I know the Anima extremely well and like it. I will come over. Actually I had suggested the Anima long back when you had the BD
Zero Distortion: Apogee Duetta, Scintilla, and tussle with horns
- Thread starter bonzo75
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I know the Anima extremely well and like it. I will come over. Actually I had suggested the Anima long back when you had the BD
Sure Christoph
I'm a dedicated tubes man
NATs SE2SE 70W/ch 211s using 1948 NOS GEs, NATs Utopia 2-box tubed pre
But I have been entranced by SS, as I said in prev post, 15W Bakoon Class A on Liszts
My issue is that it's not just a simple case of finding the amp that wks on the Scinnies
They're even more demanding than the Divas I heard, and Duettas
And the Divas I heard that were being thrashed by Spectral SS were audibly afflicted by glare and greyness, the worst aspects of a non tube sound
So, it's not just that I'd have to move fully to SS (which Im more ok w than a few months ago when I would argue w Ked I would rather die than ditch the NATs), it's that very few SS amps can satisfy the Scinnies, ramping up the complexity of getting the synergy right
Can we please have a list of amps that are tried and tested good sounding and more than powerful enough to mate w Apogees, Scinnies esp?
I'm a dedicated tubes man
NATs SE2SE 70W/ch 211s using 1948 NOS GEs, NATs Utopia 2-box tubed pre
But I have been entranced by SS, as I said in prev post, 15W Bakoon Class A on Liszts
My issue is that it's not just a simple case of finding the amp that wks on the Scinnies
They're even more demanding than the Divas I heard, and Duettas
And the Divas I heard that were being thrashed by Spectral SS were audibly afflicted by glare and greyness, the worst aspects of a non tube sound
So, it's not just that I'd have to move fully to SS (which Im more ok w than a few months ago when I would argue w Ked I would rather die than ditch the NATs), it's that very few SS amps can satisfy the Scinnies, ramping up the complexity of getting the synergy right
Can we please have a list of amps that are tried and tested good sounding and more than powerful enough to mate w Apogees, Scinnies esp?
I have resolved the "tube-SS" dilemma with my current Analysis Epsilons/active crossover in my big rig Pleasanton system with the NOS VFET amps from the day (Yamaha B2 and updated Sony TAN 8550) driven by mercury vapor rectified DHT 26 tube stages. After warmup, it sounds like ultra clean tubes, but still with great body and tone. I have never heard any other SS over the years that could ultimately woo me, otherwise, but the VFETS don't really sound like any other SS amp. The only other all tubed amplifier in that system now is tube rectified 300b that operates the foil tweeters.
The rebuilt Stage setup in Santa Cruz is still all tube.
VFETs would probably only work with some of the easier to drive Apogees ( VFETs demand 4 to 8 ohms) i.e. Stage, Studio Grand, Duettas, but definitely would not work with Scinnies without autoformers for impedance matching.
The rebuilt Stage setup in Santa Cruz is still all tube.
VFETs would probably only work with some of the easier to drive Apogees ( VFETs demand 4 to 8 ohms) i.e. Stage, Studio Grand, Duettas, but definitely would not work with Scinnies without autoformers for impedance matching.
Marc
I like your unusual car and find it very special (even though "my" oldtimer would be a Corvette C2 coupé) and I had a Barco 1208s for some years, great machine...
In your huge and very long room, why don't you opt for 2 systems? One horn based (the one Ked raves about) with your NAT SE2SE and one Dipole based with a pair of Lamm hybrid monos? Best of both worlds for the price of one pair of the higher up ZUs
I like your unusual car and find it very special (even though "my" oldtimer would be a Corvette C2 coupé) and I had a Barco 1208s for some years, great machine...
In your huge and very long room, why don't you opt for 2 systems? One horn based (the one Ked raves about) with your NAT SE2SE and one Dipole based with a pair of Lamm hybrid monos? Best of both worlds for the price of one pair of the higher up ZUs
That sounds interesting.
Do you know of some more VFET amps? I would like to try one...
The "twin system" concept sounds like fun
A bit like the guys w their multiple tts, arms and carts
(big wave to Dave DDK and Gian)
Just what music would I play on each?
Lamm hybrid monos REALLY are a good call for the Scinnie 1 Ohm models?
I thought it was WMD solid state all the way, a la Spectral, Krell, Gryphon, Burmester etc?
A bit like the guys w their multiple tts, arms and carts
(big wave to Dave DDK and Gian)
Just what music would I play on each?
Lamm hybrid monos REALLY are a good call for the Scinnie 1 Ohm models?
I thought it was WMD solid state all the way, a la Spectral, Krell, Gryphon, Burmester etc?
