one dedicated line or two?

Speedskater

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2010
941
15
368
Cleveland Ohio
At last an acknowledgement the breaker will trip!! A local ground of more than 5 Ohms is a bad ground. (NFPA and IEEE have recommended a ground resistance value of 5.0 ohms or less.) A 5 ohm ground yields 24 amps at 120 volts through the breaker. A pool of water is a small fraction of this number. You do not need to get back to the ground at the box for enough current to flow through the breaker to trip the breaker no matter how many times you want to say it is so.
A Planet Earth grounding system at 5 Ohms or less might cost about $100,000. A good residential grounding system might measure 50 Ohms under good conditions. At many homes it could be 100 Ohms for part of a year.

It takes about 3 hours for 20 Amps to trip a 20A breaker. So 24 Amps might take some minutes (just looked at a chart, it might take an hour).
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
Here's what the tech at Torus said--"the ground post on the RM20 Bal is connected to:
-the incoming safety ground wire
-the ground and neutral on every rear panel receptacle on the unit
-the chassis of the unit
-the steel core of the isolation transformer and the electrostatic shields of the transformer.
"the auxillary ground connection from the RM20Bal to the main water pipe will not be a hazard.

So it's all good news .I can continue to listen to superior sound and not have to worry about the fears of others.

Sorry, you do not fear, but IMHO people should be able to evaluate why it is hazardous, even if someone does not think so.

The many connections the technician described to you are exactly the reason why the auxiliary ground should never be connected to the water pipe and such connection is an hazard. You do not need to worry, but others should have all facts to decide: in case of failure of the regular mains ground connection and an electrical hazard in your equipment you risk connecting the whole water pipe system, that may not be effectively grounded - to an hot point.

Just look at this hazardous situation - suppose you have equipment that is not grounded and not connected to the RM20 and is connected to your main audio system. If you take the plug of the RM20 out of the wall the whole system will be grounded only through a floating water pipe.

BTW, I am really puzzled that a technician at Torus could give such advise - did you get it written?
Or the quote ended at the ."? It is not clear from your post.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,141
495
Here's what the tech at Torus said--"the ground post on the RM20 Bal is connected to:
-the incoming safety ground wire
-the ground and neutral on every rear panel receptacle on the unit
-the chassis of the unit
-the steel core of the isolation transformer and the electrostatic shields of the transformer.
"the auxillary ground connection from the RM20Bal to the main water pipe will not be a hazard.

So it's all good news .I can continue to listen to superior sound and not have to worry about the fears of others.

Not so sure about that... I'd need to double check with an actual engineer at Torus to believe it. It's not hard to get a sales/marketing guy on the phone who gives out bad info, it happens all the time.

Ground and neutral are only connected at the service entrance, it is against code to connect them inside the home.

Connecting the ground to the water pipe, if it is not the home's ground (unlikely), is not to code and is potentially dangerous as well.
 

Speedskater

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2010
941
15
368
Cleveland Ohio
Not so sure about that... I'd need to double check with an actual engineer at Torus to believe it. It's not hard to get a sales/marketing guy on the phone who gives out bad info, it happens all the time.
So often you call someone and ask a question that they wern't expecting, they don't have time to think it thru or check with others or the documents and they get it wrong.

Ground and neutral are only connected at the service entrance, it is against code to connect them inside the home.
Exactly! Safety Grounds connect to the Neutral only at the service entrance/main breaker box.

Connecting the ground to the water pipe, if it is not the home's ground (unlikely), is not to code and is potentially dangerous as well.
It's OK for Safety Grounds to also be bonded to any water pipes or metal building framing as long as they are connected to the Neutral at the service entrance/main breaker box.
 

Speedskater

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2010
941
15
368
Cleveland Ohio
The NEC rule:

"Article 250.4 (5) Effective Ground-Fault Current Path
Electrical equipment and wiring and other electrically conductive material likely to become energized shall be installed in a manner that creates a permanent, low-impedance circuit capable of safely carrying the maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it from any point on the wiring system where a ground fault may occur to the electrical supply source. The earth shall not be used as the sole equipment grounding conductor or effective ground-fault current path."
 

Chuck Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2015
84
7
238
Obviously you folks don't understand how the Torus works.Please look up, the Balanced RM 20.
At no time did I or the good Tech at torus say that the unit was not connected to ground at the panel.
It has to be, it's wired for 240 not the conventional 15 amp type power conditioners you maybe thinking of that plug into a 15 amp wall receptacle.
I'll give you the rest of what the Tech Manager of Torus had to say
"as long as you ran a ground from the main panel to the new 240 outlet then there will be no safety concerns"Which I stated I did.It's wired per Torus wiring instructions.I've stated that.
I also stated that all the gear is plugged into the Torus so nothing to worry about some gear in the system plugged else where.You would know that if you actually take the time to read my posts.
Perhaps that has been the problem all along.
Some folks here seem to be on a witch hunt looking for things to find fault with and create panic when there is no reason to do so.
Fake news as the Donald might say.Or just jumping the gun with a thought not fully thought out.
"Ground wire to a water pipe! Against code.red flag.Danger young Will Robinson!
This has been fun?
My take,a little knowledge can be dangerous,a lot of knowledge just as dangerous if the topic of discussion is not fully understood and has not been researched.
Always, look before you leap.
I think before someone doubts the credibility of a company's Technical Manager, they should first become familiar with what the product is, how it's made and how it is connected .
But I'm pretty sure I covered that ground back in my first or second post.
Then all the reading between the lines and fear mongering came to the front
I'm no expert as some on this site have been (self?) appointed,but at least I would never make wild assumptions about a product or it's main team players before I did my homework.
Failure to do so makes one tend to doubt the cred.
 

Speedskater

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2010
941
15
368
Cleveland Ohio
Dear Chuck Lee,

The problems started in your post #18 when you wrote:
But I didn't know how good things could get until I ran a dedicated Ground back to my water pipe from the massive ground post on the Torus.( I used all three wires from my unused 10 amp former dedicated line that was disconnected from the panel.

The correct method was for the Safety Ground to follow the same path as the primary wires back to the breaker panel where it connects to all the other Safety Grounds/Neutral junction.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,141
495
Obviously you folks don't understand how the Torus works.Please look up, the Balanced RM 20.
At no time did I or the good Tech at torus say that the unit was not connected to ground at the panel.
It has to be, it's wired for 240 not the conventional 15 amp type power conditioners you maybe thinking of that plug into a 15 amp wall receptacle.
I'll give you the rest of what the Tech Manager of Torus had to say
"as long as you ran a ground from the main panel to the new 240 outlet then there will be no safety concerns"Which I stated I did.It's wired per Torus wiring instructions.I've stated that.
I also stated that all the gear is plugged into the Torus so nothing to worry about some gear in the system plugged else where.You would know that if you actually take the time to read my posts.
Perhaps that has been the problem all along.
Some folks here seem to be on a witch hunt looking for things to find fault with and create panic when there is no reason to do so.
Fake news as the Donald might say.Or just jumping the gun with a thought not fully thought out.
"Ground wire to a water pipe! Against code.red flag.Danger young Will Robinson!
This has been fun?
My take,a little knowledge can be dangerous,a lot of knowledge just as dangerous if the topic of discussion is not fully understood and has not been researched.
Always, look before you leap.
I think before someone doubts the credibility of a company's Technical Manager, they should first become familiar with what the product is, how it's made and how it is connected .
But I'm pretty sure I covered that ground back in my first or second post.
Then all the reading between the lines and fear mongering came to the front
I'm no expert as some on this site have been (self?) appointed,but at least I would never make wild assumptions about a product or it's main team players before I did my homework.
Failure to do so makes one tend to doubt the cred.

Lol... cred... Why are you so mad? If I'm wrong, or anyone's wrong, it's more than ok to simply say so without a page long rant. Entertaining though... :)
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,141
495
Exactly! Safety Grounds connect to the Neutral only at the service entrance/main breaker box.


It's OK for Safety Grounds to also be bonded to any water pipes or metal building framing as long as they are connected to the Neutral at the service entrance/main breaker box.

The neutral in this case is on the secondary side of the Torus' trafo, so maybe ok, IDK... if info C Lee got is good then it's probably the case. I'm not sure on rules for isolated power or balanced power.

