Have you heard the new WAMM? Any good?

Lee

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Feb 3, 2011
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Wilson's use of second order electrical makes it impossible to achieve time alignment in the strictest sense - because the mid driver needs to be phase flipped to provide 'phase' alignment with the woofers and tweeter. That said, the level of phase alignment / coherence achieved is vastly better than average, because the drive units are (or can be) precisely positioned in space for a given listening height and distance. And this matters lots because the small amount of harmonic distortion energy from any individual drive unit is time and phase aligned relative to the other drive units when the speaker is correctly set up. I wonder if this is why Wilson speakers sound so coherent and can also convey a level of realism that many other otherwise fine speakers are not quite able to match? Achieving a flat phase response is obviously preferable - but this is something that's now quite easy to achieve externally with DSP correction. Sure, speakers can be made to work with first order filters, but the amount of driver overlap makes for a very messy vertical polar response which in a typical reflective room can render the benefits next to useless, or at best isolated to a very small listening area. There's also the issue of the phase response of the drive units themselves which becomes more problematic, and usually necessitating the addition of correction networks in the crossover. I don't think it's surprising that many speakers that claim to be time and phase perfect end up sounding less than perfect in most respects.

Isn't this problematic with respect to having to use ADC/DAC conversions when you go DSP? That two step creates signal loss.
 

parkcaka

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Sep 11, 2016
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awsmome,

I can't say whether "he's right and everybody's wrong". All I know is that, when not setup correctly, Wilsons sound like nice, big speakers. Full, rich, some detail, etc.
But dial the drivers in to your exact listening position, and the magic happens. The analogy here is the focus of a camera. Everything "snaps" into place, instruments gain not only body but a clear, delimited "energy" around them. Depth (front to back resolution) also improves significantly. And the best of all, this is all very easily demonstrable and repeatable.
When I asked what made the WAMMs so superior to anything else he did, David said he was able to make the adjustments to the limit of human hearing. So with the WAMM, he's even able to take into factor in the propagation delay of the electronics into the individual settings, to truly "lock down" all the drivers into one coherent wave launch.
If you have a Wilson dealer near you, perhaps you could stop by and ask him to conduct a demo, then you go around the back and fiddle with the driver settings, and see how that impairs the sound...


cheers,
Alex

I don't have the technical knowledge to claim anything. Also I don't think there is one way to reach a peak.

What I know is when I adjusted my Alexias to my exact listening spot everything changed. Just as you wrote, before time alignment Alexias sound like very nice, big, dynamic speakers. When they are aligned they just disappear. So it is working for sure and you can all try it on your nearest dealer and hear it yourself.

But again, this may be just one way to do it. I also heard a lot of other speakers such as Magico M5 which has no time alignment and sounds very very good.

I know Alon objects time alignment and it's a fantasy but I would love to see Wilson turning a Magico M6 into a time aligned format. The cost will at least double or triple but still it's a nice fantasy.
 
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awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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it would wilsons are time coherent not aligned
if they use lr2 crossovers, then the drivers lobe directly out, so in such a large array they need to be "focused" on a point

this seems to be consistent with peoples experience

magico are also time coherent

vandersteen are time aligned

the chrono wilson i haven't seen measurements for ?
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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I am writing a big article on my factory tour to Provo for Part-Time Audiophile.

The WAMM demo was a life-changing experience. I've heard most of the most expensive speakers and the WAMMs reach a whole new level of realism and beauty.

One more brain washing? :) An acquaintance who listened to them is still trying to recover from it!

Looking ahead to read your article.
 

art vandelay

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Nov 1, 2017
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Isn't this problematic with respect to having to use ADC/DAC conversions when you go DSP? That two step creates signal loss.

If you use LP as your primary source, yes, but for all digital formats, no. That said, there are some very fine ADC's these days.

Not that there aren't issues with digital processing. I've heard a few active DEQX systems and none of them have ever sounded as natural as the best passive implementations.

However, that doesn't mean it will stay that way. It's a matter of when, not if. DSP crossovers will eventually reign supreme, and speakers will have effectively ruler flat frequency response, linear phase response, and very low distortion, thanks to DSP correction.
 

lordcloud

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Jul 5, 2016
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Round Rock, Texas
it would wilsons are time coherent not aligned
if they use lr2 crossovers, then the drivers lobe directly out, so in such a large array they need to be "focused" on a point

this seems to be consistent with peoples experience

magico are also time coherent

vandersteen are time aligned

the chrono wilson i haven't seen measurements for ?

I don't know how any speaker who's drivers do not move in unison, could be considered time coherent or aligned, as the signal doesn't leave the speaker coherently in time.

I've always taken issue with Wilson's claim of time coherency, when they use crossovers that aren't time coherent, and their drivers may or may not be wired in phase with one another.

It's difficult to say your speaker is time coherent when the tweeter is moving in while the midrange is moving out.

I'm no speaker designer, but this has always seemed odd to me on their part.
 

andromedaaudio

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Jan 23, 2011
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But the purists under the audiophiles can off course take 3 different Horn loudspeakers each for a part of the audioband wire them all directly to the amp output and listen to +- 5 db signal variation or even more.
You pick your flavour .
 

audioguy

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Apr 20, 2010
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II've always taken issue with Wilson's claim of time coherency, when they use crossovers that aren't time coherent, and their drivers may or may not be wired in phase with one another.

It's difficult to say your speaker is time coherent when the tweeter is moving in while the midrange is moving out.

I'm no speaker designer, but this has always seemed odd to me on their part.

I don't know about any of the Wilson current speakers, but one of the early versions of what was originally called the "Grand Slam" or some such name, had their tweeters wired out of phase on purpose. Easy to see when doing an impulse measurement. The tweeters are "out of phase" on my current speakers (Triad) but they sound terrific. This showed up when I used a polarity tester and checked the individual drivers.

But, if I've learned anything about this hobby, measurements, as important as they are, mean very little when it comes to some buyer's decisions. I had occasion to see the measurements (e.g. impulse, square wave, phase, FR) of some VERY well respected and very expensive speakers (including respected by me) and some of the measurements were just abysmal. I can't explain it but then, who can.
 

andromedaaudio

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Did you hear those +- 5 db designs at a show OR at your house.
Those coloured speakers tend to sound Nice (and different for sure) with certain songs , they mostly Will have a playlist at a show .
But..... Dont put different music on Them as you might be in for a surprise , and they Will annoy you pretty soon.
Can be cones to with those anomalies , i Just mentioned
An Example
 

infinitely baffled

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Jul 2, 2015
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But, if I've learned anything about this hobby, measurements, as important as they are, mean very little when it comes to some buyer's decisions. I had occasion to see the measurements (e.g. impulse, square wave, phase, FR) of some VERY well respected and very expensive speakers (including respected by me) and some of the measurements were just abysmal. I can't explain it but then, who can.

I think the answer is that we don't know how, or what to measure.
The only measurements i take notice of are low frequency response and efficiency
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
I think the answer is that we don't know how, or what to measure.
The only measurements i take notice of are low frequency response and efficiency

At least partially true. But we do know that impulse, square wave, phase, and frequency response measurements are meaningful. It is one thing to have an individual driver out of phase with the other drivers. But a REALLY crappy looking square wave, for example, or an individual driver that shows excessive ringing is NOT a good thing. Yet some speakers that demonstrate those specific very negative characteristics are still well thought of and are very popular.

And I believe some of it is attributed to listener preference. Regardless of how it measures, our preferences drive us in that direction.

Who knows? Certainly not me.
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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I don't know about any of the Wilson current speakers, but one of the early versions of what was originally called the "Grand Slam" or some such name, had their tweeters wired out of phase on purpose. Easy to see when doing an impulse measurement. The tweeters are "out of phase" on my current speakers (Triad) but they sound terrific. This showed up when I used a polarity tester and checked the individual drivers.

But, if I've learned anything about this hobby, measurements, as important as they are, mean very little when it comes to some buyer's decisions. I had occasion to see the measurements (e.g. impulse, square wave, phase, FR) of some VERY well respected and very expensive speakers (including respected by me) and some of the measurements were just abysmal. I can't explain it but then, who can.

