A question about room demands on speakers

Zero000 · May 15, 2017

sbo6 said:
Wow, having flashbacks of the infamous and final Peter Breuninger thread...

Dude - hearing multiple component(s) in multiple systems for a few hours at a shot doesn't make you the master judge of all things audio. 1/2 this group probably falls in this category. This hobby is so subjective everything needs to be taken with more than a few grains of salt so lighten up please. It's all good.

Opposition is true friendship.

Don't get us wrong - underneath it all we are mates

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

User211 said:
Ked you listen to all said amps and you think you know them but you don't. The character varies with the speakers, you get quick shots of particular amps for 2-3 hours at some dudes house you've invited yourself to, when in reality in takes weeks to really get to know a component in your own system.

And your own systems have been failures. And quickly, too. Haven't you learnt anything yet?

No, the amps I like I have heard repeatedly with different speakers. Mostly even different rooms. I write of their character only if it repeats consistently.

My ML system and Verity were quite good. Failures? By scintilla, horn, and as sota room standards yes. I think you know I preferred my summits to your Apogees. But as far as normal small rooms go, no. But I am not interested in those and not interested in building till I can get a scintilla or a horn in the right room. I lose interest as soon as I get it in

Zero000 · May 15, 2017

bonzo75 said:
No, the amps I like I have heard repeatedly with different speakers. Mostly even different rooms. I write of their character only if it repeats consistently.

My ML system and Verity were quite good. Failures? By scintilla, horn, and as sota room standards yes. I think you know I preferred my summits to your Apogees. But as far as normal small rooms go, no. But I am not interested in those and not interested in building till I can get a scintilla or a horn in the right room. I lose interest as soon as I get it in

So why go and buy an expensive amp you haven't heard then? I give up. See you at Munich... for giggles.

And I don't really believe that Summit assertion, your just saying it for impact.

sbo6 · May 15, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Didn't say I was. I was suggesting not judging without listening at all. Try to note the difference. And we are pretty light here. Justin and I go at each other for warm up

My friend, what I notice is an attitude above kidding hence your friend's repeated not so friendly replies.

Lighten up and listen to some tunes on a system.

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

User211 said:
So why go and buy an expensive amp you haven't heard then? I give up. See you at Munich... for giggles.

And I don't really believe that Summit assertion, your just saying it for impact.

Nope. You know I was chasing analysis for a while over the Apogees. My apogee turn only started after I heard henks and others, and I think a large reason could be the amps. Why do you think I was not chasing apogee before

sbo6 · May 15, 2017

WRT the OPs question - While I haven't heard Apogees I've heard many dipoles in many rooms. As folks have already reiterated bass pressurization may be a problem. I wouldn't worry about mids + high especially if you can get the Apogees far enough away from the front wall implementing diffusion behind them. Also, wrt the 1/2 wall and its effectiveness - that's tough to answer and much depends on how permanent and the location of the bifurcation wall. Sitting closer would definitely alleviate some of the problem.

spiritofmusic · May 15, 2017

Ked, you claim you're an accurate reporter of audio experiences, incl amps
And Justin, you claim deep down you're good buddies w Ked
Maybe you can both relate to us the story of the Ayon Orthos amps on Justin's Duettas, and in relation to Justin's 211s
I'm afraid I've heard totally divergent reports on this
And as a result makes me doubt claims of fair and unbiased reporting of gear

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Ked, you claim you're an accurate reporter of audio experiences, incl amps
And Justin, you claim deep down you're good buddies w Ked
Maybe you can both relate to us the story of the Ayon Orthos amps on Justin's Duettas, and in relation to Justin's 211s
I'm afraid I've heard totally divergent reports on this
And as a result makes me doubt claims of fair and unbiased reporting of gear

That is an amp we both heard, so that is a divergence of opinion. I didn't like it on apogee, I liked it better than Justin's, he liked it but not as much as his 211, I am convinced a high current class A will outstrip all. Please note, I never reported on any character on the amp

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

And Marc, accurate reporter is different from diligent reporter_ the Luxman, for example, I compared to Ypsilon Aelius on vivds, Gryphon Mephisto on TAD, and viola on TAD and YG. The Aelius I heard in two other systems. Gryphon colosseum was compared with Burmester which was compared in 4 other systems, and so on

spiritofmusic · May 15, 2017

Hmm
I heard it clipped on the Duettas, his 211s haven't
You didn't feel it relevant to reveal that?
I'm not sure how an amp that clips on the Duettas can sound better than an amp that doesn't
Or are we only judging it on the periods where it didn't clip?

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Hmm
I heard it clipped on the Duettas, his 211s haven't
You didn't feel it relevant to reveal that?
I'm not sure how an amp that clips on the Duettas can sound better than an amp that doesn't
Or are we only judging it on the periods where it didn't clip?

