Zero Distortion: Apogee Duetta, Scintilla, and tussle with horns

adyc

VIP/Donor
Jan 5, 2013
873
399
973
Ked,

Will you consider Spectron Musician? They claim their amps are stable at 0.1 ohms. Maybe not your taste as they are kind of class D. But worth considering.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,604
5,413
1,278
E. England
If the glare I heard on Divas w Spectral Class A and grey graininess I heard on Liszts w Mola Mola Class D is combined w cheaper Class D on Ked's Scinnies, he'll deffo spend more time travelling to sort an immediate amp upgrade LOL
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,442
13,471
2,710
London
Ked,

Will you consider Spectron Musician? They claim their amps are stable at 0.1 ohms. Maybe not your taste as they are kind of class D. But worth considering.

The guy who review the Analysis Audio loved the Spectron - think he liked it more than his VTL because it had more power, and did not think it gave up anything on other factors.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,604
5,413
1,278
E. England
Ked, was just chatting to Bill, and he was suggesting the Electrocompaniet Nemo as a contender
How would yr amp research go?
Get the Scinnies in and get base level amplification just good enough to go? Then formulate a shortlist of amps which on paper should work w the 1 Ohm demands that you travel to hear in different situations and different systems? And get one or two that sound consistently good across the board w analog and digital, different spkr loads, diff room acoustics presentations?
And then if one comes out as a consistent high performer whatever the demands, and is affordable, buy that one w a reasonable degree of confidence the Scinnies won't faze it?
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,986
978
Switzerland
Sure Christoph
I'm a dedicated tubes man
NATs SE2SE 70W/ch 211s using 1948 NOS GEs, NATs Utopia 2-box tubed pre
But I have been entranced by SS, as I said in prev post, 15W Bakoon Class A on Liszts
My issue is that it's not just a simple case of finding the amp that wks on the Scinnies
They're even more demanding than the Divas I heard, and Duettas
And the Divas I heard that were being thrashed by Spectral SS were audibly afflicted by glare and greyness, the worst aspects of a non tube sound
So, it's not just that I'd have to move fully to SS (which Im more ok w than a few months ago when I would argue w Ked I would rather die than ditch the NATs), it's that very few SS amps can satisfy the Scinnies, ramping up the complexity of getting the synergy right

Can we please have a list of amps that are tried and tested good sounding and more than powerful enough to mate w Apogees, Scinnies esp?

The Scinnies are not inherently harder to match in terms of the tonality of the amplifier because they have a subtly sculpted frequency response in comparison to other Apogees. Specifically, they have a dip in the presence region that helps with the soundstage depth and softens the upper range a bit that makes them more compatible with the sonic character of the kinds of amps they require.

Divas have a much flatter frequency response than Scintillas and are more linear out to the higher frequencies as well. There is no dip in the presence region to soften the "attack" from the electronics. So, in terms of electronics QUALITY, the Diva is more sensitive to getting it right even though it is clearly easier to drive than a Scintilla. The Diva works very well with PP tube amps as well as good Class A SS amps. Put an amp on there though with objectionable distortion characteristics and you will not like what you hear for the most part.

One of the better Apogee sounds I ever heard was a Conrad Johnson Evo2000 hybrid amp on a pair of Duetta Sigatures in a large room (100 m2). The speakers were 3 meters from the front wall and we were sitting about 3 1/2, 4 meters away. Pretty awesome.

Ironically, the best I ever heard an Apogee Grand sound was in Germany without the active Grand crossover or built-in amps working at all! We were using a Diva crossover on the panel, which is 3-way ribbon like the Diva, an Audio Research tube active xover for the panel/sub interface and two bridged Sphinx Project 14 MKIII amps for the panels and either a Krell KSA-100 or PS Audio HCA-100 amp for the subs. Source was a Sphinx Project 32 cd player (nice with PCM1704 DAC chips). IMO, the full Grand as done by Apogee suffers from an electronic sounding active Xover and the built-in amp, which fine for the subs, should not be used for anything else.

Divas can work well in a smaller room, as can all large dipoles, because of the radiation pattern and line source nature minimizes side wall and floor/ceiling reflections. The Diva is far closer to a true line source than the smaller Apogees.

Interestingly, I have yet to hear a FullRange setup that I actually liked. Even Rueddigers with two Sphinx Project 16s driving them was not very good or realistic sounding despite what Ked's opinion of that setup is. Tone color was off and the overall tonal balance was thin with a lot of leading edge but not much body.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,986
978
Switzerland
Will keep things on the simmer re the Rowen
As I've said, I'm really unsure how practical it is to travel to a max of 2-3 Scinnie installs, buy on the promise that there will be an amp synergy that works, and then take a punt on something like the Rowen that on paper should be a perfect match
As we know, the only paper that is reliable in our hobby is the credit card slip
I cannot think of any other luxury sector purchase where one would do things this way
I guess I don't have Ked's pioneering spirit


Rowens with Apogee Synergy (the latter day Scintilla) did not sound good in London when it was demoed. Thin and harsh.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,986
978
Switzerland
Ked, sorry to crash yr party
You proudly proclaim Scinnies the best thing since unsliced wholemeal bread, and I stomp about peddling the same skepticism on how to hear them and amp synergy concerns
Maybe I'll get a chance to hear them at Christoph's or up North at Kim's
I guess if they leave an indelible impression on me, the complexities of ownership will disappear and I'll rave about how perfect they are, as you're currently doing

If you come to Christoph's then you should stop by my place as well...only a bit over an hour away and hear some SET/horn action. Same for you Norman or Ked if/when you return again.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,986
978
Switzerland
Ked, was just chatting to Bill, and he was suggesting the Electrocompaniet Nemo as a contender
How would yr amp research go?
Get the Scinnies in and get base level amplification just good enough to go? Then formulate a shortlist of amps which on paper should work w the 1 Ohm demands that you travel to hear in different situations and different systems? And get one or two that sound consistently good across the board w analog and digital, different spkr loads, diff room acoustics presentations?
And then if one comes out as a consistent high performer whatever the demands, and is affordable, buy that one w a reasonable degree of confidence the Scinnies won't faze it?

Did a comparison of the Nemo with KR VA350i on a pair of top of the line Focal Utopia BE EMs and it was not contest the KR destroyed them sonically and the face of the dealer was only one of sadness to that realization.
 

Zero000

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2014
2,985
1,139
478
I wouldn't consider Scintilla due to its obvious problems when it comes to driving them. The viable option IMHO is to phone up Graz and ask him to build a pair of Synergys. Fundamentally a Scintilla type speaker with a cure WRT driveability.

That is a risk though especially when the design is unheard. We know two people in the UK with them but attempts to listen haven't paid off in a result.

Anyway, back to Ked's vinyl soundstage assertions. Completely correct. Switching from a Lampizator Level 7 to a Morch DP6/Transfiguration Orpheus/Michell GyroOrbe blows the soundstage wide open particularly WRT depth - both forward and backward in the z-plane.

However, I would very strongly recommend a phono stage with a subsonic filter as the bass panels can experience huge excursions due to record warps and ripples. 15Hz and below test signals into my Duetta Interstella shows the panel is still very active at this frequency and lower.

The other issue is the resolution of the true ribbon part of the speaker is so high you can clearly hear vinyl's limitations. For that reason, and that reason alone, you'd better have a top flight analogue set up. And even that may not be good enough - in my opinion.

I believe the reason the vinyl soundstage behaves as it does may in part be due to the poor S/N ratio of vinyl actually acting as dither. It is well know injecting dither into recordings enhances the sense of space and "air".
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,604
5,413
1,278
E. England
It's a date TBD
Thanks for the offer, and from Christoph too
My work diary really precludes me from too much travel atm, as I try to get a clinic off the ground from home, do the legwork re local contacts, and my additional travel for main business
I would v much like to do a little European tour to take in Holland w the PTP Solid 12 and Primary Control Kinea tts, Italy for the Torqueo tt, Christoph and you for Scinnies and horns, and the bespoke horns Ked is smitten by
Fwiw, this would be more useful for me than 3 days at Munich show
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,986
978
Switzerland
It's a date TBD
Thanks for the offer, and from Christoph too
My work diary really precludes me from too much travel atm, as I try to get a clinic off the ground from home, do the legwork re local contacts, and my additional travel for main business
I would v much like to do a little European tour to take in Holland w the PTP Solid 12 and Primary Control Kinea tts, Italy for the Torqueo tt, Christoph and you for Scinnies and horns, and the bespoke horns Ked is smitten by
Fwiw, this would be more useful for me than 3 days at Munich show

Well Christoph and I will both be in Munich if you are coming down.
 

Zero000

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2014
2,985
1,139
478
Rowens with Apogee Synergy (the latter day Scintilla) did not sound good in London when it was demoed. Thin and harsh.

I've had the Rowans in my lounge - the very same ones used at the London show. They are good amps, but nothing extraordinary.

Jon thought the Synergy crossovers at London were way off the mark. Quite a bit of work has been done on them since.
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
3,525
635
1,200

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
3,525
635
1,200
The guy who review the Analysis Audio loved the Spectron - think he liked it more than his VTL because it had more power, and did not think it gave up anything on other factors.

The Analysis guy makes the Arion amps (hybrid tube/class D), no?
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
3,525
635
1,200
If you come to Christoph's then you should stop by my place as well...only a bit over an hour away and hear some SET/horn action. Same for you Norman or Ked if/when you return again.

Thank you Sir, it would be my pleasure!
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,442
13,471
2,710
London

853guy

Active Member
Aug 14, 2013
1,161
10
38
Yes I don't like them

Hey Bonzo,

How about something with clipping power into 8 ohms reaching 586.5W at 1% THD (producing 29W in Class A), 1154W available into 4 ohms, 2255W into 2 ohms, and no less than 4.2kW into 1 ohm (equivalent to an output current of 64.7A), retailing for $9K US (though second-hand examples can be had for much less)...

Interested?

853guy
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,442
13,471
2,710
London
Hey Bonzo,

How about something with clipping power into 8 ohms reaching 586.5W at 1% THD (producing 29W in Class A), 1154W available into 4 ohms, 2255W into 2 ohms, and no less than 4.2kW into 1 ohm (equivalent to an output current of 64.7A), retailing for $9K US (though second-hand examples can be had for much less)...

Interested?

853guy

What is this, class A?
 

853guy

Active Member
Aug 14, 2013
1,161
10
38
What is this, class A?

Well, yes, but only for the first 29W at 8ohms. Given the Scintillas won't ever know what 8 ohms is like, it's probable you'll rarely be in Class A, but then, most other amps will struggle to stay in Class A at 1 ohm regardless (unless you spend Boulder money).
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,442
13,471
2,710
London
Well, yes, but only for the first 29W at 8ohms. Given the Scintillas won't ever know what 8 ohms is like, it's probable you'll rarely be in Class A, but then, most other amps will struggle to stay in Class A at 1 ohm regardless (unless you spend Boulder money).

Class A halves at each impedance drop. So half at 4 ohms, half at 2 ohms, half at 1ohm. You can get the first few initial watts in class A at 1 ohm if you start off higher.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing