How The Ear Works

Status
Not open for further replies.

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,702
2,790
Portugal
The music contains all of the emotion and the reproduction path from the recording to the listener should have none. If the recording is lifeless then the reproduction must be lifeless as well. The reproduction must not make a bad recording sound good because that would imply that it is alright for a good recording to be degraded.

Gedlee,
I have a doubt. How can you be sure that the recording is lifeless and it is not that particular reproduction system that makes it lifeless?
Something I learned while my equipment improved was that the general quality of the recordings is much better than I assumed and and many recordings I had assumed were "lifeless" were really good - but my system was not able to get the best from them.
Just to have a quantitative value - what percentage of your classical recordings do you consider "lifeless"?
 

Ron Party

WBF Founding Member
Apr 30, 2010
2,457
13
0
Oakland, CA
Gary, Dr. Geddes and Amir posted in another thread what I considered to be very interesting thoughts about how the ear works and the current status of scientific knowledge on that subject. I moved those posts here so we could have a dedicated thread about how the ear works, not to discuss the validity or applicability of DBTs. <snip> So how 'bout we stay on topic?


Now we have off-topic posts about the difference between fidelity and preference. Amir politely asked members to refrain from such discussion in this thread. Members are free to debate that topic in the debates section of our forum.

Please honor our plea to limit your posts to the original topic of this thread. And remember, Santa knows if you've been naughty or nice, and that applies to our requests.
 

Gedlee

WBF Technical Expert
Jul 21, 2010
364
0
0
Novi, MI
Gedlee,
I have a doubt. How can you be sure that the recording is lifeless and it is not that particular reproduction system that makes it lifeless?
Something I learned while my equipment improved was that the general quality of the recordings is much better than I assumed and and many recordings I had assumed were "lifeless" were really good - but my system was not able to get the best from them.
Just to have a quantitative value - what percentage of your classical recordings do you consider "lifeless"?

First, my experience is the opposite of your. As I continued to improve my system I kept hearing more and more flaws in the recordings. Almost everyone who has bought my speakers has commented on the exact same thing.

I don't have many classical recordings (maybe 1% of my collection), but I would have to say almost all of them are "bad". I find recorded classical music lacking - especially when compared to live. I am not a big classical fan to begin with, but none of the few recordings that I have are worth listening to. Some customers have brought over some decent ones, so they must exist, I just don't have any.
 

mauidan

Member Sponsor
Aug 2, 2010
1,512
11
36
Pukalani, HI
First, my experience is the opposite of your. As I continued to improve my system I kept hearing more and more flaws in the recordings. Almost everyone who has bought my speakers has commented on the exact same thing.

I don't have many classical recordings (maybe 1% of my collection), but I would have to say almost all of them are "bad". I find recorded classical music lacking - especially when compared to live. I am not a big classical fan to begin with, but none of the few recordings that I have are worth listening to. Some customers have brought over some decent ones, so they must exist, I just don't have any.

Earl-

So that we can attempt to calibrate our ear with yours, I'm wonder what are the recordings that you use to evaluate and demo your speakers?

Mele Kalikimaka,

Dan
 

Gedlee

WBF Technical Expert
Jul 21, 2010
364
0
0
Novi, MI
Earl-

So that we can attempt to calibrate our ear with yours, I'm wonder what are the recordings that you use to evaluate and demo your speakers?

Mele Kalikimaka,

Dan

Thats a great question! My opinion is completely irrelavent! Let me repeat that: MY OPINION IS COMPLETLY IRRELAVENT!. My "facts" are more often than not quite correct however.

So to be specific (and you can ask people about this) I am loath to put on anything that I like. I suggest that people bring their own source material - always. I know right-off-the-bat that someone who does NOT bring their own well-known CDs is not serious. It's a dead give-away.

And, oh, by the way, this psycho-acoustic stuff is very relavent to "How the ear works" since what the brain does, is very well know to over-power what the ear does, hence, if you do not understand the psychology of listening to an audio system, you will never understand "How the ear works" in this regard.
 

mauidan

Member Sponsor
Aug 2, 2010
1,512
11
36
Pukalani, HI
Thats a great question! My opinion is completely irrelavent! Let me repeat that: My "facts" are more often than not quite correct however.

So to be specific (and you can ask people about this) I am loath to put on anything that I like. I suggest that people bring their own source material - always. I know right-off-the-bat that someone who does NOT bring their own well-known CDs is not serious. It's a dead give-away.

And, oh, by the way, this psycho-acoustic stuff is very relavent to "How the ear works" since what the brain does, is very well know to over-power what the ear does, hence, if you do not understand the psychology of listening to an audio system, you will never understand "How the ear works" in this regard.

Earl-

Mahalo for the Wiki Wiki response.

Since you now state - "MY OPINION IS COMPLETLY IRRELAVENT!"

I guess we can also ignore this statement of your opinion:

"I have never heard a system better than mine and I spent very little (considering)." :cool:

Dan
 

Gedlee

WBF Technical Expert
Jul 21, 2010
364
0
0
Novi, MI
Oh absolutely! My opinion is totally biased and completely irrelavent. But when 100% of the reviewers of my room agree - none of whom I knew prior to their review - are consistant in their opinons, well that I think that you might want to consider.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,319
1,429
1,820
Manila, Philippines
I've experienced the same thing as Microstrip more notably on the front end. Most recordings just turned out to be real dogs but some, like Masquerade, the opening of Phantom of the Opera and one of my wife's favorites sounded brittle and compressed because my old CD player was having problems resolving the information. Switching to a single bit Delta Sigma player at 384 Fs and 5Hz to 25kHz power bandwidth (analog output stage built to be fast like say, a spectral) and instead of sounding mushed together the chorus spread out dynamically. I'm not saying you could now pick out every individual singer, what I'm saying is that the orchestra and vocalists were no longer crammed into the same space. This points, in my mind at least, improvements in time domain performance over my old player.

Okay, It's Christmas day over here and I promised to chime in and if not give some answers at the very least offer some food for thought. So here is my hopefully not too feeble attempt to do just that. Let's take a trip back in time.

It's been hypothesized that the reason we evolved to hear better in the horizontal plain is that both what our ancestors needed to eat and what wanted to eat or stomp on our ancestors lived on the ground. Gravity had more than anything else to do about that but you know what I mean :) Low frequencies in rhythm means you might get stomped, Low frequencies sustained means you you're about to get eaten. Mid and High frequencies tell you where and what direction your chow is. Hard to argue with this hypothesis for sure. Whatever the case, be it a genetically encoded instinct or completely learned responses, while obviously it's a combination of both, identification is always made by association. Further, it has been proven that not just tones but more so the progression and combination of tones spaced in time, illicit universal emotional responses. These are the building blocks for musical composition hence music being the "universal language".

Now we're in the age and modern man is making music. The sources of sound aside from the voice are no longer naturally occurring phenomena. My mother graduated with a Bachelor of Arts Degree in Music Majoring in the Piano. Her Master's Degree was in English Communication from Columbia U in NY. (I've been asked this a lot but no I did not learn english as a foreign language from Sesame Street, thanks to Mom and Dad I was fluent by age four) I learned my musical instruments as a child as she would play Peter and the Wolf for me with If I recall either Peter O'toole or Richard Burton narrating. If that exact record my Mom played for us were still around you can bet that my brother and I would play rock, paper, scissors for it for at least 24 hours straight. I did not hear maybe three quarter of these instruments live until I was well into my teens but I knew what they were when I finally heard them. I only heard a Kornet Ensemble live for the first time 5 years ago but I followed the music into that square in Sweden knowing what they were since I had a CD of Proprius' Kornet Har Van Sila.

Context neatly laid out......Riddle me this Batman:

Why is it that a person can identify the real thing when the person has only ever been exposed to the reproduction?
 

mauidan

Member Sponsor
Aug 2, 2010
1,512
11
36
Pukalani, HI
Oh absolutely! My opinion is totally biased and completely irrelavent. But when 100% of the reviewers of my room agree - none of whom I knew prior to their review - are consistant in their opinons, well that I think that you might want to consider.

Earl-

You’re a really funny guy.

So, now we go from scientific facts to second hand hearsay by an undisclosed group of "reviewers" with unproven hearing abilities.:cool:

Please give a pair of your speakers to SoundStage! Network for a review and testing at Canada's National Research Council (NRC), and then I’ll start to consider them.

Dan

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
5,599
225
1,190
Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com
I learned my musical instruments as a child as she would play Peter and the Wolf for me with If I recall either Peter O'toole or Richard Burton narrating. If that exact record my Mom played for us were still around you can bet that my brother and I would play rock, paper, scissors for it for at least 24 hours straight. I did not hear maybe three quarter of these instruments live until I was well into my teens but I knew what they were when I finally heard them.

Jack, I may have learned my musical instruments from Peter and the Wolf too. If it's the same record, it's on the 4-LP set The Wonderful World of Music for Children - Reader's Digest box set. Unfortunately, very difficult to find. The substitute I have for my kids is this (narrated by David Bowie!!):
http://www.amazon.com/Prokofiev-Bri...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1293311157&sr=1-2
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,702
2,790
Portugal
I learned my musical instruments as a child as she would play Peter and the Wolf for me with If I recall either Peter O'toole or Richard Burton narrating.

Jack,
When I was a child I listened to the LP with the wonderful version narrated by Roberto Carlos, the famous Brazilian singer. My child enjoyed the cassette tape, next generation will listen to the CD or MP3?

BTW, I think we want to have high quality systems just to hear the duck quacking inside the wolf's belly at the final parade! :)
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,238
81
1,725
New York City
Jack, I may have learned my musical instruments from Peter and the Wolf too. If it's the same record, it's on the 4-LP set The Wonderful World of Music for Children - Reader's Digest box set. Unfortunately, very difficult to find. The substitute I have for my kids is this (narrated by David Bowie!!):
http://www.amazon.com/Prokofiev-Bri...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1293311157&sr=1-2

There's a couple of recordings of Peter and the Wolf's that I keep around:

Decca SXL Skitch Henderson and Beatrice Lilly
EMI ASD with Andre Previn and Mia Farrow
Vanguard VSD-with Mario Rossi and Boris Karloff.
 

Ethan Winer

Banned
Jul 8, 2010
1,231
3
0
75
New Milford, CT
As I continued to improve my system I kept hearing more and more flaws in the recordings ... I don't have many classical recordings (maybe 1% of my collection), but I would have to say almost all of them are "bad".

That is exactly my experience too. A while back someone asked what my favorite recordings are, and it was difficult for me to name one. :D

--Ethan
 

Kal Rubinson

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2010
2,362
706
1,700
NYC
www.stereophile.com
I am not a big classical fan to begin with, but none of the few recordings that I have are worth listening to. Some customers have brought over some decent ones, so they must exist, I just don't have any.
On what basis do you select them? I have no trouble finding excellent ones but there are many that are not.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,238
81
1,725
New York City
That is exactly my experience too. A while back someone asked what my favorite recordings are, and it was difficult for me to name one. :D

--Ethan

Pray tell Ethan, what do YOU consider improving your system???? And you're asking us to believe that out of the millions of recordings done, there's not ONE that sounds good (performance aside). C'mon.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
There seems to be a common thread here on this thread. If you have "improved" your stereo to the point that all recordings sound bad on it, guess what, there is somethling seriously wrong with your stereo. Quit blaming the music and take a look at your stereo system. Normally the opposite is true. The more you improve your system, the more you hear from the music you own. It should get better, not worse if you are making real improvements. This is sort of like the Emperor with no clothes. If you can't come up with a single piece of music that you want to play somebody in order to show your system off, your probably butt naked and don't know it.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
A few years ago I spent quite a bit of time testing DACs. In every case, the improvement in performance had a positive effect, with more detailed, smooth and spacious sound. I don't recall a single piece of music ever sounding worse with a higher fidelity DAC.

Likewise, when I improve the fidelity of the room, the music sounds better just the same. So I hope Ethan was joking as otherwise, he might be putting himself out of a job :).
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,319
1,429
1,820
Manila, Philippines
There seems to be a common thread here on this thread. If you have "improved" your stereo to the point that all recordings sound bad on it, guess what, there is somethling seriously wrong with your stereo. Quit blaming the music and take a look at your stereo system. Normally the opposite is true. The more you improve your system, the more you hear from the music you own. It should get better, not worse if you are making real improvements. This is sort of like the Emperor with no clothes. If you can't come up with a single piece of music that you want to play somebody in order to show your system off, your probably butt naked and don't know it.

"Improving" your system to the point of rendering your software unlistenable, really is the most illogical thing I've ever heard from a hobbyists perspective. A revealing system has got to reveal the good as well as the bad. If it just reveals the bad chances are the system IS bad and is highlighting the 4k region. This will inevitably lead to a measured flat vs curve debate and expect fletcher-munson graphs to spontaneously pop up. Thankfully this will all steer things back onto this topic.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,319
1,429
1,820
Manila, Philippines
There's a couple of recordings of Peter and the Wolf's that I keep around:

Decca SXL Skitch Henderson and Beatrice Lilly
EMI ASD with Andre Previn and Mia Farrow
Vanguard VSD-with Mario Rossi and Boris Karloff.

Hubba hubba!

I'm hunting down the 1965 Decca with Sean Connery. That should be cool :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing