Installing Aries Cerat Symphonia horn speakers

Narayan said:

853guy first of all let me say thank you for sharing your experience with us, it was a pleasure reading about it. Strangely enough I had been waiting for someone to write a review of the Symphonia´s ever since Matej Isaak wrote about them in Mono & Stereo but failed to deliver his impressions on part 2 like he said he would, you filled that void like probably few people will or can, so I will take a bow to you sir! Your prose has ignited my interest / lust for these speakers in the most flammable of ways.

I too adore Pavarotti and Björling makes my top five tenor list, may I be so bold as to recommend you listen to Jaume Aragall if you haven´t done so yet? In Spain where I´m from we´re also guilty of focusing on the Domingo, Kraus, Carreras trinity (add Gayarre for those more well versed) forgetting Aragall who has an absolutely wonderful voice and is better than them. If you don´t believe me listen to this guy, he knew a thing or two about singing

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Hello Narayan,

Well, this is one of the rare times in my audiophile life where I feel like I’m actually sharing something positive. I’d hate to think I’m a cynic or a snob, but when I look back over my life’s experiences in listening to music via an intermediary electro-acoustic mechanism, there’s honestly not a whole I’d feel comfortable writing about. That, and I don’t see the point of writing about something simply to denigrate it knowing it’s possible many others derive tremendous enjoyment from it. Like I say and like you hint at, I’m not a reviewer, simply a music lover whose passion for music has been ignited into flame by the Symphonias in a way no other transducer ever has.

Best,

853guy

P.S. Thanks for the Aragall recommendation, I'll check him out.

flyer said:

Allow me to add that by now I figured out that yes, the Symphonia do scale, a lot, but in a quite different way that I am used to. This has to do with the physics of horn speakers that are more directive, and thus forward throwing. And you need volume to get the full sense of scale these speakers are capable of.
Yet, I would like to add another absolute virtue: staging and focus. The Symphonia do this extremely well, despite the many warnings I got that horn speakers often have difficulty with that.
As they do it so well, this results and brings me back to scale which actually is there but, as mentioned, in a kind of indirect way which, once accustomed (in a smallish room of 22m²) is quickly converted by psychoacoustics to be a massive soundstage.

I never heard the girl in the Girl from Ipanema standing so firm, so clearly, so real and so the right of the right speaker as with the Symphonia, nor the true depth, width and hight of a grand piano on the stage, nor the drum battery in the back of the jazz quartet, etc. Symphonic music sounds at least as grand (in scale, on other criteria it clearly excels) as with dynamic speakers. I guess, and 853guy is a zillion times better at explaining this, this is due to the very right balance of timing, timbre, lack of compression, etc.

One other (yes, you got me launched to talk about these Symphonias...) thing is the speed and utterly resolving character of the speakers, all across the frequency range! Yes, down to the lowest octave it is capable of. In combination with the SET amps and electronics based on tubes and inverted triodes, this is everything but lifeless or 'clinical'.

I think these speakers activate room modes very differently than dynamic speakers. I can now place my listening couch in a position that was unthinkable before.

My listening position is at exact 3 meters from the tweeters. And the tweeters are at 150 cms from the front wall.

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Hi Michel,

Actually, you bring up some really great points. It’s only in reading your comments that my own thoughts have become a bit clearer.

With dynamic driver speakers, my experience is scale mostly tends to be a function of the speaker’s placement in the room and the room’s dimension relative to driver surface area. When it “scales” it’s mostly the speaker exciting the room, hence why I’ve always felt you need a large, “scalable” room in order to get scale from dynamic drivers. With stats and panels, scale is largely a function of the size of the panel relative to placement. Soundlabs and the CLX were great at this when feed considerable power - the ESL57 and hybridised panels, not so much. But the Symphonia doesn’t do either of those things. Dynamics are a function of its innate command of energy, and the way that energy is delivered and curated. And exactly like you say, it’s paradoxically both more directive and enveloping, perhaps because of the way in which the Symphonia activates room modes (or not), which is a new experience for me.

Also, now that you mentioning staging, I should add that later in the afternoon I asked to sit on the outer cushions of the couch. Usually, two things happen: Firstly, the balance becomes dominated by whichever channel you’re sitting closest to, much like lifting one of the earpieces of your headphones off your head, and secondly; the music itself almost undergoes a “remix” in which instruments and voices either get louder or softer relative to the original mix itself. It’s pretty unbearable, which is one of the reasons I wonder if shows are so problematic unless you’ve been gifted the hot seat. But for whatever reason, the Symphonia doesn’t do this either. It not only allows you to sit off axis (relative the left/right) and still get a phenomenal soundstage in both the X, Y and Z axis (almost like an omni - though not the same as that), it remains proportionate to the mix so that you’re not suddenly feeling like someone’s toddler’s entered the studio and re-set all the faders.

I’m actually laughing to myself. You know how you have a revelation about something, but it’s so profound you can’t digest it all in one go? Classic one for me will be my wife telling me something about my behaviour or attitude (thankfully, not all that often) that I kinda semi-acknowledge but I’m too stuck in my own obstinance to fully acknowledge. I’ll then be driving in the car days later and suddenly go “Oh…. THAT thing, yeah okay, I see that now, right, yeah… that’s… THAT’S how I’m thinking, okay… okayed…”. The Symphonia does that. Four days later I feel like I’m still try to process exactly what happened, and my brain is only just managing to catch up.

Hope you’re well, Michel, and enjoying every second of your time with them.

853guy

P.S. Oh, yeah… That whole top-to-bottom resolution thing? I’ve heard a few panels/stats and dynamic driver designs do it, but never with the same force, momentum, authority agility and delicacy. Again, a first for me.

morricab said:

All sounds spookily familiar.
Yes, I will be at Munich from Friday onward.

CU there!

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Hmm. Maybe we were separated at birth. Did Obi-Wan tell you Vader betrayed and murdered your father?

See you there!

853guy

spiritofmusic said:

Can I just add my two cents and support the view that this is a great thread
853 has got to be one of the most poetic, descriptive posters on the forum, and he's found a product he's really waxing lyrical on
853, just a few qs
First, you really feel these horns are truly suited to the kind of music one doesn't normally associate horns with?
They really would work playing Miles "Bitches Brew" and his 70s electric fusion?
70s prog and fusion, Mahavushnu to Magma?
London Grammar to Porcupine Tree?
Blue Note favourites to John Zorn?
John Coltrane w Pharoe Sanders to Sun Ra to Albert Ayers to Ornette Coleman late 60s free jazz?
90s King Crimson to Marillion
And all the usual horns favourites?

Their bass TRULY is extended, deep, room filling, energetic, fast and fully integrated w the other drivers?
I did love the Cessaro Liszts I've heard 3x now, but there is some disconnect w that 13" lower mids/upper bass cone

The Symphonias would really suit my room ergonomically
5.5m wide X 17m deep X 3m high at midline apex down to 1.5m side walls

If it hadn't been mentioned, current rrp for different specs?

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Hey Spirit,

Ha. Are “poetic”, “descriptive” and “waxing lyrical on” euphemisms for BS?

I’m kidding, of course. If you can read between the lines I hope it’s obvious I really enjoy writing, and especially when dealing with subjective impressions and intellectual excogitations. But words eloquently spoken (or typed, for that matter) can often obfuscate reality - language, for all its incredible power to communicate (a) truth, is so often used to bury it. But that’s a discussion for another time…

The ’truth’ is, this is just my perspective. I don’t claim an ultimate reality, or indeed, any sort of authority - at the end of the day it’s just my opinion. I certainly don’t envy those who make a living writing about hi-fi. A ‘Highly Recommended’ may be easy to type, but for the consumer who lacks the ability to audition things for themselves, it’s very rarely a guarantee of anything more than an expensive folly one must chalk up to experience. For me, I’ve learned to review the reviewer and the not the review, and I accept that audio journalism in all its shapes and forms comes with caveats relative to personal responsibility and consumer education. But sheesh, to say another human being should go and drop their disposable income (or take advantage of the bank’s willingness to lend them money) just ‘cause of something I experienced and then attempted to turn into some form of intelligible English is a weight I’m very glad I’m not tasked with shouldering.

I’m just some guy with an opinion on a journey to ensure that the resources of my family are stewarded in a way that’s cognisant of the fact my children will outlive me and it’s important to me they’re not asked to fix problems my generation was responsible for (and yes, I’m talking about more than just luxury purchases). Does that need to be said? Is this some sort of admission of guilt that I’m even in a position to consider the Symphonia as a purchase in the first place? No. But I do take seriously the words I type, and I’m conscious of the privilege it is to freely share my experience here, aware that some people will use them as data points. For me, there’s no way I would make a decision like this unless I was fully convinced my family’s resources were being used for something I truly believed will enrich our lives beyond my own preferences. But that’s just me.

So I’ve attempted to contextualise my thoughts as individually as possible within the finitude of my perspective, and nothing more. And as I hope you gathered, specifically took music that doesn’t tend to fare well on many systems assembled from ‘recommended’ and ‘best-of-the-year’ lists lifted from whatever audio journal you may wish to name. In fact, that was the point. Like you, my music listening diet flips the nutrient pyramid upside down (and no, don’t get me started on refined and processed foods…), and though I was very wary of dominating too much of Michel’s time knowing that Stavros was flying out the same day and set-up was still in process, I tried to play what I though would not only be representative of the type of stuff I personally listen to, but to see whether the Symphonia could make real, meaningful, purposeful, intentional, emotionally charged music out of it.

So although I’ll refrain from making assumptions on your behalf and definitive statements about music choices beyond what I actually listened to on the day, if I had to to answer your questions, reluctantly, acknowledging the answers are really no better than guesses, I’d say:

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.

And to your first and last questions, absolutely yes.*

I know, it’s the “miracle” speaker everyone wants, right? Well, no. We all have different biases, and all are limited to our perspectives. I can only say, that if you can’t make it to Munich, given electrical and room quality are ironically pretty much exactly what define the success of the performance of system, please get in touch with Michel and go hear them for yourself. Given your investment in a new room, and the open-mindedness to depart from conventional solutions, I’d be prepared to wager at least one beer if not two that it’ll be worth you time and effort.

Be well, Spirit!

853guy

*Yep, I really feel these horns are suited to whatever music you want to throw at them, and without caveat. And bass? Dude, if you think that little 8” thing in that big long horn isn’t going to do it for you for all the reasons you list, think again. I had to.

853, yr name please!
Well, I'll reserve to remain reserved until I hear them
But yr enthusiasm is great to hear
Any idea how they likely might wk w non Cerat amps?
Like my 70W Class A 211s NATs SE2SEs?

853guy said:

(...) Well, this is one of the rare times in my audiophile life where I feel like I’m actually sharing something positive. I’d hate to think I’m a cynic or a snob, but when I look back over my life’s experiences in listening to music via an intermediary electro-acoustic mechanism, there’s honestly not a whole I’d feel comfortable writing about. (...)

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I would risk to ask how long you have been an audiophile? I have been in the hobby for about 40 years and there are tens, even hundreds of great positives experiences I could happily share with people if it was not the case that I am a lazy and lousier audio writer ... Most of the time my systems gives me great experiences, even when I am fiddling with the system, as currently.

Effectively, once we assemble a proper system I think that many people could write similar words about many other speakers, if they were skilled writers. IMHO high-end sound is not just great equipment, it is great equipment for the proper person, also in the proper place.

BTW, as I said, I enjoyed your writings - they triggered my attention - but nothing I have read anywhere about the Symphonias approaches a properly carried review. Lots of enthusiasm and passionate poetry , but not systematic enough to give an idea of what you and others have really heard.

But, and this the important point, probably next time I fly in Europe I will try to have a stop in Brussels!

spiritofmusic said:

853, yr name please!
Well, I'll reserve to remain reserved until I hear them
But yr enthusiasm is great to hear
Any idea how they likely might wk w non Cerat amps?
Like my 70W Class A 211s NATs SE2SEs?

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Hey Spirit,

I belong to a secret society and am about to ascend to the highest level. You can call me Your Most Distinguished Excellency, if you wish, but never look me in the face.

I was reserved until I heard them too, and now have typed about a bazillion words being unreserved.

Non-Cerat amps? No idea, sorry. I could guess, but… it’d be a guess.

As I wrote in reply to Morricab:

853guy said:

(the Symphonia) is the electro-acoustic manifestation of the all the values already inherent in the DAC, pre and amp.

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As I tried to illustrate in those diagrams, there’s something about the AC stuff that doesn’t seem to emphasize one aspect over another, at least to my ears. Many systems get assembled around balancing trade-offs relative to one another, with a deficit in the DAC trying to be ameliorated in the pre, which brings its own set of compromises, which need to be dealt with by the amp, etc, etc. Some systems I’ve heard tend to group, say, leading edge definition together, without dealing with the fact that harmonic content is sacrificed, only to realise too late that the speakers they’ve chosen (or the cables, or the footers) are really half-measures to "restore" what was never there in the first place.

As I wrote in my High End post, even with a speaker I did not personally like, the attributes of energy distribution were still explicitly rendered, and now in hearing the Symphonia, have found their commensurate zenith. Could you run a Symphonia on NATs? Sure, of course. Would you be getting the best out of the Symphonia? Only you, my friend, are in the position to tell us.*

Like I also said to Morricab, I’m a Speaker First but Everything Else Matters Just As Much kinda guy. And yes, for many of us, we build a system piece by piece for all sorts of reasons, attempting to learn as we go. But at the risk of dogmatism, I still pretty much feel buying a great speaker but failing to give it what it needs to perform at its best seems like a needless compromise leading to the wringing of hands, and the re-opening of the wallet.

Best,

853guy

*Or default to Michel’s reply he's just posted!

microstrip said:

I would risk to ask how long you have been an audiophile? I have been in the hobby for about 40 years and there are tens, even hundreds of great positives experiences I could happily share with people if it was not the case that I am a lazy and lousier audio writer ... Most of the time my systems gives me great experiences, even when I am fiddling with the system, as currently.

Effectively, once we assemble a proper system I think that many people could write similar words about many other speakers, if they were skilled writers. IMHO high-end sound is not just great equipment, it is great equipment for the proper person, also in the proper place.

BTW, as I said, I enjoyed your writings - they triggered my attention - but nothing I have read anywhere about the Symphonias approaches a properly carried review. Lots of enthusiasm and passionate poetry , but not systematic enough to give an idea of what you and others have really heard.

But, and this the important point, probably next time I fly in Europe I will try to have a stop in Brussels!

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Hi Micro,

A decade less than you in real terms probably, but was very obsessed with my Dad’s valve radio from as soon as I could crawl. To clarify, I’ve had lots of meaningful experiences that turned out positively, but many of them were defined more by what I was not trying to achieve rather than what I was. I guess that’s a positive, right?

As I allude to, a lot of my music taste is not the sort of thing you’ll typically find at a dealer’s room or a show. Part of my disappointment had come when straying away from musical repertoire that wasn’t designed specifically to show off the attributes of the recording process. I get everyone has different taste, and fundamentally, builds a system around their musical and sonic preferences. I’m no different, but wanted a system that did well at conveying the intention of artistry inherent in all recorded music, irrespective of whether it was Messiaen, Miles or Mastodon and indifferent to whether it was recorded well or poorly.

Like I say in my first post, I’m not a reviewer, and don’t even play one on television. I’m an individual who’s been on a journey of attempting to discover the best system for me. I share my experience willingly and gratefully, completely aware no matter how many words I type all this is just one guy’s opinion and limited to that. I’m under absolutely no illusion that the written word only goes so far, and no amount of rhetoric, no matter how elegant, can come close to fully expressing what it is that we experience in the presence of music.

You, of course, cannot ever know what I heard, because what I heard is more precisely only ever going to be my perception of what I think I heard, and attempting to articulate that through words is yet another process different again. To me, writing and music are two completely distinct forms of communication that have become art forms in-and-of-themselves, and therefore the direct translation of one to the other is, I believe, conceptually and practically impossible, despite our efforts. I could have given you a whole lot of measurements but no objective parameter will ever convey, say, the artistry of a great pianist, which for me, is the only arbiter of whether a hi-fi system is successful in fulfilling its mandate.

Instead, I fall back on the written word and infuse it with expression to mirror my subjective perception. It’s extremely limited, I concur, but it’s the only vehicle I have.

Of course, my hope would be that if you did make the trip to Brussels you’d be rewarded with the type of experience I had, but given all I think I know about humanity and our preferences, hold that hope lightly in my hands. I would however, love to see whether you’re able to translate your thoughts into coherent, intelligible language that we all can relate to - I’ve been trying to do so for five days now and am still struggling!

Be well, Micro!

853guy

Flyer, I'm running my NATs on 101dB/1m efficient Zu Audio Definitions 4 spkrs
Not deathly quiet, but after sorting issue w tubes in the NATs Utopia preamp, hum is v low
In the basis of this, I'm confident they'd be ok
I'm a massive fan of what my 70W all Class A 211s bring to the table, w SS like grip and neutrality w tube natural warmth and extension at both frequency extremes
I've never heard a more convincing lower mids/upper bass as I have w the NATs
At the behest of Ked Im looking to listen to some restored Apogees, but if I do move from Zu I'm minded to go horns
Unfortunately so few examples are genre agnostic
So, more often then not the illusion comes crashing down going from Miles "Kind Of Blue" or "Sketches Of Spain", to Miles "Jack Johnson" or "Agharta"
For me, my main endorphin rush w horns has been the Cessaro Liszts, which despite some design drawbacks and the room I heard them in doing their best to scupper the demo communicated to me fully
Hairs fully up on arms and back of neck playing Side Two of Stomo Yamashta "Go" (a good candidate for most overlooked album of all time)
My most consistent experience of horns has to be Blue58's AG Duos Omegas off home made 45s tube amps, w SGM server/Dac8, just deals w song after song of prog and fusion w great aplomb
S Wilson remastered Yes "Tales From Topographic Oceans" suitably cosmic at Barry's
These are my two data points if I was ever to go the Symphonias route, w honourable mention to AG Trios/Subs231

I have tried both SS and PP on the Symphonias. I borrowed a Krell amp and that was as harsh as sandpaper and the PP amp (unknown brand) fared ok, but due to its high impedance did have a glare on the top end that made it difficult to listen to much.

The speaker (like most horns) are a magnifying glass to the upstream equipment. What you thought was great may not be so great after plugging it into the Symphonia.

Case in point, I did a trial for a potential client who had 100db+ Voxactiv Ampeggio Duos. He demo'd the Concero's and the Incito Pre to his Lamm Phono and used the Kassandra for the digital. At the end of the 30 days he wasn't as impressed as I had hoped he would be. Complimentary feedback, but not overwhelming like our 853guy had with the Magico's at Brussels. I offered to have him come by to listen to the same gear on the Symphonia's

Game over...

High sensitivity dynamic speakers and Horn high high sensitivity do not paint the same picture at all. A full range driver in this case is handling the full the FR compare to a fraction of the movement from a ribbon and compression mid is a whole different ballgame sound wise and distortion wise.

P.S. 853guy, I already own the Symphonia's and you make me want to buy another pair!!

Believe High Fidelity said:

(...)

P.S. 853guy, I already own the Symphonia's and you make me want to buy another pair!!

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For your other yacht, right? I think you deserve it, don't you?

Yours in glorious excess,

853guy

Hmm, don't the LV Olympians go on yachts?
Symphonias would be quite nice on a well appointed houseboat

Joshua, I get yr point about a high eff box spkr w full range driver having not much in common w high eff horn compression driver
My Zus fit the former category
They really thrive on my NATs 211s
Just how would I really know how good the synergy of NATs and Symphonias would be?
Somehow I can't imagine there will be any chance of sale or return

Flyer, what are your room dimensions?
I ask because I'm very familiar w a horns setup in a smallish room too, and there is no shortage of bass on electronic, dub and ambient there

spiritofmusic said:

Flyer, what are your room dimensions?
I ask because I'm very familiar w a horns setup in a smallish room too, and there is no shortage of bass on electronic, dub and ambient there

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Hello Spirit

Have you had experience with bass horns which their length in meters is comparable to the room size they are installed?
Bass horn of the Symphonia is 11 foot long(3.3m) and room size is 4X5m. This makes the speaker placement much more sensitive.On top of that,the speaker does not use the corners of the room as extension of their bass horn length(it has more than double the length of other BH),so not only it does not benefit from corner placement,like other bass horns,you must avoid it.The speaker would be more happy(as myself) if it was at least 60cm more distant from the front corners(it was already at 1.2m away,if Michel can correct me?).

But moving the speaker more forward,would push Michel's couch out of the room.I do not think he would be happy,although i offered myself to help with the sledgehammer if he ever decides to extent the room

As Michel mentioned, bass extension on that room is beyond what i would of expect of this room size(despite knowing that he has tune-able bass traps), and couple of organ tracks/Kodo tracks verify that.I avoid electronic music(though i enjoy it ) for bass tuning.

Best
Stavros

I think what people might not realize looking at Michel’s pic is that the SMT wings themselves are 18 inches deep – distance to the wall. IIRC the ones on the side are 18 inches and the ones behind are 24 inches. So while the speakers look closer to the wall the soundwaves are travelling more