Zero Distortion: Apogee Duetta, Scintilla, and tussle with horns

spiritofmusic · Apr 22, 2017

Justin, Kim in Sheffield had one session w well restored and set up Scinnies, and he decided there and then to go all in Scinnies
What makes you doubt you might not?
By Kim's and Ked's first had accounts, other than amp challenge, the Scinnies triumph over the Duettas, and by some margin
FR like presentation esp the mids (that Kim says is so far in advance of any other spkr incl Duettas, it's embarrassing), 4 tweeter ribbons for a more incisive and airier top end, and tighter, more extended bass
That Hifi Advice review even intimated the Scinnies were more of a whole than the FRs by way of single amping and no need for active xover
Just the Duettas potential to be used w some tube amps the only advantage
I'm minded to find a good Scinnies demo and if the magic is there, who knows, I may bang on Henk's door

Argonaut · Apr 22, 2017

bonzo75 said:
They are quite good, not saying they are bad at all. Just that we are on WBF, and I can choose only one of these

For the intrepid CLX owner you also have the option of accessing a set of dip swatches within the xover which gains one either +1 or +2dB from mid base to lower mids which als has the effect off putting a little more meat on the bones.

Anyway, you are an fully signed up Apogee guy through and through and I am certain your system, when you possess it all that is, will sound very good.
Remember that I have owned Duetta's myself in the past, and had the use of a friends Scintilla's for a year whilst he was working in Singapore, I like them, and would quite like another pair in an alternate system at some point in the future.

bonzo75 · Apr 22, 2017

Harlequin said:
For the intrepid CLX owner you also have the option of accessing a set of dip swatches within the xover which gains one either +1 or +2dB from mid base to lower mids which als has the effect off putting a little more meat on the bones.

Anyway, you are an fully signed up Apogee guy through and through and I am certain your system, when you possess it all that is, will sound very good.
Remember that I have owned Duetta's myself in the past, and had the use of a friends Scintilla's for a year whilst he was working in Singapore, I like them, and would quite like another pair in an alternate system at some point in the future.

I think will try to get Justin to work in Singapore for a year. I am not signed up to anything. I want no more than two speakers in my future. So Scintilla and horns, one will have to go. Am quite open to be dazzled by a lower cost, easier to manage speaker should I find one. That +1 and +2db is interesting, was not aware of that.

morricab · Apr 22, 2017

the sound of Tao said:
Bleached tone of the Animas... what garbage.

The Zu's I've heard have been middle of the road at best.

Thanks, you saved me a long post .

morricab · Apr 22, 2017

bonzo75 said:
I know spirit does not like the Anima, nor does Bill, but Brad, I and Tao do. Mani and f1eng own them. What does bleached tone mean, though?

I just realized i had heard the Rowen with JBL 66000 and compared to Jadis and had not liked them, thin and no tone.

I think the Edge NL has a good used price and the current and power to drive scintilla, never heard them though

Funny we can agree on Anima (it was one of my top Munich choices) but not on LV/Kondo.

I heard Edge NL reference monos with Nola Pegasus SE and that was one of the better Mahler demos I have heard.

bonzo75 · Apr 22, 2017

morricab said:
Funny we can agree on Anima (it was one of my top Munich choices) but not on LV/Kondo.

I heard Edge NL reference monos with Nola Pegasus SE and that was one of the better Mahler demos I have heard.

We also agree on Universum

Zero000 · Apr 22, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Justin, Kim in Sheffield had one session w well restored and set up Scinnies, and he decided there and then to go all in Scinnies
What makes you doubt you might not?
By Kim's and Ked's first had accounts, other than amp challenge, the Scinnies triumph over the Duettas, and by some margin
FR like presentation esp the mids (that Kim says is so far in advance of any other spkr incl Duettas, it's embarrassing), 4 tweeter ribbons for a more incisive and airier top end, and tighter, more extended bass
That Hifi Advice review even intimated the Scinnies were more of a whole than the FRs by way of single amping and no need for active xover
Just the Duettas potential to be used w some tube amps the only advantage
I'm minded to find a good Scinnies demo and if the magic is there, who knows, I may bang on Henk's door

There are Duettas and Duettas, and Scinnies and Scinnies.

The degree of difference between a good and average Duetta is really quite marked. Therefore stating that a Scinnie is better than a Duetta is almost a daft comparison, unless you've heard both of the examples in question.

So in short I wouldn't listen to anyone's opinion and I for one don't expect a huge improvement in a good Scinnie over a good Duetta.

Scinnies are a pain in the arse from the amp choice point of view and that is really important I think. I've had countless amps on mine trying to find good ones and there are very few I can live with. Imagine that choice being very restricted and you have a problem.

bonzo75 · Apr 22, 2017

User211 said:
There are Duettas and Duettas, and Scinnies and Scinnies.

The degree of difference between a good and average Duetta is really quite marked. Therefore stating that a Scinnie is better than a Duetta is almost a daft comparison, unless you've heard both of the examples in question.

So in short I wouldn't listen to anyone's opinion and I for one don't expect a huge improvement in a good Scinnie over a good Duetta.

Scinnies are a pain in the arse from the amp choice point of view and that is really important I think. I've had countless amps on mine trying to find good ones and there are very few I can live with. Imagine that choice being very restricted and you have a problem.

You usually don't expect a good improvement in most things and don't hear it either

morricab · Apr 22, 2017

bonzo75 said:
We also agree on Universum

True that. What is your opinion now about big Odeons? Do we agree there too?? Maybe we can go 3 out of 4.

bonzo75 · Apr 22, 2017

morricab said:
True that. What is your opinion now about big Odeons? Do we agree there too?? Maybe we can go 3 out of 4.

I liked them in Michael's room, just not magical enough for the price. They are like a good cone of that size, more open. The box sounds more like a box than a horn. It charges Anima prices. The advantage is that they can fit smaller rooms, and sound good there, where bigger horns won't get in. I think Universums have better mids and soundstage, these have more bass fill. I like them though that they are not like duos or smaller Acapellas where I hear disparate drivers and the bass is just off. There were times both with the Diana and the KR that I mentioned to Christoph we can listen to this all day. Just that, again, this is about what's best for the money and space.

Let me put it this way - I would take Scintilla and Duettas over them easily, but if I had the room size, there are a couple of horns that I would choose over the Scinnies.

spiritofmusic · Apr 22, 2017

Justin, just what are you trying to say?
Jon restored Kim's Duettas, and he restored your's
He's restoring the Scinnies Kim is buying
Are you trying to say both yr prs of Duettas are chalk and cheese?
If that's the case, what is the point of even trying to audition Apogees?
Kim is adamant the Scinnies are superior in every way, save the amp killer proviso
And just why is it the case that it's ok for you to highlight just how impractical it is re amp choice and Scinnies, whereas when the rest of us do we're labelled as unecesarily downbeat by potential owner Ked
In effect you're saying no two pairs of Apogees will sound the same, the most amp-friendly Apogee ie Duettas has required real work to find synergy w the right amps, and the Scinnies are a whole layer of complexity further down the amp choice consideration
I don't see Ked disagreeing w you, but he will do w the rest of us looking perplexed from outside the Apogee amp straight jacket world

Zero000 · Apr 22, 2017

I can't vouch for what Kim has heard so I can't comment. He may have heard a really good Scintilla set up where the room was great and the supporting gear was too. I just don't know. I don't know what his Duetta spec was like but I'd assume just a standard refurb.

Having lived with a standard refurb and the Interstella I think there's a pretty substantial improvement.

Amp choice for Scinnies is fine if you know you could live with what you hear when you demo them. At least you might think that at the time. But it is only really a few weeks of living with an amp that you get to be sure you like it, I find.

I'm a fussy bugger when it comes to amps. The 211s, Ked's now sold Ayons, the Accuphase amps and the Parasound A21 are all pretty good Duetta drivers I think.

Once again Marc I would steer you away from Apogees. They aren't good for you without even owning them!

You would always be phased by them I think.

Those Ayons grew on me over time. Not enough to buy them though.

Zero000 · Apr 22, 2017

bonzo75 said:
You usually don't expect a good improvement in most things and don't hear it either

I'm a deaf bugger.

I'm not sure those PX4s aren't getting a bit better. I haven't swapped them out for a couple of weeks now... that's an achievement.

bonzo75 · Apr 22, 2017

Sorry Marc, please don't bring me into this. I have my own disagreements with Justin who is extremely stubborn

Zero000 · Apr 22, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Sorry Marc, please don't bring me into this. I have my own disagreements with Justin who is extremely stubborn

About what?

morricab · Apr 22, 2017

bonzo75 said:
I liked them in Michael's room, just not magical enough for the price. They are like a good cone of that size, more open. The box sounds more like a box than a horn. It charges Anima prices. The advantage is that they can fit smaller rooms, and sound good there, where bigger horns won't get in. I think Universums have better mids and soundstage, these have more bass fill. I like them though that they are not like duos or smaller Acapellas where I hear disparate drivers and the bass is just off. There were times both with the Diana and the KR that I mentioned to Christoph we can listen to this all day. Just that, again, this is about what's best for the money and space.

Let me put it this way - I would take Scintilla and Duettas over them easily, but if I had the room size, there are a couple of horns that I would choose over the Scinnies.

I think they integrate quite good although my two-way Full horns are even better in this regard and I think they work well in smallish rooms. I think what they deliver is a less colored presentation than a lot of other horns and therefore are not immediately "hornlike ". But dynamics and resolution are quite hornlike, although not as extreme as Anima in this regard.

IMO, the sound at Michael's will be better still once all electronics are optimized

bonzo75 · Apr 22, 2017

User211 said:
About what?

Your first duetta was awful. Your Lampi is now 10 % of the Lampis out there. And you can do much better with a good class A amp.

spiritofmusic · Apr 22, 2017

Ked, not sure what you're objecting to?
So, you are two Apogee fans in the UK, you can count the total number in this green and pleasant isle on the fingers of two hands, and I can't rely on you to agree at all, or have mutual data points? Really?
Justin, potential Apogee ownership is a kind of hybrid thought expt/"what if" scenario that in my case always leads to one logical conclusion, the one you've just stated
On the one hand, we have Ked who having discovered how much he loves them, and is of the "nothing is too much trouble" camp
They're great, affordable, so buy 'em
Can live w any amp that just about does the job, and then churn thru amp variations until you hit on the right one, w the added thrill that Scintillas are the most fussy of all
On the other hand we have your point of view, based on long experience, that Apogee ownership demands really complex choices, you can't be sure of anything, even the ostensibly more "straightfwd" Duettas are a bitch to get right, let alone the true bitch, Scinnies
And even when you're getting it right, they will test yr mental health
So here's my challenge
I would love a list of tried and tested amp choices for Apogees, and Scinnies in particular
Not amps that could work, or might work, or should work, or work on paper
No, amps that have been tested in the field w modern day Apogee restorations
We know the amps that work w horns, w box spkrs, w stats
But I still have no idea which are proven thru user experience to absolutely match up well w Apogees, especially Scintillas
There are a lot of posts that say "have you tried this?", "this could work", "this should work"
What amps are brilliant w Apogees and Scinnies esp?
Seems a risky strategy

Zero000 · Apr 22, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Your first duetta was awful. Your Lampi is now 10 % of the Lampis out there. And you can do much better with a good class A amp.

Ok Ok - your Lampi GG is a total mess. It had the same problem Rob's did with a massive valve microphony issue. You haven't even got a hi-fi system and if I bring up your original review of my first Duettas on the ML website you'll look like a chump.

At least I've owned two pairs of Apogees and had a substantial input into the 2nd pair, instead of ranting on about them forever without getting some.

Zero000 · Apr 22, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Ked, not sure what you're objecting to?
So, you are two Apogee fans in the UK, you can count the total number in this green and pleasant isle on the fingers of two hands, and I can't rely on you to agree at all, or have mutual data points? Really?
Justin, potential Apogee ownership is a kind of hybrid thought expt/"what if" scenario that in my case always leads to one logical conclusion, the one you've just stated
On the one hand, we have Ked who having discovered how much he loves them, and is of the "nothing is too much trouble" camp
They're great, affordable, so buy 'em
Can live w any amp that just about does the job, and then churn thru amp variations until you hit on the right one, w the added thrill that Scintillas are the most fussy of all
On the other hand we have your point of view, based on long experience, that Apogee ownership demands really complex choices, you can't be sure of anything, even the ostensibly more "straightfwd" Duettas are a bitch to get right, let alone the true bitch, Scinnies
And even when you're getting it right, they will test yr mental health
So here's my challenge
I would love a list of tried and tested amp choices for Apogees, and Scinnies in particular
Not amps that could work, or might work, or should work, or work on paper
No, amps that have been tested in the field w modern day Apogee restorations
We know the amps that work w horns, w box spkrs, w stats
But I still have no idea which are proven thru user experience to absolutely match up well w Apogees, especially Scintillas
There are a lot of posts that say "have you tried this?", "this could work", "this should work"
Seems a risky strategy

Alright Marc just come over for a listen. That's right you are invited again since now Kedar is the enemy. He's never coming again LOL. And why would he want to? Even my Interstellas are shite.

(I'm smiling BTW).

Zero Distortion: Apogee Duetta, Scintilla, and tussle with horns

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