifiers, especially in the lowest registers.

I'm currently in the process of evaluating various AC power cables, with the intent of getting rid of my ancient red Shunyata VX "rattlesnake" cables which currently supply AC to my front-end components and replacing them with Audience AC cables which have minimal shielding (but are terminated with Furutech NCF connectors). Ditto for my Shunyata Z-tron Anaconda 20A cables which feed my monoblock amps. My thinking is that the passive components and conductor geometry in the Shunyata, while it attenuates and shields "undesirable" external RFI, potentially resulting in a more claustrophobic and veiled musical presentation. Audience's design thesis is essentially "less is more" - using minimal insulation and shielding, the superiority which I've been able to confirm through my audition (and purchase/usage) of their Au24 SX interconnect cable, as well as their Au24 SX speaker cable which is surprisingly thin (toothpick gauge) compared to the fire hose thickness typical of the competition but have superior micro-dynamics, preservation of delicate micro-detail, as well as phase coherency through the macro attributes of slam and speed.

Looking forward to discussing and sharing my notes!

Alpinist · Jan 29, 2018

QuadDiffusor said:
Dear Mike,

Thank you SO much for your warm welcome to WBF! I confess that I've been a lurker, not having contributed at all to the very active discussions on various topics and threads. Having taken a great deal of care in assembling my current system, and having been enjoying my DAC immensely so far, I've mostly been enjoying my music during the unavoidable and lengthy burn-in process instead of allowing myself to be bitten and infected by the audiophilia nervosa contagion hidden on every Forum posting. The permutations of the upgrade path is mind-boggling, especially when it comes to peripheral tweaks such as grounding boxes, fuses, AC power chords, etc. While I've already spent a great deal of time reading the threads on Entreq and Tripoint I've deliberately avoided the temptation of journeying down that road, as I believe that it's more important to focus on the macro building blocks.

For example, I recently got rid of my passive power conditioning device (Shunyata Triton 3), and substituted two PS Audio Power Plant P-10s (one for each channel) after auditioning to confirming the latter's sonic superiority. I've also decided to add a preamplifier, the Ayre KX-R Twenty, to augment the MSB Select II DAC's analog output, which despite its potential for purity/transparency from not having any active amplification circuitry, actually sounds slightly anemic to me due to its limitations in not being able to deliver sufficient current into the power amplifiers, especially for the lower registers.

I'm currently in the process of evaluating various AC power cables, with the intent of getting rid of my ancient red Shunyata VX "rattlesnake" cables which currently supply AC to my front-end components and replacing them with Audience AC cables which have minimal shielding (but are terminated with Furutech NCF connectors). Ditto for my Shunyata Z-tron Anaconda 20A cables which feed my monoblock amps. My thinking is that the passive components and conductor geometry in the Shunyata, while it attenuates and shields "undesirable" external RFI, potentially resulting in a more claustrophobic and veiled musical presentation. Audience's design thesis is essentially "less is more" - using minimal insulation and shielding, the superiority which I've been able to confirm through my audition (and purchase/usage) of their Au24 SX interconnect cable, as well as their Au24 SX speaker cable which is surprisingly thin (toothpick gauge) compared to the fire hose thickness typical of the competition but have superior micro-dynamics, preservation of delicate micro-detail, as well as phase coherency through the macro attributes of slam and speed.

Looking forward to discussing and sharing my notes!

Congratulations on your MSB Select II DAC! I’m sure it will give you great enjoyment for years to come. I was just curious if you have the “Dual Powerbase”, which is a single powerbase that contains both the analog and digital power supplies, or the “Mono Powerbases”, which have the analog and digital power supplies in two separate chassis.

Thanks,
Ken

Priaptor · Jan 29, 2018

"I've also decided to add a preamplifier, the Ayre KX-R Twenty, to augment the MSB Select II DAC's analog output, which despite its potential for purity/transparency from not having any active amplification circuitry, actually sounds slightly anemic to me due to its limitations in not being able to deliver sufficient current into the power amplifiers, especially for the lower registers"

Congrats on your purchase. Many of us using the Select II as a digital source only, don't necessarily agree with your findings. I have had the Select II for a long time now and listened extensively to my system with and without my REF10. From my perch, there was no comparison. Running direct was the way to go. No I am using the CH Precision M1 direct and find it to be an even better match to what I was using before, the ARC GS150 which IMHO, was the best stereo amp ARC every released and one of their best products ever made in their long history.

