Another Apogee thread? You bet!

CGabriel

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Thanks, Kong. Good information. Sounds like a more refined version of the Harry Pearson 1/3 and 2/3 rules. Although we have a diamond shaped room and it is a LEDE room - I will still give this a try. Through trial and error my speaker and chair are pretty close to 1/3 and 2/3. And as you have said, different speakers whether panels or box speakers all seem to work best in about the same location. Large ported speakers are the exception since they radiate off the cone and out the port.
 

thekong

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Hi Caelin, I would be very interested to know whether the method works in a diamond shaped room!

Thanks
 

CGabriel

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Hi Caelin, I would be very interested to know whether the method works in a diamond shaped room!

Thanks

Yes, the room is a sealed, floated room within a room. So the floor floats on isolation blocks and the walls are isolated from any of the main building structures. This to avoid conduction of building vibration into the audio room. The front walls are faceted to avoid parallel surfaces and roof slopes upward as it travels towards the back wall. It has dual gasketed doors. So, there is a 40db noise reduction is moise from the outside. The air comditioning vent to the room was designed to eliminate noise and is designed like a transmission line to avoid creating resonant modes in the room. There is a separate adjoining room where all the electronics are located. The cables pass through the wall with a sealed and isolated conduit.
 

christoph

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Surely there must be some actual owners who gave Marc that no more than 5 feet from the wall feedback for his room

I also have/had my Apogees about 3m away from the back wall. The more the better...

In a very small room, there might be a position where less distance to the back wall can sound better (in the bass) than a little more distance because of the wavelength relative to the room dimensions but that's not a general rule. A Little further out into the room, it can sound even better ;-)

In a large room, in my experience, the more distance to the back wall, the better
 

Zero000

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I've been playing with a crossover simulator called XSim on and off, and implementing the changes using cheap Monacor caps, coils and resistors.

This was with deliberate view to changing the frequency response of the mid range and treble ribbon on the speakers this thread was raised to discuss.

A few weeks ago I decided after a few months of listening that the actual electrical values were good i.e. the target frequency response was met. So I swapped out the cheap components and put about £250 worth of PathAudio resistors, a very hefty Jantzen cross coil, and some Jantzen Alumen Z-Caps in.

What a difference over the Monacor components. This has amounted to a serious uplift in mid range and treble quality that was way beyond my expectations. It is easier on the ear by far, and genuinely sounds really friggin' nice. After various mods to Duettas (both restored and Interstella) including different types of mid range/treble ribbons, and playing with inductor values and gauges in the past too, this is without doubt a genuine leap forward in mid range and treble quality to my ears.

There's a really nice synergy going on with these new components, and it shows just how good Apogee mid range and treble quality can be. The overly etched quality that was there when Marc was here (he described as overly digital but we're talking the same thing here I am sure) and in previous visits by Kedar is much reduced, but not so far that the speakers sound too soft. There's still sufficient bite to sound right when the material contains it.

I may try some Jupiter copper foil in paper and wax caps later in place of the Jantzen Alumen Z-Caps. I'm not sure that the extra money on the Jupiters will work out as it may upset what seems to be an alarmingly good result.

The Jantzen cap recommendation came from HumbleHomemade Hi-Fi.

The best tube in the Lampizator now appears to be the KR PX4 for mid range and treble. That has really seriously surprised me too. I previously hadn't thought it to be that great in those regions in the sense that it seemed to get too harsh at times.

What a fine balance it is to get things right. Very fine indeed.
 

Sablon Audio

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Maybe first try adding some Duelund silver bypasses to the Jantzen as they give a fair bit more openness and sparkle without losing the innate underlying character which appears to work so well in your system. They made a nice addition to the Rikes I use on the tweeters of my Benesch ACT.
 

bonzo75

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I've been playing with a crossover simulator called XSim on and off, and implementing the changes using cheap Monacor caps, coils and resistors.

This was with deliberate view to changing the frequency response of the mid range and treble ribbon on the speakers this thread was raised to discuss.

