A question about room demands on speakers

Zero000 · May 15, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Oh, I have a ton of flexibility w the Duetta
At 8' seperation they're 2.5' from side walls, outer top edge 2' from descending eaves
I can place them 5' to 9' from front wall
I can sit from 1" to 45' from them
So, I'll be going from my Zus w full range drivers and Radian Supertweeters 40Hz-20kHz+ 101dB eff all driven by 70W parallel 211s, w deep bass Class D 300W to <20Hz which absolutely lock into my room
Ked's advice is the logical one
If I love 'em and feel I can't live w'out 'em, buy 'em
And make my deal w the Devil and go SS
And in time forget the true love that is SETs
??????

Bolded bit - crap idea.

People think that 18 x 11 x 8 is way too small for Duettas. As you heard, they are freakin' well wrong. It is a fantastic size for them.

I haven't told you this, but before I moved into this house and that flea sized room was allocated to hi-fi largely by agreement and compromise with the wife, I ran Martin Logan Ascents in a 12 by 28 ft room with a Descent. Placing them in the same room you heard the Duettas in, with an 80Watt Air Tight ATM2, did sound quite a bit better.

However, amp power was sufficient in both spaces, but only just. Ascents need more than 80 Watts IMHO. I used to listen at about 12 ft from the speakers, with open space behind me for 12 extra feet. It was OK.

Then I got said 211 amps and realised there was 80 Watts and 80 Watts. The 211s could drive way louder than the Air Tight. At 41Kg per monoblock you'd kind of hope so in a probably illogical manner.

The 211s will obviously clip but you never need to set them that loudly because for most intents and purposes it is way loud enough by that stage already. That means you will get some decent volume from a good 70 Watter I think.

Keep a solid state amp in reserve for when you want to get silly and the wife is out. At least half a KW for kicks and make sure you use a tube pre. Also, unlike me, make sure you don't have to grovel around the floor just to connect the solid state option up. You have the space.

If you ever get there Marc, I'll post you my £200 600W Apart Champ One. When you hear that driving Duettas, you will absolutely **** yourself laughing. Or at least smile a bit. Because it is funny. How can an amp that cheap do so well?

I took it to a bake off and had it driving all sorts. It was rated there as great by pretty much all. Here is the spec, the link is safe: www.ars-akustika.com/bedienungsanleitungen.html?file=tl_files/...Champ_One.pdf

It is way better than a Crown Ked.

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

Imagine then what a proper 600w amp would do

spiritofmusic · May 15, 2017

Justin, my room is bigger yet than yr bigger one just mentioned by a factor of 2x, at 18x36x9 (revised depth from 50, I'll be blocking off alcove for Lp, cd and Blu Ray storage)
I was considering splitting the space to reduce the depth, but I really love how my NATs/Zus fill the space as is, and I want to have my 60s Gretsch Roundbadge drum kit behind me to pound away should Nirvana or Zep land on my tt
So, all arguments on Duettas ownership for me converge on the suitability of 70W SET 211s in driving the Duettas to energise 680 sq ft/4000 cub ft
Btw I put in Genesis "Los Endos" as my first track played since the NATs Utopia came back serviced and hum free
Fascinating comparison to the same track streamed at yrs via the 211s/Duettas last wk and in Barry's 45s/Duos/SGM/Dac8
All three systems presented the music so differently, compelling in their own ways
Duettas just uber energetic and attention grabbing
Duos transparent and delicate
Zus tonally dense and involving
A testament to my acoustic and uber low noise flr that my Zus have been transformed into an impressive blend of detail retrieval, tone density and smoothness

Zero000 · May 15, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Imagine then what a proper 600w amp would do

**** you off you were stupid enough to spend so much?

I'd rate the Apart as below a Parasound A21. but it is good.

Zero000 · May 15, 2017

Marc the point was if you have 12 foot of empty space behind you then a load more won't make much difference.

