Interesting Perspective on Our Hobby

morricab said:

Regardless, the audible confusion is clear to hear with inferior systems, which indicates that it is messing up (i.e. distorting) these voltage transitions either before it gets to the driver or at the driver. At any given instant in time there can be only one input voltage the question is the speed of transitions required to "get it all". I suspect a lot of amps get into slewing issues and therefore distort and screw up phase relationships even before it gets to the speaker. Then there is the harmonic and IMD distortion that is going to multiply exponentially. Just going from one to two tones creates a wealth of problems for a lot of electronics then keep piling it on and you create a sonic "muck" that is fluctuating with the signal and masking information. The white paper from Nelson Pass talks about the IMD issue and the concentration of distortion.

I would argue that probably no commercially available speaker can truly do full orchestra but that also the electronics are failing to deliver just as often and probably more so when the speaker is capable of say a string quartet.

I think the ability to retain some individuality of instruments within the greater sense of orchestra (recording permitting) while capturing both micro and macro dynamics is more difficult than a lot of smaller scale material. However, most systems CANNOT even capture a single instrument with reasonable accuracy, either micro or macro. I think though that a system that gets closer to right on the large scale material (which has both micro and macro swings) will probably be able to handle the smaller scale stuff more realistically as well. It is not like it will get LESS resolving when there are fewer instruments and most experience suggests that it will get more so.

I do agree though that to judge a system a wide range of music should be used as confirmatory experience since we are far from a mathematical theory here where we can definitively predict the outcome...so why not play some stuff and find out?? To deliberately restrict yourself to Mahler is just silly, IMO because it might be that it does that brilliantly but it might not do Kraftwerk or Chick Corea all that well...it should but if you are not listening to the whole picture you might like only a certain aspect of the sound that favors tone over resolution, for example and leads you to a biased result.

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Hi Morricab,

I agree with everything you're saying.

The last paragraph I've bolded was what I was attempting to say, so thank you for saying it better than I obviously did.

Be well,

853guy

853guy said:

Is the acoustic tonality of a large scale symphonic work any more of a test for a system than the micro-dynamic shadings and rhythmic agility of a bandwidth-limited piccolo flute or countertenor? Given the number of speakers that fail the latter test, I’m not sure large symphonic works by themselves have any intrinsic value in the evaluation of a system, except to reinforce the musical sensibilities of the the subject.

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Actually, in hindsight, perhaps I should have included an addendum in the form of: "Surely, it's both and".

Apologies to any who were offended, mildly inconvenienced and/or did not care.

853guy

Guys, I've had a bit of a lightbulb moment
My GF says it's a bit early in the day, and I've used my allowance up
But hey, I can't make any excuses for sheer genius

It's been alluded to in this thread, incl by me, that audio is a geek hobby, bereft of that sexiness inherent in more flashy visual media savvy hobbys like cars, jewellery etc
And that part of our problem as a group enjoying the hobby is that there's too much snobby navel gazing
I'm sure we all from time to time appear a bit sheepish about our collective and individual enthusiasm for what's inherent in our hobby
Even this thread can be said to have gone down a bit of a philisophical rabbit hole (yet ANOTHER wbf topic gone OT(T))
But actually I think this is a bit of a joy in our hobby, that it attracts so many interesting deeper opinions in what the hobby means just beyond being in the moment, what that moment is, how good that moment can be, how many moments there are, how different the same moment is to different people, how significant that moment is, how many ways one can get to the moment, is it the moment or the journey to the moment that matters, is that moment worth the money we spend on trying to achieve it, and does anyone outside our passion even care about the moment as they rush about their lives putting the moment about 99th on their list of priorities (us ranking the moment in top 5)
And so as this thread spins off into lots of varied call and response, and people outside the hobby just won't get it, I'm proud that audio attracts such deep and varied opinions, and we're really thinking in so many ways as to how we achieve being in the moment, and many ways in succeeding (or not of course)
If this was a wristwatches forum, or one on handbags, I can't imagine even 1% of this interesting discourse if there were threads re people in those hobbies discussing love of their passions
If the future of high end audio and the best reproduction of music at home is the preserve of the geeky, then I say " long live the geeks!"
That's my love letter to you guys and the hobby done
Don't ask me for another

Spirit, that's very nice of you. Of course, if hifi shows are anything to go by the hobby is populated by overweight men with questionable hygiene and poor social skills, so there's that.

(I just wanted to redress the balance there!)

I'll drop WBF once Smell-O-Posting is perfected

Hifi is between politics and sport. People discussing sport actually bond more easily while discussing differences – they throw stats at each other about their favorite play/team, discuss subjective performances, and become great friends. Differences in politics can be quite divisive. Intuitively I would expect Hifi to be more like sport, but it ends up a bit like politics at times. Instead of a comparison with a watches hobby, I would compare it to sports and political interests – why do some people debate endlessly on current issues in facebook, over and over and over? Why does a cricket fan spend 5 days following a match? Non-cricket lovers find that weird. Similarly, why do hifi hobbyists spend hours thinking about, listening, googling, foruming on hifi? Non-hifi lovers find that weird.

