What SET amplifiers have Realistic Midrange Magic AND have the Great BASS? Rock your Horns!

If you like the NOS 6H8C, then try look out for the Melz branded 1578 iteration with round holes in the black plates. This is the special low noise military version and is up there with the very finest 6sn7 eg Sylvania round plates / RCA vt231 smoked etc. Is crystal clear and dynamic sounding.

Sablon Audio said:

If you like the NOS 6H8C, then try look out for the Melz branded 1578 iteration with round holes in the black plates. This is the special low noise military version and is up there with the very finest 6sn7 eg Sylvania round plates / RCA vt231 smoked etc. Is crystal clear and dynamic sounding.

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I have both the 1578 and 6H8C versions with round holes in the plates. I like the 6H8C one better, but they are both excellent.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

I received my Lampizator 211 True Balanced monoblocks this week. I'm running them into my VR100XS speakers which are rated at 90dB sensitivity. Running full range, biwiring them to both top and bottom speaker inputs, the amps performed extremely well. I was amazed at the bass control, extension and dynamics. I'm now running them on the M/T section since the 211's and the Spectrons integrate well and I want to relieve the 211's from having to supply all that bass current. By the way, these 211 amps are the best I've heard anywhere and have taken my system to a new level.

kernelbob said:

I received my Lampizator 211 True Balanced monoblocks this week. I'm running them into my VR100XS speakers which are rated at 90dB sensitivity. Running full range, biwiring them to both top and bottom speaker inputs, the amps performed extremely well. I was amazed at the bass control, extension and dynamics. I'm now running them on the M/T section since the 211's and the Spectrons integrate well and I want to relieve the 211's from having to supply all that bass current. By the way, these 211 amps are the best I've heard anywhere and have taken my system to a new level.

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I would really love to hear those on your speakers

Hi Bob

kernelbob said:

I received my Lampizator 211 True Balanced monoblocks this week. I'm running them into my VR100XS speakers which are rated at 90dB sensitivity. Running full range, biwiring them to both top and bottom speaker inputs, the amps performed extremely well. I was amazed at the bass control, extension and dynamics. I'm now running them on the M/T section since the 211's and the Spectrons integrate well and I want to relieve the 211's from having to supply all that bass current. By the way, these 211 amps are the best I've heard anywhere and have taken my system to a new level.

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Is this compared to your KR Audio Kronzillas?
Wow, better bass control than the Kronzillas? That is quite an achievement...
Can you describe the sonic differences a little more?

If this is indeed true, better than KR, that will be quite a jump. And ideally should be compared by putting either KR or GE 211 tubes on Lampi

Empirical Audio said:

I have both the 1578 and 6H8C versions with round holes in the plates. I like the 6H8C one better, but they are both excellent.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

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I have heard several people prefer the solid/black plate version, which is what I have, also in 6SL7(6H9C?) which are even less expensive and also excellent.

The solid plate 6H8C version is much less expensive, but prices are getting higher. I was never willing to spend on the holey-plate 1578 version.

christoph,
Yes, better bass control than the Kronzillas-- deeper bass, better articulation, flatter bass response. Oddly, even running the 211 amps on the VR100 tower's M/T section and the Spectrons on the woofer section, the bass is more musical. These amps are a whole different animal.

Funny thing with bass. If you listen to just woofers (any woofers) without having the M/T amps playing, the bass sounds little more than rumbling. The key is that the M/T and the woofers combine to have all the power and control you need in the bass along with the top end amp filling in the leading and trailing edge of the waveforms to give startlingly fast "bass" which is actually the combined large waveforms of the woofers with the midrange and tweeters providing the speed which sounds like it's coming from the woofers.

The key is that those woofers must not overshoot or undershoot and must start and stop on a dime. That's where the 7" magnesium woofers on the VR100 have the speed and control to integrate with the magnesium midranges and the ribbon tweeter to track the most demanding waveforms. That integration capability is also what the Lampizator 211 True Balanced amps bring to the table, more so than any other amp I've heard.

bonzo75,
My Lampizator amps came with KR-Labs 211 tubes. I'm biasing them to around 62 ma. These were the same amps that were in this month's RMAF room. They were shipped to me from RMAF at the end of the show.

DaveC said:

I have heard several people prefer the solid/black plate version, which is what I have, also in 6SL7(6H9C?) which are even less expensive and also excellent.

The solid plate 6H8C version is much less expensive, but prices are getting higher. I was never willing to spend on the holey-plate 1578 version.

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One must be careful, as there are a lot of versions, some no doubt are counterfeit. The 1578 must have "1578" embossed in the glass or its not the right one.

I found the 6H8C with holes and metal base to be better than the 1578 with holes.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Bass aside, how is the rest compared to the KR? The midranges, soundstage, control, dynamics? Mid bass?

Especially on orchestral?

Did Lukasz update his amps, also, is there a big jump using the KR valves and biasing?

bonzo75 said:

(...) Did Lukasz update his amps, also, is there a big jump using the KR valves and biasing?

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Does anyone have technical information or a photo of the output transformer of the Lampizator amps?

bonzo75 said:

Bass aside, how is the rest compared to the KR? The midranges, soundstage, control, dynamics? Mid bass?

Especially on orchestral?

Did Lukasz update his amps, also, is there a big jump using the KR valves and biasing?

Click to expand...

I can't find any area where these 211 amps don't surpass the Krons. The thing that is unique in my experience is the sense of "integration" of the sound of instruments, voices, whatever. By integration I mean that all the components of the timbre of instruments and voices are now a single unit. It's difficult to describe and I'm probably not doing a good job, but this coherency of the music is just more focused, to a degree that I hadn't heard previously.

The resolution of timing is at a higher level, both micro and macro. For example, at the macro level, in orchestral works I hear more easily when an individual or different parts of the orchestra are a tad early or late. That must drive conductors crazy. I've just never been able to resolve these macro timing differences to this level before in recordings. It gives new appreciation for a really great orchestra and a disciplined conductor.

Yes, these amps are a new generation (#6 I think). Since I have only heard the amps using the KR-Labs 211, I can't speak to comparisons with other brands. Regarding biasing, the only thing I was told was that Lukasz suggests a bias range of 60 to 70.

Best,
Robert

kernelbob said:

I can't find any area where these 211 amps don't surpass the Krons. The thing that is unique in my experience is the sense of "integration" of the sound of instruments, voices, whatever. By integration I mean that all the components of the timbre of instruments and voices are now a single unit. It's difficult to describe and I'm probably not doing a good job, but this coherency of the music is just more focused, to a degree that I hadn't heard previously.

The resolution of timing is at a higher level, both micro and macro. For example, at the macro level, in orchestral works I hear more easily when an individual or different parts of the orchestra are a tad early or late. That must drive conductors crazy. I've just never been able to resolve these macro timing differences to this level before in recordings. It gives new appreciation for a really great orchestra and a disciplined conductor.

Yes, these amps are a new generation (#6 I think). Since I have only heard the amps using the KR-Labs 211, I can't speak to comparisons with other brands. Regarding biasing, the only thing I was told was that Lukasz suggests a bias range of 60 to 70.

Best,
Robert

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Wow that's quite a statement and jump by Lukasz. I love KR. And I love the Lampi dac. If Lukasz has managed to turn his focus to his amps that is excellent news for all audiophiles. Just to confirm, you had double Kronzillas, so 50w each, and now you are using 100w Lampi 211?

Yes, I have the Double Kronzillas, the ones with two output transformer containers. These are from the DM series. I had them modified with high speed, differentially balanced driver stage. This mod included external bias control for each T1610 tube. Later, I had a customized adapter built to plug into the two T1610 sockets with four sockets on top for a quad of 300BXLS tubes. A pair of those are electrically identical to the T1610 tubes. However, one problem with the T1610 is that it has two tube elements in a single envelope. That means that those individual internal elements can't be matched. With the 300BXLS, you just need to order sets of match pairs. The 300BXLS tubes also sound better and are less expensive for a set.

The wattage ratings of tube amps vary all over the place (and differently specified by manufacturer), depending on what distortion percent is used for the reference point. I think my Kronzillas are closer to 45 watts. The Lampizator 211 True Balanced amps are more powerful (I can play them louder in my system). You'll want to get specific ratings from Lukasz or Fred. Be sure to get the percent distortion level for any rating. These amps are essentially two 211 SET amps with each one handling one phase of a balanced input.

Hope this helps.
Robert

bonzo75 said:

If this is indeed true, better than KR, that will be quite a jump. And ideally should be compared by putting either KR or GE 211 tubes on Lampi

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I think the 211 amps Kernelbob has are Push Pull and not SET.

morricab said:

I think the 211 amps Kernelbob has are Push Pull and not SET.