Kedar - high performance low distortion solid state amps all have different sonic signatures. That doesn't necessarily mean the really expensive one will beat the cheaper one. The cheaper one may even appeal more. That's the problem. That's why a £50K amp can get beat by a £5K one if you simply prefer the signature of the £5K one. The box quality and size of the £50K one will tell you you MUST be soooo wrong about that though (hint of sarcasm). Fight against that psychological imprint.

That said, the £50K one may well walk it in every parameter. The real trick is to find the cheaper "jewels" you actually like.

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

User211 said:
Marc the point was if you have 12 foot of empty space behind you then a load more won't make much difference.

Kedar - high performance low distortion solid state amps all have different sonic signatures. That doesn't necessarily mean the really expensive one will beat the cheaper one. The cheaper one may even appeal more. That's the problem. That's why a £50K amp can get beat by a £5K one if you simply prefer the signature of the £5K one. The box quality and size of the £50K one will tell you you MUST be soooo wrong about that though (hint of sarcasm). Fight against that psychological imprint.

That said, the £50K one may well walk it in every parameter. The real trick is to find the cheaper "jewels" you actually like.

Why are you telling me that - I know what the proper amps are price points way better than you. I also know the different sonic signatures of amps you wouldn't know. When did you find me not searching for cheaper jewels on any front - thing is to save money you can't end up a with a stone, you need a jewel.

spiritofmusic · May 15, 2017

Thoughts on distance of Apogees to front wall?
Does it depend on size/depth of room, or is there a consistent distance in different installs I varying sizes of rooms?

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Thoughts on distance of Apogees to front wall?
Does it depend on size/depth of room, or is there a consistent distance in different installs I varying sizes of rooms?

Henk said that at 2m the lower end improves, below 2m he finds problems at below 100Hz. There is the other theory for Maggies/Apogees that someone in Hong Kong started and Gallant Diva uses - I have put the details on my Apogee Full Range thread, if you can search for it - it says put the panels at 1/3rd of the length in

Zero000 · May 15, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Why are you telling me that - I know what the proper amps are price points way better than you. I also know the different sonic signatures of amps you wouldn't know. When did you find me not searching for cheaper jewels on any front - thing is to save money you can't end up a with a stone, you need a jewel.

Bullshit. I've been into this hobby since I was 15 - younger really I still remember the amps my brother used to use when I was about 8 onwards. That's 40 years solid.

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

User211 said:
Bullshit. I've been into this hobby since I was 15 - younger really I still remember the amps my brother used to use. That's 40 years solid.

Yet you haven't heard Luxman, Dagostino, Vitus, Gryphon, Berning, Viola, Burmester, Symphonic Line, Constellation - and their various models 0 not that I say all of them are good. And by the way, hear does not mean spot at a hifi show. Parasound, some basic krell, and jeff rowland class D don't constitute much of a subset.

Btw, since you are into this for 40 years, maybe one day you will get round to listening to an FR, Grand, Diva, Scintilla, or other duettas

- if you do try the ones run by high current

Zero000 · May 15, 2017

Ked I don't take you seriously, just like no one should take me seriously. We all think we all know what's best when really we haven't got a clue because everyone is different.

Forget thinking you're much wiser than anyone else, and that your opinions count anymore than anyone else's, because they don't.

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

User211 said:
Ked I don't take you seriously, just like no one should take me seriously. We all think we all know what's best when really we haven't got a clue because everyone is different.

Forget thinking you're much wiser than anyone else, and that your opinions count anymore than anyone else's, because they don't.

I don't - I just try listening. You are saying you are right without trying out these amps. If I thought I was as wise I would give opinions without trying gear out.

spiritofmusic · May 15, 2017

So, in my 36' deep room, taking the 1/3 concept, we'd be looking at Duettas 12' from front wall, 12' to listening position, and 12' listening position to rear wall?