A few weeks ago I decided after a few months of listening that the actual electrical values were good i.e. the target frequency response was met. So I swapped out the cheap components and put about £250 worth of PathAudio resistors, a very hefty Jantzen cross coil, and some Jantzen Alumen Z-Caps in.

What a difference over the Monacor components. This has amounted to a serious uplift in mid range and treble quality that was way beyond my expectations. It is easier on the ear by far, and genuinely sounds really friggin' nice. After various mods to Duettas (both restored and Interstella) including different types of mid range/treble ribbons, and playing with inductor values and gauges in the past too, this is without doubt a genuine leap forward in mid range and treble quality to my ears.

There's a really nice synergy going on with these new components, and it shows just how good Apogee mid range and treble quality can be. The overly etched quality that was there when Marc was here (he described as overly digital but we're talking the same thing here I am sure) and in previous visits by Kedar is much reduced, but not so far that the speakers sound too soft. There's still sufficient bite to sound right when the material contains it.

I may try some Jupiter copper foil in paper and wax caps later in place of the Jantzen Alumen Z-Caps. I'm not sure that the extra money on the Jupiters will work out as it may upset what seems to be an alarmingly good result.

The Jantzen cap recommendation came from HumbleHomemade Hi-Fi.

The best tube in the Lampizator now appears to be the KR PX4 for mid range and treble. That has really seriously surprised me too. I previously hadn't thought it to be that great in those regions in the sense that it seemed to get too harsh at times.

What a fine balance it is to get things right. Very fine indeed.

Jupiters and duelunds. And let me know when you build your way to PX25, special 45 and 242 :rolleyes:
 

Zero000

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To Sablon: I had thought about it already. Jon the Apogee man in these parts is off the opinion the values of caps I am using relative to the Dueland bypass caps means the bypass caps won't make much difference. I've been discussing this all with Jon as I have been working. But until you try...:)(wink).
 

Sablon Audio

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To Sablon: I had thought about it already. Jon the Apogee man in these parts is off the opinion the values of caps I am using relative to the Dueland bypass caps means the bypass caps won't make much difference. I've been discussing this all with Jon as I have been working. But until you try...:)(wink).

Is a cheap punt and can always be used elsewhere in your system such as in your dac if you don't like. Fwiw my tweeter caps are 3.9uf so the 0.01uf bypass cap represent just 0.25% of their value which is well below the usual 1% yardstick.
 

Zero000

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Is a cheap punt and can always be used elsewhere in your system such as in your dac if you don't like. Fwiw my tweeter caps are 3.9uf so the 0.01uf bypass cap represent just 0.25% of their value which is well below the usual 1% yardstick.

This thread put me off ordering some.

I'm pretty convinced rolling caps, resistors and inductors is a voodoo art with unpredictable results, just like rolling tubes. High bucks won't necessarily render the best result. It just depends on what works with your system setup as it is at the time you do it.

I might try a Jupiter copper foil bypass to test effectiveness. Why? Whenever I try something silver in the form of ICs I never seem to really like it. Same logic might apply here. But then again it might not. Who knows... this is foo territory, after all.
 

spiritofmusic

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Justin, despite yr reservations on the AN/Zu type full range tonal sound, it looks like you're at least edging in this direction LOL.
I have to say yr Interstellas have still left their impression on me a couple of months on.
But my main reservation w yr presentation was the overtly upper mid/treble-centric presentation.
Having done a couple of dozen live unamplified gigs in the last month, the real thing is much more low midband/upper bass, and I'm not sure this is necessarily the Apogee signature from the Divas and (your) Duettas demos I've been at.
 

Sablon Audio

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Fwiw I have evaluated ostensibly identical cables using 4N silver from several different suppliers and they all sounded different. I suspect the annealing and drawing processes used have a big influence on the sonic signature. Anyhow, I didn't detect any silver signature to the Duelund bypasses but did use silk tubing on the 'legs'. You could also try cotton for a warmer presentation.
 

