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Thread: Have you heard the new WAMM? Any good?

  1. #101
    Addicted to Best! Lee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by art vandelay View Post
    Wilson's use of second order electrical makes it impossible to achieve time alignment in the strictest sense - because the mid driver needs to be phase flipped to provide 'phase' alignment with the woofers and tweeter. That said, the level of phase alignment / coherence achieved is vastly better than average, because the drive units are (or can be) precisely positioned in space for a given listening height and distance. And this matters lots because the small amount of harmonic distortion energy from any individual drive unit is time and phase aligned relative to the other drive units when the speaker is correctly set up. I wonder if this is why Wilson speakers sound so coherent and can also convey a level of realism that many other otherwise fine speakers are not quite able to match? Achieving a flat phase response is obviously preferable - but this is something that's now quite easy to achieve externally with DSP correction. Sure, speakers can be made to work with first order filters, but the amount of driver overlap makes for a very messy vertical polar response which in a typical reflective room can render the benefits next to useless, or at best isolated to a very small listening area. There's also the issue of the phase response of the drive units themselves which becomes more problematic, and usually necessitating the addition of correction networks in the crossover. I don't think it's surprising that many speakers that claim to be time and phase perfect end up sounding less than perfect in most respects.
    Isn't this problematic with respect to having to use ADC/DAC conversions when you go DSP? That two step creates signal loss.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by asiufy View Post
    awsmome,

    I can't say whether "he's right and everybody's wrong". All I know is that, when not setup correctly, Wilsons sound like nice, big speakers. Full, rich, some detail, etc.
    But dial the drivers in to your exact listening position, and the magic happens. The analogy here is the focus of a camera. Everything "snaps" into place, instruments gain not only body but a clear, delimited "energy" around them. Depth (front to back resolution) also improves significantly. And the best of all, this is all very easily demonstrable and repeatable.
    When I asked what made the WAMMs so superior to anything else he did, David said he was able to make the adjustments to the limit of human hearing. So with the WAMM, he's even able to take into factor in the propagation delay of the electronics into the individual settings, to truly "lock down" all the drivers into one coherent wave launch.
    If you have a Wilson dealer near you, perhaps you could stop by and ask him to conduct a demo, then you go around the back and fiddle with the driver settings, and see how that impairs the sound...


    cheers,
    Alex
    I don't have the technical knowledge to claim anything. Also I don't think there is one way to reach a peak.

    What I know is when I adjusted my Alexias to my exact listening spot everything changed. Just as you wrote, before time alignment Alexias sound like very nice, big, dynamic speakers. When they are aligned they just disappear. So it is working for sure and you can all try it on your nearest dealer and hear it yourself.

    But again, this may be just one way to do it. I also heard a lot of other speakers such as Magico M5 which has no time alignment and sounds very very good.

    I know Alon objects time alignment and it's a fantasy but I would love to see Wilson turning a Magico M6 into a time aligned format. The cost will at least double or triple but still it's a nice fantasy.
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  3. #103
    Addicted to Best! awsmone's Avatar
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    it would wilsons are time coherent not aligned
    if they use lr2 crossovers, then the drivers lobe directly out, so in such a large array they need to be "focused" on a point

    this seems to be consistent with peoples experience

    magico are also time coherent

    vandersteen are time aligned

    the chrono wilson i haven't seen measurements for ?
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  4. #104
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] microstrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I am writing a big article on my factory tour to Provo for Part-Time Audiophile.

    The WAMM demo was a life-changing experience. I've heard most of the most expensive speakers and the WAMMs reach a whole new level of realism and beauty.
    One more brain washing? An acquaintance who listened to them is still trying to recover from it!

    Looking ahead to read your article.
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Isn't this problematic with respect to having to use ADC/DAC conversions when you go DSP? That two step creates signal loss.
    If you use LP as your primary source, yes, but for all digital formats, no. That said, there are some very fine ADC's these days.

    Not that there aren't issues with digital processing. I've heard a few active DEQX systems and none of them have ever sounded as natural as the best passive implementations.

    However, that doesn't mean it will stay that way. It's a matter of when, not if. DSP crossovers will eventually reign supreme, and speakers will have effectively ruler flat frequency response, linear phase response, and very low distortion, thanks to DSP correction.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by awsmone View Post
    it would wilsons are time coherent not aligned
    if they use lr2 crossovers, then the drivers lobe directly out, so in such a large array they need to be "focused" on a point

    this seems to be consistent with peoples experience

    magico are also time coherent

    vandersteen are time aligned

    the chrono wilson i haven't seen measurements for ?
    I don't know how any speaker who's drivers do not move in unison, could be considered time coherent or aligned, as the signal doesn't leave the speaker coherently in time.

    I've always taken issue with Wilson's claim of time coherency, when they use crossovers that aren't time coherent, and their drivers may or may not be wired in phase with one another.

    It's difficult to say your speaker is time coherent when the tweeter is moving in while the midrange is moving out.

    I'm no speaker designer, but this has always seemed odd to me on their part.

  7. #107
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] andromedaaudio's Avatar
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    Drivers can be wired out of phase to compensate for phase shift in x overs.

    https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tex...itor-circuits/

  8. #108
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] andromedaaudio's Avatar
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    But the purists under the audiophiles can off course take 3 different Horn loudspeakers each for a part of the audioband wire them all directly to the amp output and listen to +- 5 db signal variation or even more.
    You pick your flavour .

  9. #109
    [WBF Founding Member] audioguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordcloud View Post
    II've always taken issue with Wilson's claim of time coherency, when they use crossovers that aren't time coherent, and their drivers may or may not be wired in phase with one another.

    It's difficult to say your speaker is time coherent when the tweeter is moving in while the midrange is moving out.

    I'm no speaker designer, but this has always seemed odd to me on their part.
    I don't know about any of the Wilson current speakers, but one of the early versions of what was originally called the "Grand Slam" or some such name, had their tweeters wired out of phase on purpose. Easy to see when doing an impulse measurement. The tweeters are "out of phase" on my current speakers (Triad) but they sound terrific. This showed up when I used a polarity tester and checked the individual drivers.

    But, if I've learned anything about this hobby, measurements, as important as they are, mean very little when it comes to some buyer's decisions. I had occasion to see the measurements (e.g. impulse, square wave, phase, FR) of some VERY well respected and very expensive speakers (including respected by me) and some of the measurements were just abysmal. I can't explain it but then, who can.
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  10. #110
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] andromedaaudio's Avatar
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    Did you hear those +- 5 db designs at a show OR at your house.
    Those coloured speakers tend to sound Nice (and different for sure) with certain songs , they mostly Will have a playlist at a show .
    But..... Dont put different music on Them as you might be in for a surprise , and they Will annoy you pretty soon.
    Can be cones to with those anomalies , i Just mentioned
    An Example

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