2nd point is true but it's unlikely the pipe is used as an electrical ground... maybe but not likely. If pipe and ground at service entrance are at different potentials for a short time due to lightening, then current would flow through the Torus' ground lead and the system's safety ground paths, including chassis, so I'm not sure this is a good idea. It could make parts of the system more prone to lightening damage. I'm just speculating on what might happen but I do think it's not to code.
 

Speedskater

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2010
941
15
368
Cleveland Ohio
Dave, I think that we have two different situations here:

1] Metal water pipe systems inside the home are required to be bonded to the Safety Ground system and outside the home (if used as part of the earthing system) bonded to the Neutral at the main breaker box (that's the same place that the Safety Ground system is connected.

2] In the cases of Torus' trafo, isolation or balanced transformers it's a bad idea (and not to code) to connect them to a metal water pipe. This would be the opposite of an Isolated Ground system that is connected to the Neutral at a carefully chosen point.

For large permanently installed Torus' trafo, isolation or balanced transformers, the best way is to wire them as Separately Derived Systems.
 

Chuck Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2015
84
7
238
The Torus has great surge protection, but a direct lightning strike will wipe out just about everything .Wiring an auxillary ground to the water pipe won't make things any worse.
I worry more about a strike from North Korea.
I still contend that you folks need to take a minute from your busy schedules and take a look at how the Torus RM 20 Balanced works.
I don't see where my post #18 is a problem, unless you mean that my statement that the sound was improved started your juices flowing.
I was an early adoptee of upgraded fuses and got the same reaction when I said they improved my sound.
I used the old run of #10 romex that was one of my dedicated lines,that I was no longer using.I said that I went to one dedicated line.This was surplus wire.Did you think it was still connected somewhere?
So I am supposed to take heed from experts who don't know much about balanced power?
I do try to make a joke now and then, because there is some humour in all of this,re-read the line above.
I respect the advice of my electrician audio bud and that of Ross at Torus who was professional in his quick response to my e-mail inquiry about running a ground from the Torus to the water pipe.
Sorry to admit that I don't have that response in writing, just computer .
More humour when some expert mentioned that perhaps I was talking to someone of no importance who would say anything just to make a sale.
I don't like to get involved in forums anymore just because they always end up in one persons experience being rebuked by another who ,case in point really has no idea of what they are talking about.
They just like to throw their expert advice out there,mostly just to keep up appearances.
"Let's see what &&&& has to say about this!"
I have no affiliation with Torus,I just bought my unit in Dec /17 from a dealer not from them.
I am not promoting balanced power as the holy grail of power conditioning.
I was only responding to a thread about dedicated lines and my hands on experience with going down that road as opposed to speculating the pros and cons from the sidelines. I stated that one dedicated line was better than using three in my experience.And stated how I came to that conclusion.
I like to get involved in this hobby,get my hands dirty from time to time and experiment for myself before I accept that something just can't make a difference.
I at no time stated that everyone should go out and run live wires from their stereo to the water pipe to get better sound.
If those who raised red flags would have taken the time to check out what I said they would have know that the Torus was wired at the panel they way they specify in their install instructions.
Which means there is a ground wire at the panel that is from the dedicated power line to the Torus.
It was never defeated, or bypassed.
The breaker was functional,double pole 2 x 20 amp -- neutral wire to one half of breaker, hot wire to other half of breaker and ground wire to the panels ground buss bar. A 240 to the Torus -so the Torus is grounded at the panel.
But I told you that.
Why the rant?
Because if you don't know what you are talking about and have no experience with then why comment at all?
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
Dave, I think that we have two different situations here:

1] Metal water pipe systems inside the home are required to be bonded to the Safety Ground system and outside the home (if used as part of the earthing system) bonded to the Neutral at the main breaker box (that's the same place that the Safety Ground system is connected.

2] In the cases of Torus' trafo, isolation or balanced transformers it's a bad idea (and not to code) to connect them to a metal water pipe. This would be the opposite of an Isolated Ground system that is connected to the Neutral at a carefully chosen point.

For large permanently installed Torus' trafo, isolation or balanced transformers, the best way is to wire them as Separately Derived Systems.

