Who's buying the UpTone Audio ISO REGEN?

Believe High Fidelity · May 26, 2017

jkeny said:
Your protestations now just don't square with what you posted before so I query which is your actual conviction
"If I were looking to understand its impact and look to science to spell it out for me over my own ears, than I would want to know how it improves the SQ at the output of the DAC and not just know that it did "something" prior to the DAC output if the end result is the same measurement at the DAC output"
You see the phrases "understand its impact" "look to science to spell it out for me" clearly state sthat you believe science (by which I think yo mean measurements) is going to tell you what audible impact this will have. You further emphasise this by "I would want to know how it improves the SQ at the output of the DAC" again you are stating that the measurements defines the improvement in SQ (sound quality) & again you are putting your belief in these measurements & that they will tell you when something hasn't changed the SQ "and not just know that it did "something" prior to the DAC output if the end result is the same measurement at the DAC output"

Guess you missed that part IF, and currently I am not...

jkeny said:
or this position
"I appreciate measurements for what they aim to accomplish and in a number of important aspects are very helpful to identify some performance aspects of audio quality without question."

I'm wondering what set of measurements you look to & what you feel they tell you about SQ as you seemed to suggest that you would turn to them ""If I were looking to understand its impact and look to science to spell it out for me over my own ears"?

Again IF, but to give you an example as mentioned Jitter would be one of them. This market spends much less time with science than opinion so I always indulge science when I feel it is applicable. But like most things, even science can be used and manipulated to make a product look great or innovative on paper...

jkeny said:
The topic is about the measurements produced so "back on topic" is off-topic

The topic is about "who is buying this" and the OP suggested the desire for seeing measurements. I am not buying this, but I am following the regen type products being introduced so I chimed in when measurements were posted.

jkeny · May 26, 2017

amirm said:
The measurements produced do not in any way or shape correlate with how an audio system sounds. I pointed this out and asked for measurements that might, i.e. the output of the DAC.

And I stated that this is not what we hear - it's the output from the speakers/headphones that we hear - so when you produce measurements of two DACs that are audibly different & show the consistent differences in the measurements of what we hear, the output from headphones or speakers - then you may have some credibility in asking others for the same measurements. Up until you do that you are transparently just playing an agenda driven game. Soe are taken in by it, as it appears BHF is but there are many who see it for what it is.

I don't pretend to be anything much less the consumer champion you so readily paint yourself as.

jkeny · May 26, 2017

Believe High Fidelity said:
Guess you missed that part IF, and currently I am not...

The IF makes not a jot of difference and "you currently are" looking for a different set of measurements downstream of the USB isolation device because you suggest you would "looking to understand its impact and look to science to spell it out for me over my own ears" so you are suggesting that science can trump your ears - what measurements do you suggest will show the sound quality of this device?

Again IF, but to give you an example as mentioned Jitter would be one of them. This market spends much less time with science than opinion so I always indulge science when I feel it is applicable. But like most things, even science can be used and manipulated to make a product look great or innovative on paper...

Again you are equating science to measurements - they are not the same thing. Measurements can certainly be used to make a product look like sh1t - just look at Amir's measurements of two Schiit products for examples. His measurements of the original Regen was a fiasco in incompetence even a trainee technician would be embarrassed presenting much less publishing on a public forum on the the internet. His many technical gaffs are mounting evidence of his bias negates his pretensions to scientific credibility.

Legolas · May 27, 2017

jkeny said:
The IF makes not a jot of difference and "you currently are" looking for a different set of measurements downstream of the USB isolation device because you suggest you would "looking to understand its impact and look to science to spell it out for me over my own ears" so you are suggesting that science can trump your ears - what measurements do you suggest will show the sound quality of this device?

Again you are equating science to measurements - they are not the same thing. Measurements can certainly be used to make a product look like sh1t - just look at Amir's measurements of two Schiit products for examples. His measurements of the original Regen was a fiasco in incompetence even a trainee technician would be embarrassed presenting much less publishing on a public forum on the the internet. His many technical gaffs are mounting evidence of his bias negates his pretensions to scientific credibility.

Can I ask jkeny, have you heard this device? Or are we just in the science / theory battle again? I respect any technical knowledge by posters, but I wake up when I see they have heard the device they are talking (passionately) about.

Elberoth · May 27, 2017

amirm said:
The measurements produced do not in any way or shape correlate with how an audio system sounds. I pointed this out and asked for measurements that might, i.e. the output of the DAC.

Your position that we are not entitled to it is non sequitur. Let's have the data and then we can decide what it means. Are you some kind of industry spokesman aiming to tell consumers what information they should or should not have?

Amir & all Regen sceptics.

Please provide me measurements that will show differencies in power cords or IC used.

IMO you should acknowledge the fact that we still can't / don't know how to measure many things in audio.

jkeny · May 27, 2017

astrostar59 said:
Can I ask jkeny, have you heard this device? Or are we just in the science / theory battle again? I respect any technical knowledge by posters, but I wake up when I see they have heard the device they are talking (passionately) about.

I have heard the same technology that is used in the ISO Regen - Silanna USB high speed isolator chip & Genesys USB hub chip together with ultra stable & ultra low noise power - all this is used in my own device.

I can tell you that this is very audible improvement in any system I have tried it. And this BS trotted out by Amir is typical of armchair engineers who have never built a thing in their lives & had it tested in the market

Amir has a history of using simplistic measurements (usually flawed) of devices which he then uses to deny the device does anything. When differences are shown between signal input & signal output to the device he dismisses this & claims he wants measurements of what we hear - which is just a ruse. It may fool some people wit it's simplistic soundbite appeal ?

I'm challenging him to show two sets of measurements of what we hear (output from speakers or headphones) of two DACs that are audibly different & show how they determine the audible differences.

amirm · May 27, 2017

Elberoth said:
Amir & all Regen sceptics.

Please provide me measurements that will show differencies in power cords or IC used.

IMO you should acknowledge the fact that we still can't / don't know how to measure many things in audio.

Oh, we absolutely can have measurements that show differences that are heard. What we can't do is to create measurements for what is perceived by a listener using all of their senses. That involves measuring imagination which is a hard thing to do.

Regardless, there should be no fear of presenting data. It will speak for itself. It can for example show a device to be faulty. It can show how it is designed. In this case for example it can show if USB measurements are of any value if they do or do not correlate with the output of the DAC. If they do not, then we can dismiss the USB measurements as misleading marketing material.

amirm · May 27, 2017

jkeny said:
I have heard the same technology that is used in the ISO Regen - Silanna USB high speed isolator chip & Genesys USB hub chip together with ultra stable & ultra low noise power - all this is used in my own device.

There is the strong sales motive clouding all of these arguments.

That aside, measurements will give us insight as to whether your device performs the same, worse or better job than ISO Regen. Do you want to send me yours to measure?

amirm · May 27, 2017

jkeny said:
Amir has a history of using simplistic measurements (usually flawed) of devices which he then uses to deny the device does anything. When differences are shown between signal input & signal output to the device he dismisses this & claims he wants measurements of what we hear - which is just a ruse. It may fool some people wit it's simplistic soundbite appeal ?

I only make measurements because manufacturers refuse to do so and their customers want them. It costs me money to buy these devices and time and energy to make measurements and post them. So by all means, go ahead and make your own measurements if you think you can do a better job. But if you don't, know that I will be if there are user requests. And there are user requests for this device.

As for "claims" that is what the people wanting measurements don't want to hear. Anyone can claim any audible difference. We can't verify that. What we can verify and duplicate are measurements. On that note, no manufacturer has yet produced their own measurements to counter mine. They spend pages and pages protesting but they either don't know, are not capable of, or willing to make their own measurements.

microstrip · May 27, 2017

Elberoth said:
Amir & all Regen sceptics.

Please provide me measurements that will show differencies in power cords or IC used.

IMO you should acknowledge the fact that we still can't / don't know how to measure many things in audio.

Some people with open minds explained clearly how thinks work in audio:

"Finally I stopped measuring and started listening, and I realized that
the capacitor did have a fundamental flaw. This is where the ear has it all
over test equipment. The test equipment is almost always brought on line
to actually measure problems the ear hears. So we’re always working in
reverse. If we do hear something and we can’t measure it then we try to
find ways to measure what we hear. In the end we invariably find a
measurement that matches what the ear hears and it becomes very
obvious to everybody." (From a John Curl interview)
www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf

Some people try to find new measurements when faced with sound differences. Others find much more comfortable just denying the sound differences than working hard ... It is an unsolvable divergence.

And yes, some manufacturers have developed specific measurements that correlate with sound in amplifiers, power cables and cables, but they are proprietary.

amirm · May 27, 2017

jkeny said:
And I stated that this is not what we hear - it's the output from the speakers/headphones that we hear - so when you produce measurements of two DACs that are audibly different & show the consistent differences in the measurements of what we hear, the output from headphones or speakers - then you may have some credibility in asking others for the same measurements.

It is trivial to show audible differences between DACs. Here is the latest set of reviews I did on budget DACs under $99: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/budget-dac-review-behringer-umc204hd.1658/

Look at the tall spike which is the main tone. Notice how their levels are different. That will absolutely results in hearing differences between those two DACs. And not just as level difference but detail, air, etc.

Here we see considerable amount of second harmonic distortion from iFi:

All of this are valuable insight for us that would not be possible without measurements. We know for example that if we want compare these two DACs audibly, we better match their levels or the outcome would be because of that, than fidelity differences.

We also learn which device is better engineered.

jkeny · May 27, 2017

This is at the output of 2 different DACs & not what we listen to!
Did we say anything about differences between 2 different DACs - just confusing matters!

How do we know any of this results in audible & measurable differences at speakers or headphones unless yu can show these measurements
The argument you & BHF put forth is that what happens inside the DAC may well mean that any difference in the input signal is moot - same applies here - how can we know what comes out of the DAC is of audible significance unless you show the measurements that reveal this.

And this you have not done!

jkeny · May 27, 2017

astrostar59 said:
Can I ask jkeny, have you heard this device? Or are we just in the science / theory battle again? I respect any technical knowledge by posters, but I wake up when I see they have heard the device they are talking (passionately) about.

Now all you need is to ask the same question of Amir & BHF!

Elberoth · May 28, 2017

amirm said:
Oh, we absolutely can have measurements that show differences that are heard. What we can't do is to create measurements for what is perceived by a listener using all of their senses. That involves measuring imagination which is a hard thing to do.

Regardless, there should be no fear of presenting data. It will speak for itself. It can for example show a device to be faulty. It can show how it is designed. In this case for example it can show if USB measurements are of any value if they do or do not correlate with the output of the DAC. If they do not, then we can dismiss the USB measurements as misleading marketing material.

I would love to see measurements of your Levinson DAC with say Shunyata power cord and generic computer power cord.

I've been in this hobby for 25 years, I've been reading Stereophile, HFN&RR and many German magazines (all of which publish measurements), but so far, I haven't read (or heard) about a single measurement that would show any meaningful differencies. And those people tried. That would be ground breaking.

jkeny · May 28, 2017

amirm said:
Oh, we absolutely can have measurements that show differences that are heard. What we can't do is to create measurements for what is perceived by a listener using all of their senses. That involves measuring imagination which is a hard thing to do.

What you are really saying is that when a measurement shows no difference in your simplistic & usually flawed measurements you categorise as having no audible effect & any reported audible differences you consider to be imagination

Regardless, there should be no fear of presenting data. It will speak for itself. It can for example show a device to be faulty. It can show how it is designed. In this case for example it can show if USB measurements are of any value if they do or do not correlate with the output of the DAC. If they do not, then we can dismiss the USB measurements as misleading marketing material.

Again what you are really doing is using measurements as a weapon - you have no interest in their applicability to audibility or sound quality - you're just someone with an Audio Precision analyser looking for attention on the internet.

You have presented measurements of 3 USB to SPDIF converters on ASR - Audiohileo, iFi iDAC2 & SIGNSTEK - all 3 measurements overlaid in the following graph - they show the output of a cheap $20 FiiO Taishan DAC when fed with SPDIF from these 3 different USB to SPDIF devices

From these plots we see no difference below 20KHz that is > -100dB - i.e. graphs show no audible difference between the 3 devices so people should buy the $20 SIGNSTEK rather than the $400 Audiophileo or iFi iDAC2 & save themselves $380

So come on Amir, be the consumer champion you claim to be & state this!

jkeny · May 28, 2017

amirm said:
There is the strong sales motive clouding all of these arguments.

The last resort of the desperate - typical of armchair 'engineers' who have never designed, built & have tested in the market any audio device.
And it shows that you have never heard the device that you are talking about but I don't expect that will make a difference as I find your bias negates you hearing any differences which aren't seen in measurements.

What you fail to appreciate by this remark is that some of us are interested in whether new ideas make an audible difference & we investigate & research it. In this case thel original Regen introduced the idea that improved USB signal integrity can make an audible difference. I investigated this & discovered that it does & that it can be improved by even cleaner power. So far from being the consumer champion, you are actually doing your best to impede these new ideas because it doesn't match your world view

That aside, measurements will give us insight as to whether your device performs the same, worse or better job than ISO Regen. Do you want to send me yours to measure?

"Your bias negates your pretensions to scientific credibility"

jkeny · May 28, 2017

amirm said:
I only make measurements because manufacturers refuse to do so and their customers want them. It costs me money to buy these devices and time and energy to make measurements and post them. So by all means, go ahead and make your own measurements if you think you can do a better job. But if you don't, know that I will be if there are user requests. And there are user requests for this device.

Now we have the next self-appointed claim - this time of self-sacrifice - the consumer champion that would do anything to help those anonymous people he feels so sorry for. This is all an attention seeking ego inflating exercise, Amir - nothing to do with finding out about sound quality differences & trying to find measurements which correlate to audibility

As for "claims" that is what the people wanting measurements don't want to hear. Anyone can claim any audible difference. We can't verify that. What we can verify and duplicate are measurements. On that note, no manufacturer has yet produced their own measurements to counter mine. They spend pages and pages protesting but they either don't know, are not capable of, or willing to make their own measurements.

The possibilities that your obvious bias fails to mention is that current measurements (particularly your limited flawed measurements) don't show what's audible.

Legolas · May 28, 2017

jkeny said:
The last resort of the desperate - typical of armchair 'engineers'

"Your bias negates your pretensions to scientific credibility"

My view, forget the hyperbole and mud slinging, buy the thing and listen. if you don't like what you hear, sell it or return it, simple.

I must say there is an element to a lot of these USB 'fixers' that makes their effect in real world systems more complex than discussed here. It is the level of re-clocking. The amount, how accurate and how it is fed the data (Noisy unoptimised PC for example) and the DAC it then feeds and the integrity of the DAC circuit and it's own clocking. Thus this IMO expands the effect or not depending on the source and DAC. That is why I say TRY IT OUT, not fight over lab rsults. Lets face it, if a lab result highlighted a major flaw in the device, it would surface in the sound anyway. Time to move on guys......

jkeny · May 28, 2017

astrostar59 said:
My view, forget the hyperbole and mud slinging, buy the thing and listen. if you don't like what you hear, sell it or return it, simple.

I must say there is an element to a lot of these USB 'fixers' that makes their effect in real world systems more complex than discussed here. It is the level of re-clocking. The amount, how accurate and how it is fed the data (Noisy unoptimised PC for example) and the DAC it then feeds and the integrity of the DAC circuit and it's own clocking. Thus this IMO expands the effect or not depending on the source and DAC. That is why I say TRY IT OUT, not fight over lab rsults. Lets face it, if a lab result highlighted a major flaw in the device, it would surface in the sound anyway. Time to move on guys......

Yep, totally agree - listening with the option of returning is the pragmatic & definitive way to decide whether this is of any audible significance in your playback system.

But Amir infiltrates many threads with misinformation in the guise of 'audio science' - just as a simple & most recent example - his previous graph where he labelled one spike "high Second harmonic" - let him state what % THD this translates into for the readers instead of this attempted misinformation.

amirm · May 28, 2017

jkeny said:
Now all you need is to ask the same question of Amir & BHF!

I have ordered mine but won't be here until end of June according to them. Tried to order it a couple of weeks earlier but Paypal would just fail with no information. Finally tried a different payment method and it worked.

Please don't bug Joshua.

Who's buying the UpTone Audio ISO REGEN?

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