Really Ked, you've got to be kidding? Right?
Just check Arsenal Mania or Red Cafe, or any team forum board for vitriolic comments that would make Amir and Steve W's disagreements look like kids stuff
And as to swapping national team allegiances depending on what players you prefer in a current Test team, you'd be laughed out of the room in any passionate discussion
No you're safe here, where your unfashionable and geeky views are tolerated along w mine

Every non audiophile that has heard my system "gets it".
The moment they walk into my room , they get the room , the speakers , the decor , the sound of the room without music...and then I play the music ..not the audiophile stuff but the everyman in the street stuff...stuff ppl know .. old standards and I watch their jaws drop...
Oh my god , crystal clear , the bass the bass!! , music will never be the same for me , play some more , have you got.. are the comments I get.
You can see it afterwards that they "got it"...
The problem for most is that , albeit they love music , they wouldnt spring for the system..they dont love music *THAT* much...

Rodney Gold said:

Every non audiophile that has heard my system "gets it".
The moment they walk into my room , they get the room , the speakers , the decor , the sound of the room without music...and then I play the music ..not the audiophile stuff but the everyman in the street stuff...stuff ppl know .. old standards and I watch their jaws drop...
Oh my god , crystal clear , the bass the bass!! , music will never be the same for me , play some more , have you got.. are the comments I get.
You can see it afterwards that they "got it"...
The problem for most is that , albeit they love music , they wouldnt spring for the system..they dont love music *THAT* much...

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Don't you love it when some of them actually tear up? Makes goosebumps trivial. I have yet to make a man cry but I have counted 3 women. Impromptu dancing is another favorite of mine.

My best friend's GF, generally pokes me in the ribs re my hobby
Too solitary, too pricey, too un family friendly
I pop a bit of Elvis (!) on worn vinyl, in my new neutral and expressive space, and she's going "wow, the voice is coming from nowhere, he's in the room" and was truly impressed
Of course Elvis then left the building as I lifted the arm
She said she really got the hobby finally
But could never be for her w the hours she works and the chaos of 6 and 9 yr old boys stomping around at home

spiritofmusic said:

My best friend's GF, generally pokes me in the ribs re my hobby
Too solitary, too pricey, too un family friendly
I pop a bit of Elvis (!) on worn vinyl, in my new neutral and expressive space, and she's going "wow, the voice is coming from nowhere, he's in the room" and was truly impressed
Of course Elvis then left the building as I lifted the arm
She said she really got the hobby finally
But could never be for her w the hours she works and the chaos of 6 and 9 yr old boys stomping around at home

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Marc, too bad you subjected her to a double blind listening test. If she had used her eyes she may have had an Elvis "sighting". Next time play for her the theme from Star War or the soundtrack from Jaws. Seriously, moments like that with non audio friends are great fun. Share the passion should be our collective mantra.

Oh I do Peter
And despite me hyping up the skeptical attitudes of the skeptics, you know what? Most of them keep asking me to play more and more music
Metallica One, Holst Planets Mars, Zep 111 Tangerine (Jap vinyl), Bolero, Depeche Mode Your Personal Jesus, Bach Brandenberg, Scheherazade final mvt, keeps 'em asking for more
But v rarely are they inspired to even think of listening other than on I Pod or in-van mp3

bonzo75 said:

I have flown to Zurich (Operahaus) and Concertgebouw (twice), but not Vienna. Would love to one day. But from London, my favorites so far are Sheldonian in Oxford, and the Bridgewater Hall in Manchester (where I have been only once, maybe had a lucky concert).

But I agree, audio is not to impress others, except maybe other audiophiles for some, but for many it is primarily a geeky hobby. The "what would happen if I did this instead of this" gets the better of everyone

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I went to the Concertgebouw in late March. Also extraordinary, but I think the Musikverein is better. For one accustomed to the sound of conventional orchestras, it can be fun to hear the unique Viennese sound.

soundArgument said:

I went to the Concertgebouw in late March. Also extraordinary, but I think the Musikverein is better. For one accustomed to the sound of conventional orchestras, it can be fun to hear the unique Viennese sound.

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Try Sheldonian in Oxford, it's unique. If you are here end of May go for the emperor. I am away unfortunately.

Kessler Responds

* I've read a few of Kessler's columns over the years. If I were to judge by the records that I have seen him mention, I would guess that he does not have a very serious interest in music.[/QUOTE]

Interesting to know that I'm not serious about music: I have no idea who soundArgument is, but I doubt he or she has ever been to my home and studied my record library. One should never make "guesses" without a clue. And as for what constitutes being serious about music, the quality, seriousness or calibre of devotion is not genre-dependent, something classical and jazz lovers refuse to allow of other genres.

As for wristwatches, soundArgument's reaction to those who are collectors or connoisseurs of fine timepieces is IDENTICAL to the dismissive behaviour of those who don't "get" high-end audio. There are snobs in every field, but the watch enthusiasts I know are not about impressing each other and are as genuine in their love for and knowledge of the subject as any audiophiles. I don't care what anyone's hobby/passion is if they love it, and would never disrespect it just because it isn't shared by me. Fly-fishing, mountaineering, making jam, collecting beer mats: do your thing. If others had that equanimity about high-end, specialty or purist audio - call it what you will - then audiophiles wouldn't be regarded as misfits.