Maybe talking at slight cross purposes
I think we all know some good ‘sounding’ Audio equipment doesn’t measure so well

But here we have a manufacturer claiming a certain accuracy in their engineering, and asking for a premium for that engineering
There is a difference between time coherence and time alignment, and drivers can be in reverse phase and time coherent,this has nothing to do about measuring badly, but not time aligned.
Very few speakers are time aligned.

What seems most probable is they use a type of crossover where the lobing of the drivers is directly out from the driver
As a result, to align the lobes, a certain focus point for the listener is required.
The wilsons I have seen are time coherent, I am yet to see one time aligned, but the latest being discussed here I have not seen measured, it could be?

Speakers being such large pieces of engineering are subject to engineering compromises, these compromises can often be mitigated to create an excellent sounding speaker like all good engineering

Because a speaker is the interface between the listener and the Hifi system, and is influenced by the room and the listening position , we need to be careful about what is meant by measuring badly?
Since some of the way we hear speakers is how they interact with a room, some engineering is involved to achieve an acceptable balance. A case in point is absolutism in measurement reporting of speakers, for instance flatline to 20khz at the listening position will seldom lead to a neutral balance speaker subjectively
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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Canberra Australia
I think the answer is that we don't know how, or what to measure.
The only measurements i take notice of are low frequency response and efficiency

I not sure that’s entirely true, there is a lot about the design of a speaker that is known, in terms of how it will be perceived from measurements
Because speakers are the interface between the system, the room and the listener, who do not hear in a linear fashion, there are engineering concerns which have to be addressed
The mitigation of these issues, and engineering accuracy versus how a speaker interacts with a room, and the listener is a balancing act.
Most serious loudspeaker designs are aware of this balancing act.
To consider they are not aware of the constraints, and areas where measurement absolutism versus perception are not know is to do them a disservice

The fact that most of the top speaker designer are using engineering precision to push the envelope of reproduction shows they have a good understanding of the issues.
They are not building endless prototypes but designing on CADs etc, virtual modelling and measuring and then refining in prototypes.
Speaker design at the highest levels is not a dark art, but there is always some art in the engineering design decisions that are made.
 

lordcloud

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2016
218
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Round Rock, Texas
Maybe talking at slight cross purposes
I think we all know some good ‘sounding’ Audio equipment doesn’t measure so well

But here we have a manufacturer claiming a certain accuracy in their engineering, and asking for a premium for that engineering
There is a difference between time coherence and time alignment, and drivers can be in reverse phase and time coherent,this has nothing to do about measuring badly, but not time aligned.
Very few speakers are time aligned.

What seems most probable is they use a type of crossover where the lobing of the drivers is directly out from the driver
As a result, to align the lobes, a certain focus point for the listener is required.
The wilsons I have seen are time coherent, I am yet to see one time aligned, but the latest being discussed here I have not seen measured, it could be?

Speakers being such large pieces of engineering are subject to engineering compromises, these compromises can often be mitigated to create an excellent sounding speaker like all good engineering

Because a speaker is the interface between the listener and the Hifi system, and is influenced by the room and the listening position , we need to be careful about what is meant by measuring badly?
Since some of the way we hear speakers is how they interact with a room, some engineering is involved to achieve an acceptable balance. A case in point is absolutism in measurement reporting of speakers, for instance flatline to 20khz at the listening position will seldom lead to a neutral balance speaker subjectively

I'm not sure how a speaker can be considered time coherent, if the signal leaving the speaker, is disjointed in time.

Many speakers are wired so that the sound from the tweeter hits your ear first. A time coherent speaker would have the sound from the tweeter hit your ear at the same time as the other drivers. Or at least be designed to make the attempt.

Time alignment of the drivers is one of the ways you obtain time coherency, along with first order crossovers. At least as the signal leaves the speaker. Wilson, as far as I know, doesn't use crossover topology that would allow their speakers to be time coherent. Their drivers don't move in unison.
 

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