Zero000

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Justin, despite yr reservations on the AN/Zu type full range tonal sound, it looks like you're at least edging in this direction LOL.
I have to say yr Interstellas have still left their impression on me a couple of months on.
But my main reservation w yr presentation was the overtly upper mid/treble-centric presentation.
Having done a couple of dozen live unamplified gigs in the last month, the real thing is much more low midband/upper bass, and I'm not sure this is necessarily the Apogee signature from the Divas and (your) Duettas demos I've been at.

The Monacor components were in when you came round. They were quite hard hitting mid range wise, and I later swapped in an original Apogee resistor (Ohmite, actually quite cheap but this one was very age annealed LOL) of a different value an found a pretty pleasing balance. That value was the final value used in that section of the crossover. The effect is to pull the mid range and low HF in over quite a bit of a wider range than you heard.

I also replaced a resistor bank with just one PathAudio resistor elsewhere.

That Monacor setup could sound pretty ******* amazing at times but it was far from refined and quite mid/low treble forward as you say.

The current setup sounds like the mid/treble is more integrated and less "standout". It is also sweeter and notably more euphonic with a more pleasing tonal quality over a wider range of music.

You could spend years messing around with Apogee crossovers and I expect I probably will LOL:) The real issue, I think, is that a true ribbon is just so revealing - more so I think than just about anything out there. Even in this pulled back state there's a wealth of detail but it just happens to be much easier on the ear. A surprising result.
 

bonzo75

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Justin, despite yr reservations on the AN/Zu type full range tonal sound, it looks like you're at least edging in this direction LOL.
I have to say yr Interstellas have still left their impression on me a couple of months on.
But my main reservation w yr presentation was the overtly upper mid/treble-centric presentation.
Having done a couple of dozen live unamplified gigs in the last month, the real thing is much more low midband/upper bass, and I'm not sure this is necessarily the Apogee signature from the Divas and (your) Duettas demos I've been at.

Apogee set up right have my favorite lower mid upper bass. Unmatched. Amps have a lot to do with that though, and that is why you need a high current class A power amp
 

Zero000

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Fwiw I have evaluated ostensibly identical cables using 4N silver from several different suppliers and they all sounded different. I suspect the annealing and drawing processes used have a big influence on the sonic signature. Anyhow, I didn't detect any silver signature to the Duelund bypasses but did use silk tubing on the 'legs'. You could also try cotton for a warmer presentation.

When you applied the Dueland bypass was that done just by itself, so that you could assess purely that change? If so, what was the benefit?

As I swapped in all the new components in one fell swoop I have not assessed the effect of the resistors, caps and coils by themselves, which is a bit disappointing in a sense.
 

Zero000

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Apogee set up right have my favorite lower mid upper bass. Unmatched. Amps have a lot to do with that though, and that is why you need a high current class A power amp

If you want to blow people away with Jim Keltner on drums at high volume then yes.
 

bonzo75

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Sablon Audio

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When you applied the Dueland bypass was that done just by itself, so that you could assess purely that change? If so, what was the benefit?

Yes, was done in isolation and gave a more spacious air with greater detail, extension and sweetness.
 

Zero000

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Just in case anyone wonders what I have been doing is addressing the issue detailed by this review in the 3-5KHz region. It is probably the least flattering review of the DS but it does make some very interesting points. Also, it makes some very odd statements that I can't relate to especially the handling of drums, which IMHO and that of others is very good indeed. That said I did try a Sheffield Labs version of the Usher test disc track Improvisation. The Sheffield Labs version sounds dreadful, for some reason, so that is probably why.

The real question in my mind is why didn't Apogee do what I have done? It really isn't that hard to work out what to do, especially simple for me with the aid of modern day computer programs. That said they did provide a three position switch for mid range / treble tailoring but it isn't targeted specifically at the area of concern. Maybe they just felt the switch provided the best flexibility and set of overall compromises.

EDIT: It is the Audio magazine review that the link was supposed to point to. He tries to correlate measurements with sound, which is very sensible, but it only gets you so far. Then you just need ears:)
 
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