Zero Distortion: Apogee Duetta, Scintilla, and tussle with horns

Zero000

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I suppose you can have fun with a Scintilla messing around with different "can it drive it well?" amps. But I'd really recommend something with power meters, just so you know how much strain your putting on the amps.

Watching the power meters on my Accuphase monos tells me I'm not dumping half a Kilowatt into them, which is really useful when you've been drinking. There's a tendency to overdrive when you out of the room and drunk - or less than sober at any rate:)
 

853guy

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Class A halves at each impedance drop. So half at 4 ohms, half at 2 ohms, half at 1ohm. You can get the first few initial watts in class A at 1 ohm if you start off higher.

Yes, of course. In this case it depends whether 3.625 watts in Class A will be sufficient to wake a lowish-sensitivity speaker, especially when asked to play full spectrum content (i.e. Beethoven's 9th) at convincing - but not necessarily "realistic" - levels.

However, as a lower-cost reference in which to establish a base-line, you could do worse than this:

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/774/#zCZDi3EKgk5W2VPO.97

Be well, Bonzo.

853guy
 

Zero000

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Yes, of course. In this case it depends whether 3.625 watts in Class A will be sufficient to wake a lowish-sensitivity speaker, especially when asked to play full spectrum content (i.e. Beethoven's 9th) at convincing - but not necessarily "realistic" - levels.

However, as a lower-cost reference in which to establish a base-line, you could do worse than this:

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/774/#zCZDi3EKgk5W2VPO.97

Be well, Bonzo.

853guy

Excellent recommendation. Kedar has heard an A21 on Apogees. Sure the house sound will be reflected in the JC1s. High quality tube pre would really help here I think. I used an EAR 868PL in front of my A21 (now long gone).
 

spiritofmusic

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There's obv 101 amps that on paper can drive the Scinnies
But maybe only a tiny percentage of this number that will make the Scinnies sound any good
Ked could spend btwn now and his dying day auditioning them all, or buying them and seeing what works
Surely there can't be many others in this hobby who just buy a spkr and worry about amp synergy at a later date?
Anyone buying Trios, Liszts, MLs, Quads, Wilsons, Rockports, YGs, Giyas, Zus even , and plonking them in a system where the behaviour w the incumbent amp is not already known?
I can't think of anyone
 

bonzo75

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There's obv 101 amps that on paper can drive the Scinnies
But maybe only a tiny percentage of this number that will make the Scinnies sound any good
Ked could spend btwn now and his dying day auditioning them all, or buying them and seeing what works
Surely there can't be many others in this hobby who just buy a spkr and worry about amp synergy at a later date?
Anyone buying Trios, Liszts, MLs, Quads, Wilsons, Rockports, YGs, Giyas, Zus even , and plonking them in a system where the behaviour w the incumbent amp is not already known?
I can't think of anyone


The thing is before we decide on a speaker you always hear it with something and like it. Does not mean that amp has to be your final amp. Just because you hear a turntable and buy it, you have to choose the exact same phonostage and cartridge? Or can you say I will decide the cart later?

By your logic, no one would have swapped a power amp after buying their speaker, because they should have known the amp when they bought that speaker. Quite silly
 

853guy

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There's obv 101 amps that on paper can drive the Scinnies
But maybe only a tiny percentage of this number that will make the Scinnies sound any good
Ked could spend btwn now and his dying day auditioning them all, or buying them and seeing what works
Surely there can't be many others in this hobby who just buy a spkr and worry about amp synergy at a later date?
Anyone buying Trios, Liszts, MLs, Quads, Wilsons, Rockports, YGs, Giyas, Zus even ??, and plonking them in a system where the behaviour w the incumbent amp is not already known?
I can't think of anyone

Hi Spirit,

Class A amps to drive a Scintilla, at real-world levels, with real music, for non-Boulder, Vitus and Gryphon money? I’d say there’s less than ten.

Personally, I don’t think Bonzo’s process is irrational. No speaker will ever make up for an amps deficiencies, of course. But then no amp is ever going to turn electrical energy into sound energy. And from my own experience with horns, stats, planars and dynamic driver topologies, how they turn electricity into sound is neither equivalent nor comparable, hence the fervent divergence of preference even on this forum. Deciding on a topology - especially one that works in real-world rooms - is, for my money, the one essential that’s often overlooked by over-amorous romantics, that neither consider how the speaker energizes the room, and secondly, exactly what type of current and power demands it will make of the amp when playing actual music.

There’s nothing wrong with falling in love. I’ve done it many times. But if you plan to go all-in and decide this is if for the long-haul, you’re best to make sure you can afford to make your wife happy, and make whatever adjustments may be necessary in order to ensure a long and fruitful partnership.

Did I say “wife”? I meant “speaker”.

Or did I?

Best,

853guy
 

FrantzM

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Bonz..

Yours are often interesting reads and threads. T

Our tastes are similar. I like planar and I , now, love horns.

At this point in my life I know I am all horns and their presentation is different from planar's.

If you decide to go toward a Scintilla, you can choose any amp , even a low wattage SET.. such amp will likely move the membrane and elicit sounds and you may even like those sounds. Do however keep this in mind at all time: The Scintillas were extremely low sensitivity speakers with low impedance and did require enormous power and stability. You don't feed these with Kwatts-capable amps, you will never get the best out of them. You may even like what you get from them with low or medium power amp.. It won't be their best.
 

Ron Resnick

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Excited by the Scintilla the previous weekend, I visited Henk since I had one day off for Easter.

I have now chosen the Scintilla over the Duetta and the Diva. So that leaves me with a Scintilla and a horn choice that I will close off in June

http://zero-distortion.org/apogee_duetta_scintilla/

View attachment 32088

I think this is your most introspective, and therefore most interesting, analysis thus far!

Regardless of speaker type I think that height is beneficial, and I agree with you that scale comes from height. And stage realism, I agree, comes from scale.

If vocals suggest a pure ribbon Apogee and piano suggests a horn, then I am afraid you might be back to your two-system plan.
 

bonzo75

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Bonz..

Yours are often interesting reads and threads. T

Our tastes are similar. I like planar and I , now, love horns.

At this point in my life I know I am all horns and their presentation is different from planar's.

If you decide to go toward a Scintilla, you can choose any amp , even a low wattage SET.. such amp will likely move the membrane and elicit sounds and you may even like those sounds. Do however keep this in mind at all time: The Scintillas were extremely low sensitivity speakers with low impedance and did require enormous power and stability. You don't feed these with Kwatts-capable amps, you will never get the best out of them. You may even like what you get from them with low or medium power amp.. It won't be their best.

Hi Frantz, I have never been one for SETs only. For apogees I have always advocated a strong class A high current high power amp, and SETs and OTLs are for horns only. I am speaker first, and amp to match the speaker kind of guy.

The only horns I wil lconsider over apogee Scintillas, Duettas, and Divas, are trios with bass horns and the horns I am considering. And I will take Full ranges and Grands over both of them. And the Yamamuras over FRs and Grands (equal, actually).

In these, The FRs, Grands, trios, and Yamamuras, are unobtainable for me (budget, space, etc). So it’s Scintillas or the bepokes.

And “panels” I would consider below other horns like Animas, Universum, etc
 

spiritofmusic

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Ked, I've never bought a component that
1- I wasn't able to audition at home
2- Wasn't sold as sale or return
3- Had such limited flexibility as to be not compatible w 99% of associated gear

Buying Scinnies fails all 3 counts
Who would buy a tt that could only be used w 1% of available arms, or buy an arm that could only accommodate 1% of carts, or a cart that had a loading that only 1% of phonos could handle it?
Let alone any of these components bought w'out knowing exactly which allied components within each 1% categories was the right match

Ked, this is not a criticism of you personally, I know you're too tenacious to make your journey and guidelines a failure
But to say that this way of doing things is really not out of the ordinary, or not unecesarily complex w a higher possible synergy failure rate is a tad silly too
 

bonzo75

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I would also put Stenheim, Alexandria X2S2, and YG above the other "panels" and "horns".
 

853guy

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Ked, I've never bought a component that
1- I wasn't able to audition at home
2- Wasn't sold as sale or return
3- Had such limited flexibility as to be not compatible w 99% of associated gear

And yet none of those things guarantees a holistically musical, engaging and intellectually stimulating system. In fact, in many cases, it has the potential to result in the exact opposite.

Just sayin'...

853guy
 

bonzo75

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Ked, I've never bought a component that
1- I wasn't able to audition at home
2- Wasn't sold as sale or return
3- Had such limited flexibility as to be not compatible w 99% of associated gear

Buying Scinnies fails all 3 counts
Who would buy a tt that could only be used w 1% of available arms, or buy an arm that could only accommodate 1% of carts, or a cart that had a loading that only 1% of phonos could handle it?
Let alone any of these components bought w'out knowing exactly which allied components within each 1% categories was the right match

Ked, this is not a criticism of you personally, I know you're too tenacious to make your journey and guidelines a failure
But to say that this way of doing things is really not out of the ordinary, or not unecesarily complex w a higher possible synergy failure rate is a tad silly too

No, I am actually saying the other way. I totally get speakers need to be auditioned. You take that risk, but the Scintilla especially, is capable of being sold, or you can do a deal with the horn maker that I will pay you 2k to transport and check, if it works I will give you the remaining, or you keep the 2k.

The amp has to be a process. If you decide today what amps you want - yes you can, I already heard the horns with great SETs - you can go that route, or with the amps you have, but we are all here to discover.

regarding who would buy a TT with 1% of arms - that's a silly question. AMG, Kronos, SPJ, all come with a standard arm that people stick to, though Kronos can be switched. Heard of Goldmund turntables?

So, riddle me this - if you like the Scinnie sound with a Krell, you are not going to buy it because it is restricted? Or are you going to buy the Krell because that's what you heard it with? I already heard the Scinnie with the Krell. Loved the sound. I have the option to change the Krell. I already know the minimum floor, I can only improve.
 

spiritofmusic

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Ked, I guess the whole "amp killer" thing is a well worn argument
If you decide the Scinnies rock yr world the most, you'll buy them, and will find at least half decent amps to go w them
And then focus on the best amps in future, maybe these SL Kraft 300s
You've got more willpower to do this than most
No, my interest in yr thread is just how you truly manage to make a final decision on bespoke horns v Scinnies
Obv synergy w amps will be somewhat easier to come by w those horns, but my q is how you really make that choice
Both the Scinnies and bespoke horns present somewhat contrasting presentations, both stellar in their way
Do the Scinnies (and FWIW all the other well set up Apogees you've heard) really stir yr heart and quicken yr pulse, as much as the bespoke horns and Trios? Or do they appeal more to yr head, in a kind of uber cerebral box ticking exercise?
Despite me being present in a less than ideal Divas demo, I could certainly hear their superior imaging, speed, dynamics, and scale
These factors made the Divas experience a breathless thrill ride more than any other spkr I've heard
But the sound felt more earthbound than the best horns I've heard, poss a sign of poor amp synergy or battery supply limiting the Spectrals
Whereas the excellent class leading horns I've heard, Trios and Liszts also had factors in setup limiting their potential, but their inherent "magic" shone thru more
But again, the Liszts when really badly matched amps wise did struggle badly too
 

bonzo75

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Ked, I guess the whole "amp killer" thing is a well worn argument
If you decide the Scinnies rock yr world the most, you'll buy them, and will find at least half decent amps to go w them
And then focus on the best amps in future, maybe these SL Kraft 300s
You've got more willpower to do this than most
No, my interest in yr thread is just how you truly manage to make a final decision on bespoke horns v Scinnies
Obv synergy w amps will be somewhat easier to come by w those horns, but my q is how you really make that choice
Both the Scinnies and bespoke horns present somewhat contrasting presentations, both stellar in their way
Do the Scinnies (and FWIW all the other well set up Apogees you've heard) really stir yr heart and quicken yr pulse, as much as the bespoke horns and Trios? Or do they appeal more to yr head, in a kind of uber cerebral box ticking exercise?
Despite me being present in a less than ideal Divas demo, I could certainly hear their superior imaging, speed, dynamics, and scale
These factors made the Divas experience a breathless thrill ride more than any other spkr I've heard
But the sound felt more earthbound than the best horns I've heard, poss a sign of poor amp synergy or battery supply limiting the Spectrals
Whereas the excellent class leading horns I've heard, Trios and Liszts also had factors in setup limiting their potential, but their inherent "magic" shone thru more
But again, the Liszts when really badly matched amps wise did struggle badly too

Lisztz wouldn't be remotely in my consideration set even with the money and the space. Maybe the Gammas etc could do it. Compromises to designs are compromises, and they can be heard, irrespective of the price.

Both Apogees and horns tick my heart too, question is which one does it more. frankly I love both to buy both, so I have to find a way to strike out buyer's remorse. "thrill" with apogees is the right word though. Something about them when heard right is thrilling. Exciting. And with pure ribbons the midrange. With FR and Grands, there is a higher suspense even during the softer parts because you know at some they will strike down upon thee with furious anger. Christoph, acousticsguru and I were discussing how the bass sounded great with Scintillas due to the lack of overhang - that makes it both tuneful and thrilling. With these horns there is a better flow and ebb, and bass is fantastic too. Even when you listen to live music, how you react to B's 9th and Scheherazade will be different from how you respond to arias and piano.
 

spiritofmusic

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Ok, I need a data point or map reference point please
We feel 180 apart on Animas, Liszts and Duos
But at Munich last yr together w Ron, me, you and him spent good time in the Cessaro Gammas room, and the smaller room w the one down from top of line Vivas horns
On the first day, the Cessaros really were lousy, just lumpy and vague
On the second or third day when we were all in the room at the same time, and yr Scheherazade was playing, IMHO, and Ron's, we really felt thrilled and uplifted
My caveat was w deep bass which seemed to be MIA, but that could have been a room thing
I really felt the sound was approaching what was possible from home audio
But correct me if I'm wrong, you remained generally underwhelmed, commenting on various issues perhaps linked to x'overs
In the Viva room, Ron was entranced, but both of us were left a bit cold, me mainly by the lack of guts and dynamics w the obv low playback volume
I remain perplexed you were so meh on the Gammas
And just where does the presentation of the best Apogees like the FRs and Scinnies you've heard compare and contrast to that Gammas' Scheherazade presentation, and while you're at it, how do the Trios and bespoke horns best those Gammas?
 

bonzo75

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I remained meh on gammas, that was a big system at Munich. Not right of me to diss it on that, if it was alright there, it might sound like trios or better in a proper set up. Both gammas and trios use bass horns as a major part of their system unlike Liszt which uses that enclosed box (like smaller Acapellas) which I don't like as it sounds like two separate speakers. Better to buy a Logan hybrid than a horn hybrid. I cannot be sure if Gammas were presenting a large sound just by virtue of being large or if they indeed had a magic, and at a show such a system will never sound properly integrated. That's why, all I said in the previous post was maybe one has to scale up to Gammas.

Scinnies and FR give better mids, Scinnies cannot give the same scale as these others as they are smaller and made for more medium rooms. Practically they will fit even my current room and if not optimal will definitely fit the next one. So they are the more practical choice over the horn. But I need to be at peace at what's the sonic decision.
 

Zero000

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Gammas? You mean these things I heard in 2011? Excuse the spelling...


I hated them TBH. No dynamics to speak of, low play volume in the room. I don't want to say rubbish but for me they were a massive let down.
 

Zero000

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Now if you want some good horns... coloured but good coloured, these may be the 4th best horns I've ever heard in a lot of ways...


Loved them.
 

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