No, in triode mode it did, in pentode it didn't. That's why it has those modes. Marc, why do you think I did not do any write up on it. It was not good enough for Apogees imo, the Krell and plinius I like better on Apogees

Barry2013 · May 15, 2017

Hi Marc
Leaving it as one large room seems to create more problems than gains and dividing it into two smaller rooms seems to makes more sense sound quality wise plus the benefit of a dedicated home cinema room.
The discussion also seems to be on the premise of the speakers firing down the room. If I have understood correctly the room is 18 feet wide. If you divided it into two rooms and even allowing for the eaves you could have the additional option of firing across the room.
That option does not seem to have been considered, possibly for very good reasons, and I am curious as to why.

spiritofmusic · May 15, 2017

We really hear in different ways
For me, I loved Justin's Duettas sound on those 211s
Once I edited out his overly digital sounding source, I truly appreciated how liquid the presentation was
I'm struggling to see where SS would beat this, bearing in mind Justin's room was a nice snug fit for those 211s and they excelled there
Just how you can say they're not good enough for Duettas is beyond me
And how an alternative that clips on the Duettas is better than the 211s of Justin's?
For me, the joy of hearing 211s and Duettas sound so liquid and artifact free was a big plus of the demo
What more are you looking for, Ked?

Ron Resnick · May 15, 2017

With dipoles, in your situation (as in mine, to a lesser degree of flexibility) when you can place the speakers as far into the room and as far away from the front wall as you wish, I believe in not absorbing the back wave.

There is a formula for determining the timing of the rear wave's arrival at your ears based on the distance of the speakers from the front wall. I intend to start with the 1/3 rule (Flemming recommends this method as well) and then adjust closer to or further from the front wall to personal taste.

We all love theorizing about different scenarios, but you do not need to decide how to divide the room now. If you get Duettas, you can live with them for a long time first to see how they behave in your current room.

If, someday, you do decide to divide the room, I see no harm in setting the length of the listening room portion based on Golden Ratio dimensions, rather than on some arbitrary dimension.

the sound of Tao · May 15, 2017

^^^ great advice Ron, half the fun with panels is in being able to hear the value in dialling in and optimising position in relationship to the room. Just takes time and is a fantastic learning experience for the benefits of fine tuning with positioning speakers in general... with full panel ribbons it is often quite easy to discern changes.

The magic with dipoles is getting the slight delay in the rear reflected sound just right so that your brain gets the second bite at perceiving the tone while the delay adds a quality of natural aliveness and an added sense of presence.

sbo6 · May 15, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
With dipoles, in your situation (as in mine, to a lesser degree of flexibility) when you can place the speakers as far into the room and as far away from the front wall as you wish, I believe in not absorbing the back wave.

There is a formula for determining the timing of the rear wave's arrival at your ears based on the distance of the speakers from the front wall. I intend to start with the 1/3 rule (Flemming recommends this method as well) and then adjust closer to or further from the front wall to personal taste.

Ron, if I recall when I had my MLs I think it also depends on the speaker distance to the sweet spot.

Ron Resnick · May 15, 2017

Definitely! That distance also affects the timing of the rear wave.

Rodney Gold · May 16, 2017

I vote split the room.. 25x 18 makes much more sense than 50x18

thekong · May 16, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
So, in my 36' deep room, taking the 1/3 concept, we'd be looking at Duettas 12' from front wall, 12' to listening position, and 12' listening position to rear wall?

Marc, if you are to follow Limage’s (moniker of the Magneplanar guru in Hong Kong) concept, and your room is a true rectangle (i.e. not truncated, no slanted walls) then, instead of 1/3, the ideal speaker location is more likely to be 40/60, 40% from front wall (wall at the back of speaker) to speaker, and 60% from speaker to back wall.

18x36x9"

Again, if your room is a true rectangle, I would be very concern about these ratios, as 18 and 36 are multiples of 9, and 36 is also a multiple of 18. You may have serious problem with standing waves. You probably would want to get as further away from any multiples as possible, and aim for 1.3, 1.8, 2.3 etc. The 1.5, 2.5 etc. doesn’t seem to cause much problem, but I would try to avoid that also if possible. This is also an audio room design concept of Limage.

I have experienced Limage’s speaker placement and room dimension concepts in multiple rooms, and it has always worked great!

But then, since your room has slanted walls, all bets maybe off!

Not sure whether the following is the write-up that Ked has mentioned, but I suggest you take a look and experience moving your speakers accordingly to see whether this method works for your situation. With this Room Coupling concept, we are trying to find the “focal point” of the room, and it seems the sweet spot would remain pretty much the same no matter what speaker is used. So, your current Zu is already a good reference. In Limage’s old audio room, we compared the positioning of the small BBC LS3/5A and the Maggie 3.6, and the ideal location was pretty much exactly the same!

http://www.1pekingroad.com/zaspx/replies.aspx?topicsno=3&subjectno=874&uppersubjectno=874&sortby=updatedate&orderby=asc

Zero000 · May 16, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
We really hear in different ways
For me, I loved Justin's Duettas sound on those 211s
Once I edited out his overly digital sounding source, I truly appreciated how liquid the presentation was
I'm struggling to see where SS would beat this, bearing in mind Justin's room was a nice snug fit for those 211s and they excelled there
Just how you can say they're not good enough for Duettas is beyond me
And how an alternative that clips on the Duettas is better than the 211s of Justin's?
For me, the joy of hearing 211s and Duettas sound so liquid and artifact free was a big plus of the demo
What more are you looking for, Ked?

We were streaming TIDAL. Here's the watermarking stuff and what it sounds like, smack back where the ear is sensitive: https://www.mattmontag.com/music/universals-audible-watermark

Not all is watermarked, though. CD rips do sound notably smoother on some albums and we could have used that as a source, but the idea was to let you listen to stuff you knew.

A question about room demands on speakers

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