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Yes Lampi amps are not exactly set he did some parallel push pull thing, not sure

kernelbob said:

Yes, I have the Double Kronzillas, the ones with two output transformer containers. These are from the DM series. I had them modified with high speed, differentially balanced driver stage. This mod included external bias control for each T1610 tube. Later, I had a customized adapter built to plug into the two T1610 sockets with four sockets on top for a quad of 300BXLS tubes. A pair of those are electrically identical to the T1610 tubes. However, one problem with the T1610 is that it has two tube elements in a single envelope. That means that those individual internal elements can't be matched. With the 300BXLS, you just need to order sets of match pairs. The 300BXLS tubes also sound better and are less expensive for a set.

The wattage ratings of tube amps vary all over the place (and differently specified by manufacturer), depending on what distortion percent is used for the reference point. I think my Kronzillas are closer to 45 watts. The Lampizator 211 True Balanced amps are more powerful (I can play them louder in my system). You'll want to get specific ratings from Lukasz or Fred. Be sure to get the percent distortion level for any rating. These amps are essentially two 211 SET amps with each one handling one phase of a balanced input.

Hope this helps.
Robert

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Yes it is push/pull without having a phase splitter, which means that it must be fed with a balanced signal. As long as your signal in is truly balanced any push pull amp could do without the phase splitter. Lukasz is right that it is a source of problems in PP amp design.

I seem to remember the chinese brand, Jolida, was making PP 211 monoblocks but in Class AB and were getting a whopping 200 watts out of a pair of tubes. So, I am not surprised that 85 watts is possible. Antique Sound Labs also makes a Class A PP 845 based amp that makes 60 watts...that one was well reviewed and respected.

I am not sure how all your mods have impacted the sound of the Kronzillas you have but I have seen rarely modders making actual improvements over the original designs...changing the flavor for sure but improving?? Not so often...

bonzo75 said:

Yes Lampi amps are not exactly set he did some parallel push pull thing, not sure

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Lampizator is PP, not KR. Although there is a KR DXL that is PP with T1610 tubes...think it makes about 200 watts.

I think the DXL is rated at 150wpc or thereabouts the DX2 Parallel SE I have here 100wpc. I believe Airtight has a PP 211 that is about 160 wpc. The Circlotron (w/ OPT) KR VA200 using octets of 842VHDs is the one that is 200wpc. I ordered the latter but E hasn't sent me an invoice yet as it is not on the current production schedule.. I really want to see what Marek has done with this. Cor says it's pretty good. I really want to try these with the 45 pre.

Great to hear good things about the new Lampi. I recall that this was one of the pieces announced for RMAF that made me wish I could go.

re: 211 Lampizator True Balanced amps

Each monoblock amp has two signal paths that are running single ended. Each of these paths only is fed one phase of a channel's balanced input. The 211 tubes run in pure class-A with no local or global feedback. The output of each single ended 211 goes to the output transformer. That's the first time that the two phases of the signal meet.

In my implementation, the signal originates with the Lampizator Golden Gate DAC which is the balanced version. That has four non-chip ladder D/A converters each of which connects to a KR-Labs Px4 tube, one for each phase of one channel. The next active device that a phase of a channel encounters is the first tube in the path of one of the amps SET paths (no phase splitter intervening).

I understand how people refer to the design as push-pull, but "mirrored single ended SET" is I think more accurate. This amp doesn't sound anything like a push-pull amp and is the best sounding SET amp that I've ever heard with the qualities that I've described in previous posts above.

All of the mods to my Kronzillas improved the sound. The first of which was the replacement of the original solid state driver stage with a high speed differentially balanced FET driver stage with upgraded and more modern parts including silicon carbide diodes. This mod allowed me to use a balanced XLR input. The sonic impact of the new driver stage was to extend the top end of the amp and to make an obvious improvement in the speed of the amp without losing the qualites of the SET T1610 tubes. The implementation of the adapter plate allowed me to use 300BXLS tubes without having to alter any of the output tube stage. This mod also included external bias control for the output tubes. These tubes sounded cleaner than the T1610 tubes and had the benefit of each pair of the quad being matched.

Don't get me wrong, the Krons have been driving my M/T section of the VR100's very well, but the 211 True Balanced amps are performing at an entirely higher level, bettering the Krons in every way.


P.S. Another strength of the amp is that only one 211 tube is handling each phase of a channel. I've found that amps with ganged tubes lose some of the signal purity of a single tube (I consider the T1610 tube to consist of two tube elements sharing a common envelope).

Robert