Who's buying the UpTone Audio ISO REGEN?

pkane · May 29, 2017

Elberoth said:
Amir - I thought you can do better. It was all supposed to be so easy for you. Measurements and stuff. I was really hoping you can put your money, where your mouth is. But it seems the king is naked.

Forgive me, but why did a simple request to the manufacturer to publish some (IMO, appropriate) measurements result in this avalanche of accusations and mud slinging?

Amir asked for a set of measurements. I couldn't care less what his real or apparent intentions or biases are. I would like to see these measurements for myself.

Whether or not you believe in any measurements at all or in these particular ones is completely irrelevant to me. As a consumer I would like to see them to form a more complete view of a piece of equipment. And yes, I have multiple engineering degrees, so I am capable of forming my own opinion, I don't need you deciding for me.

I'm seriously considering ISO Regen, but would like to see measurements other than just the single USB eye pattern from an unknown to me USB device (I don't have a Lenovo Thinkcentre). Is this really such a travesty to ask for this?

opus112 · May 29, 2017

pkane said:
Whether or not you believe in any measurements at all or in these particular ones is completely irrelevant to me. As a consumer I would like to see them to form a more complete view of a piece of equipment. And yes, I have multiple engineering degrees, so I am capable of forming my own opinion, I don't need you deciding for me.

Which particular measurements do you deem relevant, and why? Feel entirely free to use EE technical terminology.

jkeny · May 29, 2017

pkane said:
Forgive me, but why did a simple request to the manufacturer to publish some (IMO, appropriate) measurements result in this avalanche of accusations and mud slinging?

Amir asked for a set of measurements. I couldn't care less what his real or apparent intentions or biases are. I would like to see these measurements for myself.

Whether or not you believe in any measurements at all or in these particular ones is completely irrelevant to me. As a consumer I would like to see them to form a more complete view of a piece of equipment. And yes, I have multiple engineering degrees, so I am capable of forming my own opinion, I don't need you deciding for me.

I'm seriously considering ISO Regen, but would like to see measurements other than just the single USB eye pattern from an unknown to me USB device (I don't have a Lenovo Thinkcentre). Is this really such a travesty to ask for this?

What is the goal of these USB isolator/reformatting devices? To improve the signal integrity of the USB signal. What does the eye pattern show? An improved SI of the USB signal. Goal achieved

Does this result in audible improvements? Only listening will determine this in your own system.

With your multiple engineering degrees you should be able to state what set of measurements will "form a more complete view of a piece of equipment" & what will you be looking for on these measurements?

Ah, I see Opus already asked. No running away now when a technical question is asked - there's too much of that on this thread

pkane · May 29, 2017

Jitter spectrum at the output of the DAC.

pkane · May 29, 2017

jkeny said:
What is the goal of these USB isolator/reformatting devices? To improve the signal integrity of the USB signal. What does the eye pattern show? An improved SI of the USB signal. Goal achieved

Well, no. The claim on Uptone website is that ISO Regen will deliver "dramatic musical benefits". I don't see that in an improved eye pattern. Do you?

opus112 · May 29, 2017

pkane said:
Jitter spectrum at the output of the DAC.

Did you miss the part where I included '...and why?'?. If so, consider yourself reminded.

opus112 · May 29, 2017

pkane said:
The claim on Uptone website is that ISO Regen will deliver "dramatic musical benefits". I don't see that in an improved eye pattern. Do you?

Do you see it in a jitter spectrum?

pkane · May 29, 2017

opus112 said:
Did you miss the part where I included '...and why?'?. If so, consider yourself reminded.

And this is where I'll remind you that I'm not here to hear your opinion of which measurement is important to you. This one is important to me, and I expect, to at least one or two other individuals.

pkane said:
Whether or not you believe in any measurements at all or in these particular ones is completely irrelevant to me.

opus112 · May 29, 2017

pkane said:
And this is where I'll remind you that I'm not here to hear your opinion of which measurement is important to you.

Fun, fun fun

You can't remind someone when you've not previously informed them.

I'm not interested in offering my opinion either so we're both on the same page.

If the important measurement really is important to you then you could figure out ways to persuade others to make that measurement. Which to be persuasive you'd need to have a good story for why its important not just making claims that it is. Or have you never learned persuasion skills?

pkane · May 29, 2017

opus112 said:
Fun, fun fun You can't remind someone when you've not previously informed them.

Ah, but I did. You just didn't read it.

opus112 said:
I'm not interested in offering my opinion either so we're both on the same page.

If the important measurement really is important to you then you could figure out ways to persuade others to make that measurement. Which to be persuasive you'd need to have a good story for why its important not just making claims that it is. Or have you never learned persuasion skills?

I don't need to convince anyone but Uptone Audio. And I have a simple way to do it. It's called money, and it can be very persuasive.

opus112 · May 29, 2017

pkane said:
Ah, but I did. You just didn't read it.

Perhaps I read and forgot. Link please?

<later> Ah I see I did miss the connection between the generic 'you' and the 'you' addressed personally to me. My mistake. So then why make that 'reminder' when I wasn't engaging in the behaviour you'd specifically strongly discouraged? Looks to me like a complete distraction. Not to mention the irony of you attempting to dissuade others from introducing irrelevancies whilst doing the precise same thing yourself.

I don't need to convince anyone but Uptone Audio. And I have a simple way to do it. It's called money, and it can be very persuasive.

Why are you wasting time here then if you've already figured out bribery is going to get what you want?

jkeny · May 30, 2017

It's interesting how lacking in logic some people are - they want to see a measurement, that they can't justify but they have money so they're entitled - hehe, you've got to laugh in the face of such stupid capitalism logic.

Legolas · May 30, 2017

jkeny said:
It's interesting how lacking in logic some people are - they want to see a measurement, that they can't justify but they have money so they're entitled - hehe, you've got to laugh in the face of such stupid capitalism logic.

Pity, there were some more fiery posts but they seem to have been moderated...

BUT this is getting silly, though I must admit middy entertaining. I think all this comes down to the flawed data transfer protocol of PC audio via USB. Packet noise, RF noise. PC's send a ton of garbage down USB connection as we know, that is not disputed. How it gets in that connection and then arrives at the other end in a highly sensitive DAC circuit is not a surprise to anyone here. So what are we arguing about? The fact this happens, or the ways to avoid it and that the Uptone Audio Regen doesn't do that? It seems to me we are arguing it should be measurable (this RF noise or some form of extra noise). Possibly, but that is the same as trying to measure a better mains cable or interconnect cable, i.e very difficult. The data stream from a PC is analogue as in a stream of voltage. It is not bits are bits. That voltage will get affected by noise, and that noise will affect the DAC trying to convert the ones and zeros at the other end.

There are a lot of USB fixers, reclockers and convertors on the market. I have tried many of them, and they all seemed to have a level of positive effect, some minor, others a lot. I have since moved on to Ethernet which in my system kills USB. For the price of these USB fixers and LPS supplies, you can avoid USB altogether, and maybe the arguments as to if they work (or if there is a measurable graph to show they work, or not). I note Vincent of TotalDAC used AES connection in his recent big system demo's. TBH I can't see any reason to use USB straight through anymore due to it's known issues. Is it the customer wanting to upsample the data beyond 192K? Or convert PCM to DSD? Unless you really need to do that, send the data as is, let the DAC do it's thing. I note Rob Watts says as much on the DAVE. YMMV.

opus112 · May 30, 2017

USB is differential digital signalling, Ethernet is similar so apart from the inherent isolation built in to Ethernet I can't figure out why USB=bad, Ethernet=good. Could it just be that Ethernet's flavour of the month?

<edit> Thinking a little more about this, perhaps people using Ethernet aren't connecting their PC directly to their Ethernet-input DAC, rather going a more circuitous route, via a router. In which case there could be a whole line of isolation transformers providing insulation from PC-borne nasties.

Legolas · May 30, 2017

opus112 said:
USB is differential digital signalling, Ethernet is similar so apart from the inherent isolation built in to Ethernet I can't figure out why USB=bad, Ethernet=good. Could it just be that Ethernet's flavour of the month?

<edit> Thinking a little more about this, perhaps people using Ethernet aren't connecting their PC directly to their Ethernet-input DAC, rather going a more circuitous route, via a router. In which case there could be a whole line of isolation transformers providing insulation from PC-borne nasties.

Yes, and the fact also that USB carries a 5V feed for charging / powering devices that is widely unregulated and noisy. There is also the protocol of transfer that is different. I use Dante which is designed for pro audio. USB was never designed for audiophile audio, rather a cheap all in one connection to simple external devices that where non powered.

pkane · May 30, 2017

opus112 said:
Why are you wasting time here then if you've already figured out bribery is going to get what you want?

Very simple. Asking the vendor for measurements, hoping that the original request Amir made does not get completely drowned out by noise.

opus112 · May 30, 2017

As far as I'm aware Uptone isn't making DACs, so whose DAC should they use to fulfill your request?

pkane · May 30, 2017

astrostar59 said:
I think all this comes down to the flawed data transfer protocol of PC audio via USB. Packet noise, RF noise. PC's send a ton of garbage down USB connection as we know, that is not disputed. How it gets in that connection and then arrives at the other end in a highly sensitive DAC circuit is not a surprise to anyone here.

Yes, that's the problem. How does the induced noise, leakage currents, signal filtering by the digital cables and connectors, etc., manifest itself at the analog output? I have a good galvanic isolation between PC and DAC, and I know the bits are not being mangled by the transmission. Then what is that one thing, one effect on the output of my system that ISO Regen (a digital device) can possibly produce that, as claimed, will make "the music sound better"? Answer that and you'll understand why I'm asking for this particular measurement.

pkane · May 30, 2017

opus112 said:
As far as I'm aware Uptone isn't making DACs, so whose DAC should they use to fulfill your request?

I assume Uptone Audio has access to DACs and can run tests with and without ISO Regen in the circuit. A test with a few common DACs would be nice, but even one would be better than none.

jkeny · May 30, 2017

pkane said:
Yes, that's the problem. How does the induced noise, leakage currents, signal filtering by the digital cables and connectors, etc., manifest itself at the analog output? I have a good galvanic isolation between PC and DAC, and I know the bits are not being mangled by the transmission. Then what is that one thing, one effect on the output of my system that ISO Regen (a digital device) can possibly produce that, as claimed, will make "the music will sound better"? Answer that and you'll understand why I'm asking for this particular measurement.

What galvanic isolation do you have between PC & DAC - what is your configuration?

Have you asked Uptone your questions directly? They have a strong presence on ComputerAudiophile forum & specifc threads about the ISO Regen & you are a member there! So why come here with your questions?

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