The main question is that there are several "if's" in this type of connection, that can result in a sound quality improvement, according to the OP. A simple repair or upgrade in some part of the water pipe system can create a dangerous situation, even if it is now safe to connect it. Sometimes we must accept some risk to keep existing systems working - it is why codes have some tolerance. However risking other people life with a new connection just for a better audio quality does not seem acceptable to me. Surely YMMV.

It seems to me that in these aspects some european electrical codes are more severe than US ones. Although we currently have people living in old houses where there are ground connections to water pipes, if you change the company supplying your mains or for example ask for more power, you have to comply with current code that forbids it.
 

Speedskater

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2010
941
15
368
Cleveland Ohio
The main question is that there are several "if's" in this type of connection, that can result in a sound quality improvement, according to the OP. A simple repair or upgrade in some part of the water pipe system can create a dangerous situation, even if it is now safe to connect it. Sometimes we must accept some risk to keep existing systems working - it is why codes have some tolerance. However risking other people life with a new connection just for a better audio quality does not seem acceptable to me. Surely YMMV.
Yes, yes of course. But there is a big difference between bonding water pipes and other large metal objects to ground and using a water pipe as the Safety Ground path back to the Neutral.

It seems to me that in these aspects some European electrical codes are more severe than US ones. Although we currently have people living in old houses where there are ground connections to water pipes, if you change the company supplying your mains or for example ask for more power, you have to comply with current code that forbids it.
Yes the (sort of) grandfathered practice from more than a half century ago of using water pipes as Safety Grounds does have it's dangers.
Now there are smaller sized GFCI receptacles that fit in the older outlet boxes that may eliminate the need for a S.G. in some situations.
 

Pb Blimp

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2017
518
25
140
USA
The Torus has great surge protection, but a direct lightning strike will wipe out just about everything .Wiring an auxillary ground to the water pipe won't make things any worse.
I worry more about a strike from North Korea.
I still contend that you folks need to take a minute from your busy schedules and take a look at how the Torus RM 20 Balanced works.
I don't see where my post #18 is a problem, unless you mean that my statement that the sound was improved started your juices flowing.
I was an early adoptee of upgraded fuses and got the same reaction when I said they improved my sound.
I used the old run of #10 romex that was one of my dedicated lines,that I was no longer using.I said that I went to one dedicated line.This was surplus wire.Did you think it was still connected somewhere?
So I am supposed to take heed from experts who don't know much about balanced power?
I do try to make a joke now and then, because there is some humour in all of this,re-read the line above.
I respect the advice of my electrician audio bud and that of Ross at Torus who was professional in his quick response to my e-mail inquiry about running a ground from the Torus to the water pipe.
Sorry to admit that I don't have that response in writing, just computer .
More humour when some expert mentioned that perhaps I was talking to someone of no importance who would say anything just to make a sale.
I don't like to get involved in forums anymore just because they always end up in one persons experience being rebuked by another who ,case in point really has no idea of what they are talking about.
They just like to throw their expert advice out there,mostly just to keep up appearances.
"Let's see what &&&& has to say about this!"

I have no affiliation with Torus,I just bought my unit in Dec /17 from a dealer not from them.
I am not promoting balanced power as the holy grail of power conditioning.
I was only responding to a thread about dedicated lines and my hands on experience with going down that road as opposed to speculating the pros and cons from the sidelines. I stated that one dedicated line was better than using three in my experience.And stated how I came to that conclusion.
I like to get involved in this hobby,get my hands dirty from time to time and experiment for myself before I accept that something just can't make a difference.
I at no time stated that everyone should go out and run live wires from their stereo to the water pipe to get better sound.
If those who raised red flags would have taken the time to check out what I said they would have know that the Torus was wired at the panel they way they specify in their install instructions.
Which means there is a ground wire at the panel that is from the dedicated power line to the Torus.
It was never defeated, or bypassed.
The breaker was functional,double pole 2 x 20 amp -- neutral wire to one half of breaker, hot wire to other half of breaker and ground wire to the panels ground buss bar. A 240 to the Torus -so the Torus is grounded at the panel.
But I told you that.
Why the rant?
Because if you don't know what you are talking about and have no experience with then why comment at all?

Chuck don't ruin their little "power" trip. It's what they do. I wouldn't trouble yourself with feeling the need to defend anything you have done. Keep participating as this Forum desperately needs more people like you.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing