Comparative Listening Tests

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KlausR.

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Dec 13, 2010
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amirm said:
Anyone else? Is it just Ron, Peter and I in this boat? Rest of you have super human hearing that cannot be mistaken as Ron explained?

I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements.

Science tells us that forward firing and (more or less) beaming loudspeakers cannot reproduce musical instruments faithfully: radiation patterns of speakers and instruments, directional characteristics of human hearing stand in the way, the performance space’s early reflections and reverberation as recorded come from wrong directions and at the wrong times, so live music in my book is no reference simply because 2-channel as we know it is not and never will be capable of delivering those goods.
 

KlausR.

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microstrip said:
Originally Posted by KlausR.
“ But proved by what listening method? Sighted? Blind?”

OK, make it blind, in a panel with more than 20 people in controlled conditions.

Do you see now why we need control tests resulting in positive identification?

Testing a particular test design with a reliable reference is certainly advisable of there a doubts concerning the quality of the test design, so yes, in such case I would see the need.

Did you ever participate in any blind test involving audio electronics that you consider adequately carried and had an interesting outcome for audio development?

No. For the reasons I refer to my answer to Amir posted above.
 

stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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Hi Amir,

How about the ones where I questioned your bias in posts #286 and #287? Missed those, huh?

Never mind, no biggie. After the many posts of yours I’ve read since joining the forum, I’m guessing - guessing, mind - your reply would more or less be something along the lines of:



Hi 853guy,

Thank you for your post.

Please allow me to deflect attention away from your points as if my background as Corporate VP at Microsoft obviates me from any responsibility to acknowledge them in light of my bias.

Here instead is a chart I’ve scanned from a textbook. Please note my use of red text, blue text and a different font when I’m doubling down on my bias. By the way, I used to work at Microsoft, did I tell you?

Attached is a photo of “Prof” Keith O. Johnson holding a Grammy, just like Milli Vanilli did.

I’ve also attached another chart of measurements I myself produced under sighted conditions, fully cognisant of the product’s name, its materiality, its build quality, its retail price and the fact that I am resentful I had to pony up to pay for it myself. No controls were necessary here because I decided specifically to subject this product to testing due to the fact if was from a manufacturer I do not sell through my high-end installation business.

Sean Olive.

Also, I’ve attached a stock image of something not related to your post, nor in fact, anything, really, followed by lots and lots of text about ABX tests I have “passed” and issue you a challenge to take them yourself, despite the fact they lack appropriate controls, are self-administered, have limited utility value and prove nothing except that on a particular occasion, a difference was detected to within a certain level of statistical confidence. But allow me to over-generalise on those results anyway.

A photo of my dog.

A lot of rhetoric in which I avoid the need to acknowledge any of the research that offers extremely robust, peer-reviewed, published, statistically-significant findings into experimenter bias, design bias, selection/sampling bias including omission bias and inclusivity bias, the halo effect, response bias, performance bias, procedural bias, measurement bias, reporting bias, citation bias, confounding, reactivity effect (1) and the John Henry Effect. None of those things apply to me anyway because I’ve won three Emmys.

Lots more text on the outrage that I need to justify my position here. Did I not already say I worked at Microsoft?

Floyd Toole.

There. Do you now see how much effort it is for me to deflect attention away from the inherent bias in many of my posts? If only you would take the ABX test you would appreciate that I use those tests very specifically, not because they have any statistical correlation to one’s ability to appreciate music via an intermediary electro-acoustic device, but in order to avoid any self-reflection on my part whether my agenda influences my ability to remain objective about anything I post. Also, I have lots and lots of practice detecting minute sonic differences, so I’m confident you won’t know what to listen for.

Oh. You took the ABX test and had results in which the level of confidence was greater than chance?

Let me give you another one I know I’ve already managed to “pass”.

BTW… link to my new forum: audiobiasreview.com



Did I more or less get the gist of them? Did I get close?

Amir, in all seriousness, you’ve had the chance to contribute something useful to this forum, and beyond that, potentially our pursuit of greater enjoyment from the gear we use to listen to music. The satirical tone above is deliberate and something I take full responsibility for, but in light of my earnest and genuine prior attempts to point out the bias that I and others believe corrupts your perspective, both in my replies to you on this forum and privately, I use this methodology as a last resort (2).

And despite being willing to learn something about an aspect of audio reproduction I’ve heretofore been naive in, your level of credibility - despite your many, many posts (or perhaps, because of them) - has declined steadily for me, and for the all the reasons related to the inherent bias I and others have mentioned previously in the posts you apparently can’t or won’t acknowledge.

“Scientific method is about using ears and only ears to evaluate things. (...) The random evaluation of audiophiles with their eyes open and brain full of prejudice (...) is a recipe for disaster.”

Do you know who said that? You did, in post #372. The exact same person who bought the “$300 AC outlet” to evaluate, and before the evaluation even began stated you were “confident (it) will do zero to improve audio performance”, while planning to conduct an uncontrolled test, sighted.

Using technical knowledge, or data, or graphs, or measurements, or ABX tests, or testing methodologies - without eliminating bias - and using them to further an agenda against those who do not share your world-view is not audio science. It’s audio zealotry. I cannot think of any term to more accurately describes your conduct here.

Of course, I could have simply turned a blind eye to your posts and ignored them as many already do, and perhaps, as you’ve done to me. But given your level of influence, not to mention the way in which you’ve conducted yourself on this forum and your refusal to acknowledge when you’ve been mistaken, intellectually dishonest or simply wrong, I feel compelled to respond because I see someone who has a lot to offer, if only your own agenda and bias could be put to one side. Me personally? I think that’s a shame.

I realise this is just my personal view on your conduct. I too have a bias, so I offer this counterpoint to you fully aware of its limits - it is after all, one person’s perspective. Whether you take it or leave it will be of no consequence to me, but may have continued consequences for the forum in which many good people have left because of your tactics. I know, because I’ve been contacted by some of them personally.

Nevertheless, I continue to wish you well in whatever it is you put your hand to. I hope that whatever that is, it will be built upon something more credible than the posts you make here.

My best to you,

853guy

(1) See the “Hawthorne Effect” in which subjects aware of being observed in a given study show greater variance and inconsistency of results, with both positive and negative skews. For more, see McCambridge, Witton & Elbourne (2014), https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969247/

(2) For more on the use of satire as a critique of claims to power and authority in political discourse, see “The Impact of Real News about ‘Fake News’: Intertextual Processes and Political Satire”; Brewer, Goldthwaite Young & Morreale (2013); https://academic.oup.com/ijpor/arti...-News-about-Fake-News?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Ooooooh, you went there. And there, and there, and there, and there. Ad nauseam (for the bush-league pseudo science type that is).

You're getting closer to the heart of the matter, which I suspect has nothing to do with the perverted flavor of "science" they inject. But rather has much more to do with psycholologic issues of the one espousing the junk "science". Something more along the lines of "The messiah syndrome" where these bush-league science types think they're needed here and we'd be lost without them.

Why some choose to engage them in "meaningful dialogue" is beyond me. Klaus has admitted more than once he cannot discern audible differences between cables and trust me, it ain't just cables. Moreover, just in these past few days, Klaus has admitted to one reason only why he might conduct a test (if he in fact ever does) and that is to show that hearing differences is just a figment of our imagination. But Amir is also much the same. As is his buddy Ethan Winer, the author of the book The Audio Expert.

But I will say this. The Amir's, the Klaus', and the Ethan Winer's and the many other hacks and bush-leaguers of science do provide us a single value (and no more). Which IMO is, they serve as a reminder that many of us in high-end audio are quite lacking in our own ability to interpret what we hear with regard to reproduced music.

I attest that if everybody here in this high-end audio forum possessed reasonable or better listening skills, these bush-league science types would have been laughed out of existence within their first or second post and we wouldn't be chasing their tails as we appear wont to do. But since some of us have listening skills perhaps as poor as the bush-league science type they are welcomed by some with open arms.

And because a good percentage of us lack even some of the basic listening skills these bush-league science types are given credence and hence allowed to barge in and highjack any thread they want and more times than not, they obtain their 15 minutes of fame.

Like I said before, without a complicit audience they are nothing.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Like I said before, without a complicit audience they are nothing.

That's why I keep saying that there is power in the Ignore Button. Trolls need to be fed. It is sobering however to have the membership here see right through the Emperor's New Clothes and to expose him
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
This thread has been reopened with the hope that the thread will remain on topic. Yesterday's last few posts served to show many things as to how WBF members react as they have once and for all drawn a line in the sand . I doubt if any response from said individual will be forthcoming and at the request of members the thread has been reopened
 

Lee

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Feb 3, 2011
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Interesting that you felt the Doshi room beat it. I thought the Doshi room was a great room and I spent the most time there, in part because I am considering Yvettes.

Hi Leif. It was a pleasure meeting you at last. For others wondering what is going on, here is my write up: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-masterbuilt-audio-cables-asc-tubetraps.1575/

And I defend it as much of a drunk guy recalling the women he met at the bar the night before. :D

Anyone who is critical of my write ups doesn't understand who I am and what is meant behind them. I am simply sharing my personal experience with music I heard. If it puts a smile on my face, I say it. If it doesn't, I say that. I try to guess at the issues if that happens. But of course it is not a scientific evaluation.

I thought overspreading the speakers was a common problem at this show. A number of suites had speakers way too far apart (Wilson comes to mind) and then proceeded to play music with high channel separation giving one the impression that two different systems were playing, one on the left, and one on the right. Bless the heart of people who didn't hear that disjointed experience. It bugged the hell out of me. :) It is one of those things that once you notice it -- and I first noticed it at Wilson -- it is hard to get it out of your mind.

Heaven help someone who takes my writing as gospel. :) Read my write-ups to discover music, and see half decent pictures of the event, and some "color" about what was going on.
 

amirm

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amirm, If what I highlighted in bold is true, how do you account for the success of systems like ddk's, MikeL.'s, and the system that 853guy just heard?
The success is due to the fact that vast majority of high-end tweeks do no harm with respect to audio fidelity.

Did they arrive at what they feel are successful systems by following a recipe for disaster? I think someone earlier in this thread observed that the method that most audiophiles use to select the gear in their systems does seem to work to the extent that many of us are very satisfied with how our systems sound.
With respect to the conclusions drawn, and manifested in posts in forums, yes. As an aside, I found Magico to do well at AXPONA, producing excellent sound in different suites.

Assuming that you use a different method, and perhaps even have different goals in this hobby, can I ask if you are satisfied with the sound of your system? You once promised to post details about your system, but I have not yet seen them. I did see a photograph of all of your testing gear in your room. Is that where you listen to music also?
My system produces sound well beyond what I deserve. I am in awe of the fidelity that comes my way compared to when I started in this hobby. At the same time, it has technical compromises that I choose to live with that don't deter from the total joy I get in listening to it. They key with respect to this thread though is that none of the solutions arrived at with faulty sighted evaluations would make it sound one bit better. Indeed, all the Masterbuilt cables did not rescue the VSA system's less than optimal acoustic configuration.

As to the picture, no, that was a picture of my electronics lab in our older home.
 

amirm

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Interesting that you felt the Doshi room beat it. I thought the Doshi room was a great room and I spent the most time there, in part because I am considering Yvettes.
Wasn't that wonderful? Those Yvettes are the most pleasing speakers to my eyes that Wilson has produced. Let's touch base in person at the next show. Love to compare notes as we go along. :)
 

amirm

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Hi Amir,

How about the ones where I questioned your bias in posts #286 and #287? Missed those, huh?
Hi there. No, I did not miss them. I just skipped past them after the first line. :p

Did you say something related to the topic of this thread?

I am not suggesting we stop auditioning components, stop pursuing tweaks or stop listening for significant or subtle differences. I am suggesting that perhaps we should be more realistic and circumspect -- and more skeptical -- about our expressed conclusions. We should attempt to do the best we can do, and to try to remain as intellectually honest as possible, but perhaps we should acknowledge that we may be fooling ourselves about some of our listening conclusions.

What say you? Agree or disagree?
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
My system produces sound well beyond what I deserve

ahh the secret system of Amir that no one has ever been privy to know about. Do share your experiences as to what makes your system sound well beyond what you deserve. Oh and feel free to show us some photos of said system as these were promised to members on countless occasions over the years. Short of that your assertions about your system are meaningless
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Hi there. No, I did not miss them. I just skipped past them after the first line. :p

Did you say something related to the topic of this thread?



What say you? Agree or disagree?

ahh the famous blue ink. Along with that always comes the obfuscation and deflection. Double down as 853guy says. Just more of the same as I see it
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
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Science tells us that forward firing and (more or less) beaming loudspeakers cannot reproduce musical instruments faithfully: radiation patterns of speakers and instruments, directional characteristics of human hearing stand in the way, the performance space’s early reflections and reverberation as recorded come from wrong directions and at the wrong times, so live music in my book is no reference simply because 2-channel as we know it is not and never will be capable of delivering those goods.

Think more about the difference between making music and reproducing it, the part I bolded is not correct.
 

Gregadd

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Apr 20, 2010
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Did he not just use live music as a reference by pointing out something live music does but 2 channel does not?
 

Leif S

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That's why I keep saying that there is power in the Ignore Button. Trolls need to be fed. It is sobering however to have the membership here see right through the Emperor's New Clothes and to expose him

+1
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

Personally I think Mivera is cleaning Amir's clock and he points out one very important fact and that Amir has the same MO of circuitous never ending arguments to deflect away from Mike's very obvious observations re ASR and Amir. I thought Mivera torched Amir and when those facts were mentioned he was threatened with sanctions.

Ahh but Amir saves the "blue"ink for posts here. No need for blue there as it is filled with obfuscation and deflection that everyone there understands. I find it so strange that there was a time when Amir wanted us to keep Mivera at WBF (rather than ban him as everyone was crying out for) as Mivera was the only member at WBF who could teach Amir anything. I guess when Amir is shown up as Mivera did over there he reacts with his usual double down arguments. So no, for me having read the thread, Mivera is cleaning Amir's clock (no pun intended) and is laughing all the way as he exposes Amir. Nothing new there. Same as what we all know about him here
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I must say I agree with you on this. Mike actually sent me the link saying if I want a good laugh to read this thread. Count me out for buying anything from Harman International.

Amir isn't Harman's fault. LOL.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
No but I think their marketing material went to his head a bit much. Seems like he doesn't realize that even the Harman engineers know measurements aren't everything. Likely why he vanished after Mike brought up the specs of the Mark Levinson amp. Looks like Mark Levinson is breaking every rule in the book with measured specs worse than even some gear on Ali Express. Yet it's what he runs in his personal rig, and what he sells at his store.

sure tells us a lot about him doesn't it ;)

Do you think we will ever see photos of his room and system that brings him so much enjoyment. After all he's been promising for 7 1/2 years. Perhaps that says something as well
 

jkeny

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor
Feb 9, 2012
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Much & all as he tries to come back here (every two weeks) & post as if he didn't sneak away leaving questions unanswered which were asked of him - it appears that he isn't getting away with this tactic anymore.
I suggest that we continue this approach - when he shows up again pin him down with all the questions he has tried to dodge/deflect & ignore what he posts.
Ignoring him won't work as there will always be one or two of his sycophants that will answer him & continue his presence here.
 
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