I understand that there are those who need a preamp, particularly who are using analog as well and certain electronics which just mate better with their own preamp but for those of us running digital only, the pre state of the MSB has been revelatory.

In any case, congrats and welcome to the "Select club"

Priaptor · Jan 29, 2018

double post

QuadDiffuser · Jan 29, 2018

Alpinist said:
Congratulations on your MSB Select II DAC! I’m sure it will give you great enjoyment for years to come. I was just curious if you have the “Dual Powerbase”, which is a single powerbase that contains both the analog and digital power supplies, or the “Mono Powerbases”, which have the analog and digital power supplies in two separate chassis.

Thanks,
Ken

Thanks Ken, and hello!
I have dual mono Powerbases, with the Femto33 clock inside the DAC.

Elliot G. · Jan 29, 2018

QuadDiffusor said:
Thanks Ken, and hello!
I have dual mono Powerbases, with the Femto33 clock inside the DAC.

Hi and congrats on the Select its an amazing product.
Since I have heard the [pre/no-pre/ at Priaptor's) and would totally agree that in his system the MSB direct into the power amplifier was far superior than using a pre-
amplifier, not the case in the past however, but certainly is now.
I am trying to understand what you are hearing when you say the system is anemic going directly from the MSB. Are you saying it has no power and the MSB doesn' t drive your power amplifier correctly? or is it a sonic thing like the dynamics are soft or slow? Please explain
For our curiosity what is the rest of your system? Speakers, Amps, Balanced ? single ended? etc.
Thanks and enjoy

QuadDiffuser · Jan 30, 2018

Hi Elliot! After signing into WBF using your username and password, you can click on my name, then the silhouette icon "View Profile", and finally the tab "About Me" to see a detailed list of the components in my system.

I confess that I'm actually taking an expensive wager that the addition of the Ayre KX-R Twenty (to be delivered in March) will enable my Select DAC II to reach the next level of performance in expressing even wider dynamic swings, particularly in the low end, and introduce a balance to music which more closely resembles the effortless and exciting dynamic range present in live instruments.

Please don't belittle the more mainstream audio companies, but this video by PS Audio's Paul McGowan describes well what one should expect to hear with the addition of a preamp to help the source component better deliver the requisite dynamic swing(s) in current. Warning: product endorsement contained within!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh27E7YKN9s

Here are the measurement of the Ayre preamplifier, as published in Stereophile - not too shabby!
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ayre-acoustics-kx-r-twenty-line-preamplifier-measurements

To help me have some basis for comparison, I have requested MSB to provide me with quantitative data on the ability (%THD, frequency, voltage) of the Select II's output section to deliver current into challenging loads of 600ohms, as well as a more modest 10Kohms (into the full spectrum of 10Hz to ~48kHz across a range of voltage outputs, as well as a 19kHz+20kHz IM graph at full output), but I'm still waiting. My JRDG 725 S2s have an input impedance of 40Kohms which is on the low side for solid state amps, and I want to verify for myself that the Select II indeed has sufficiently abilities to qualify as a bona-fide standalone preamplifier. I'm one of the select (no pun intended) owners of MSB's hyper-expensive, US$108,000 retail price, top-of-the-line, state-of-the-art, "you can't touch this, wannabes!" DAC, WITH purportedly an output section rivaling (and obviating the need for) a standalone preamp - so I hope my request is a very reasonable one!

I see that the CH Audio M1 has a nominal input impedance of 95Kohms (balanced), which is more than double those of my amp. For reference, the KX-R Twenty's input impedance is 2,000Kohms which is significantly less demanding for front end components to drive. The progression of higher and higher input impedances between components is the way it SHOULD be - the role of the preamplifier is (among other things) to preserve the fidelity of the line level input signal while performing as a buffer to deliver sufficient current into the power amplifier's inputs.

Here's an EXCELLENT video by Paul McGowan on the principles behind understanding input and output impedance coupling between source components, preamps, and power amps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HGS6W7ZiGY

I would like to extend a big invitation to all WBF members and readers to share their experiences with either going direct or inserting a preamp between their DACs and their power amps, and articulate what you heard !

microstrip · Jan 30, 2018

QuadDiffusor said:
(...) Here's an EXCELLENT video by Paul McGowan on the principles behind understanding input and output impedance between source components, preamps, and power amps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HGS6W7ZiGY

I would like to extend a big invitation to all WBF members and readers to share their experiences with either going direct or inserting a preamp between their DACs and their power amps. Would love to hear more!