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
So, in my 36' deep room, taking the 1/3 concept, we'd be looking at Duettas 12' from front wall, 12' to listening position, and 12' listening position to rear wall?

The 12' is right, not sure of sitting. It is a pretty detailed write-up, you need to read it. The problem with a big room is that you could be adjusting speakers forever. You will get lot when you get the placement right. In most rooms we have only slight room to manoeuvre.

Zero000 · May 15, 2017

I have heard pretty much all the amps in question, but I'm not convinced there's some pretty super magical difference that occurs outside of hi-fi shows TBH. It isn't like the amps mutate or something.

I have no interest in any other Apogee design apart from Duetta because that's all I can use realistically. So what's the point? Best concentrate on actually trying to get the best out of the design I am interested in. My understanding is quite a bit deeper than yours. I see no evidence of any creational activity on your part.

The decades I've spent listening to stuff counts for more IMHO than your sudden burst into the hobby. But I will give your super star status for effort. Better than virtually anyone else on the planet for curiousity and "will travel".

spiritofmusic · May 15, 2017

Ok Ked, so in yr travels to varied Apogees setups, what sort of distances have you sat from Grands, FRs, Divas, Scintillas and Duettas? And how have the experiences changed depending on those distances?

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

User211 said:
I have heard pretty much all the amps in question, but I'm not convinced there's some pretty super magical difference that occurs outside of hi-fi shows TBH. It isn't like the amps mutate or something.

I have no interest in any other Apogee design apart from Duetta because that's all I can use realistically. So what's the point? Best concentrate on actually trying to get the best out of the design I am interested in. My understanding is quite a bit deeper than yours. I see no evidence of any creational activity on your part.

The decades I've spent listening to stuff counts for more IMHO than your sudden burst into the hobby. But I will give your super star status for effort. Better than virtually anyone else on the planet for curiosity and "will travel".

So you heard the amps on my list? Which models? And I don't mean at a show, but did you hear them enough to get the sonic signature? Feel free to post the sonic signature of Luxman, Vitus, Gryphon, symphonic line, Dagostino. It's not years but gears that count. You can add others like Halcro, analog domain, boulder, plinius, etc etc

sbo6 · May 15, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Why are you telling me that - I know what the proper amps are price points way better than you. I also know the different sonic signatures of amps you wouldn't know. When did you find me not searching for cheaper jewels on any front - thing is to save money you can't end up a with a stone, you need a jewel.

Wow, having flashbacks of the infamous and final Peter Breuninger thread...

Dude - hearing multiple component(s) in multiple systems for a few hours at a shot doesn't make you the master judge of all things audio. 1/2 this group probably falls in this category. This hobby is so subjective everything needs to be taken with more than a few grains of salt so lighten up please. It's all good.

Zero000 · May 15, 2017

bonzo75 said:
So you heard the amps on my list? Which models? And I don't mean at a show, but did you hear them enough to get the sonic signature? Feel free to post the sonic signature of Luxman, Vitus, Gryphon, symphonic line, Dagostino. It's not years but gears that count. You can add others like Halcro, analog domain, boulder, plinius, etc etc

Ked you listen to all said amps and you think you know them but you don't. The character varies with the speakers, you get quick shots of particular amps for 2-3 hours at some dudes house you've invited yourself to, when in reality in takes weeks to really get to know a component in your own system.

And your own systems have been failures. And quickly, too. Haven't you learnt anything yet?

bonzo75 · May 15, 2017

sbo6 said:
Wow, having flashbacks of the infamous and final Peter Breuninger thread...

Dude - hearing multiple component(s) in multiple systems for a few hours at a shot doesn't make you the master judge of all things audio. 1/2 this group probably falls in this category. This hobby is so subjective everything needs to be taken with more than a few grains of salt so lighten up please. It's all good.

Didn't say I was. I was suggesting not judging without listening at all. Try to note the difference. And we are pretty light here. Justin and I go at each other for warm up

A question about room demands on speakers

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