Unfortunately, although presenting some of the issues involved when coupling outputs to inputs, Paul ignores a very basic one - an output must supply current, and for a certain signal voltage this current varies with the impedance. Although we can assume the source can supply it easily, in most of then the spectra of distortion varies immensely with current. It is why in the good old days preamplfiers were measured with loads of 600, 10k and 100 kohm.

The analysis of such situation is complex and perhaps explains why we have so many different opinions about going direct or through a preamplfier. Each case is a different case, people report their own particular experiences.

In my experience with the Vivaldi it is still a question of managing compromises and preferences - there are some recordings where I prefer going direct, but others where a preamplfier is needed. For example, if you are listening to string concertos, where the inner and global detail and feeling of orchestral sections is very relevant, I prefer going direct - IMHO it recreates better a live orchestra. However, when listening to acoustical ancient music, where there is a strong involvement of the individual players and instruments, the extra involvement and foulness of the bass support of a preamplfier is very welcome.

Elliot G. · Jan 30, 2018

QuadDiffusor said:
Hi Elliot! After signing into WBF using your username and password, you can click on my name, then the silhouette icon "View Profile", and finally the tab "About Me" to see a detailed list of the components in my system.

I confess that I'm actually taking an expensive wager that the addition of the Ayre KX-R Twenty (to be delivered in March) will enable my Select DAC II to reach the next level of performance in expressing even wider dynamic swings, particularly in the low end, and introduce a balance to music which more closely resembles the effortless and exciting dynamic range present in live instruments.

Please don't belittle the more mainstream audio companies, but this video by PS Audio's Paul McGowan describes well what one should expect to hear with the addition of a preamp to help the source component better deliver the requisite dynamic swing(s) in current. Warning: product endorsement contained within!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh27E7YKN9s

Here are the measurement of the Ayre preamplifier, as published in Stereophile - not too shabby!
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ayre-acoustics-kx-r-twenty-line-preamplifier-measurements

To help me have some basis for comparison, I have requested MSB to provide me with quantitative data on the ability (%THD, frequency, voltage) of the Select II's output section to deliver current into challenging loads of 600ohms, as well as a more modest 10Kohms (into the full spectrum of 10Hz to ~48kHz across a range of voltage outputs, as well as a 19kHz+20kHz IM graph at full output), but I'm still waiting. My JRDG 725 S2s have an input impedance of 40Kohms which is on the low side for solid state amps, and I want to verify for myself that the Select II indeed has sufficiently abilities to qualify as a bona-fide standalone preamplifier. I'm one of the select (no pun intended) owners of MSB's hyper-expensive, US$108,000 retail price, top-of-the-line, state-of-the-art, "you can't touch this, wannabes!" DAC, WITH purportedly an output section rivaling (and obviating the need for) a standalone preamp - so I hope my request is a very reasonable one!

I see that the CH Audio M1 has a nominal input impedance of 95Kohms (balanced), which is more than double those of my amp. For reference, the KX-R Twenty's input impedance is 2,000Kohms which is significantly less demanding for front end components to drive. The progression of higher and higher input impedances between components is the way it SHOULD be - the role of the preamplifier is (among other things) to preserve the fidelity of the line level input signal while performing as a buffer to deliver sufficient current into the power amplifier's inputs.

Here's an EXCELLENT video by Paul McGowan on the principles behind understanding input and output impedance coupling between source components, preamps, and power amps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HGS6W7ZiGY

I would like to extend a big invitation to all WBF members and readers to share their experiences with either going direct or inserting a preamp between their DACs and their power amps, and articulate what you heard !

Hello and thank you however I am even more confused after reading the list of gear in your system.
I am not familiar with your speakers but you list them as active.
You also have amps and a room correction preamp, plus the MSB and you said you were getting an Ayre.
SO how in reality is the rig set up?
Are you using a room correction device? do the speakers have amplifiers or an amplifier in them?
I am not putting any of this down I just am trying to figure out why you are hearing something very different to my experience.
In the examples I have experienced the system is simple DAC to AMP I am thinking that is not the case in yours.
Please explain.
E

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