Btw Christoph, the new flagship Zu Experiences are sounding v special
Vivid Giya-like wood/composite resin molded monocoque cabinets to increase stiffness, but reduce wt (1.3x0.5x0.5m, 50kg each), Nano tech impregnated full range drivers 55Hz-12kHz again maxxing stiffness and lightness, twin 12" side firing subs down to 16Hz w nr 100dB eff to match full range drivers, and using First Watt Class A amps, one sub per spkr tuned for impact, one for tone, top of the range Radian Supertweeters to 20Hz+, Duelund caps, one each for low pass- and high pass-filters (no complex crossovers), 101dB eff/8 Ohms, $25-30k US
Vivid Giya-like wood/composite resin molded monocoque cabinets to increase stiffness, but reduce wt (1.3x0.5x0.5m, 50kg each), Nano tech impregnated full range drivers 55Hz-12kHz again maxxing stiffness and lightness, twin 12" side firing subs down to 16Hz w nr 100dB eff to match full range drivers, and using First Watt Class A amps, one sub per spkr tuned for impact, one for tone, top of the range Radian Supertweeters to 20Hz+, Duelund caps, one each for low pass- and high pass-filters (no complex crossovers), 101dB eff/8 Ohms, $25-30k US
Oh, didnt I tell you...ROWEN only sells in Switz and they are the audio Mid/high end market leader.
I dont think its discontinued, but could call and find out in the morning.
Edit: still there...see page 45. My bad, more like 10K gbp a pair. The pound fell a lot... http://dynavox.ch/guide17_d.pdf
Reviews are in German.
6moons blurb: http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/suisse2010/2.html
and
They even mention Scintilla. LoL http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/zurich09/6.html
That is still a crazy good price for such serious kit
Add a third when you factor in carriage, VAT
Alas, no export outside Switzerland
Next!
Add a third when you factor in carriage, VAT
Alas, no export outside Switzerland
Next!
No export, but they will sell it to you if you come here. Just no external warranty. Just plan a holiday by car. Lots of German and French do just that.
I had a yankee pal that considered it for Infinity IRS-Vs. I can help you arrange if you are serious.
Neg output impedance alone is worth it!
I had a yankee pal that considered it for Infinity IRS-Vs. I can help you arrange if you are serious.
Neg output impedance alone is worth it!
Amplimos, Maxonic and Digital Do Main are Japanese and/or modern variations of VFET (SIT) and are commercially available if you don't trust or want to rebuild an older Sony or Yamaha:
http://www.digital-do-main.com/ja/pdf/B-1a_Catalog(English).pdf
http://www.sibatech.co.jp/maxonic/amp.html
SIT and VFET are basically the same types of devices.
These brands offer higher power than the Nelson Pass SIT single ended which are limited to 10 watts.
A gentleman in Thailand offers a 20 watt Class A push pull VFET in Pass fascia sometimes on ebay. It utilizes old NOS Sony VFETs using Nelson Pass circuit configuration. That one probably goes up to at leas 60 watts transients in class AB when it leaves class A. I have one, and it sounds great, but driving them with directly heated triode preamp really adds some magic. To me, it sounds like an SET without the air gapped transformer, with dynamics of higher power SS but preserves tonality.
Will keep things on the simmer re the Rowen
As I've said, I'm really unsure how practical it is to travel to a max of 2-3 Scinnie installs, buy on the promise that there will be an amp synergy that works, and then take a punt on something like the Rowen that on paper should be a perfect match
As we know, the only paper that is reliable in our hobby is the credit card slip
I cannot think of any other luxury sector purchase where one would do things this way
I guess I don't have Ked's pioneering spirit
As I've said, I'm really unsure how practical it is to travel to a max of 2-3 Scinnie installs, buy on the promise that there will be an amp synergy that works, and then take a punt on something like the Rowen that on paper should be a perfect match
As we know, the only paper that is reliable in our hobby is the credit card slip
I cannot think of any other luxury sector purchase where one would do things this way
I guess I don't have Ked's pioneering spirit
CJ, I might be v interested in those SIT designs if I decide to finally go Zu Experiences in the end
Sean Casey of Zu is promoting that First Watt B4 for subs duties, but maybe the Digital Do-Main at 100W+ would be a better match in my 100 sq m room
Sean Casey of Zu is promoting that First Watt B4 for subs duties, but maybe the Digital Do-Main at 100W+ would be a better match in my 100 sq m room
I personally would be interested in more opinions about the DHT preamp/VFET-SIT amps from the audiophile galleries. I know that Srajan Ebaen raved about a DHT/Pass SIT combo, but I don't think I have ever heard anybody else try or comment on the pairing.
I personally really like it and think it is a great "hybrid" type pairing. Sounds to me much better than the hybrid MOSFET Ypsilons I have heard at shows that use tube rectified pentode driver stages for MOSFETs. I also think my Thai originated Pass knock off VFET sounds better than the Nelson Pass First Watt M2 which I also have.
I personally really like it and think it is a great "hybrid" type pairing. Sounds to me much better than the hybrid MOSFET Ypsilons I have heard at shows that use tube rectified pentode driver stages for MOSFETs. I also think my Thai originated Pass knock off VFET sounds better than the Nelson Pass First Watt M2 which I also have.
Does anyone know Brian Beck? I have tried to ping him from different forums but he doesn't seem active anymore http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ou-have-ever-owned/page26&p=218524#post218524
Ked, sorry to crash yr party
You proudly proclaim Scinnies the best thing since unsliced wholemeal bread, and I stomp about peddling the same skepticism on how to hear them and amp synergy concerns
Maybe I'll get a chance to hear them at Christoph's or up North at Kim's
I guess if they leave an indelible impression on me, the complexities of ownership will disappear and I'll rave about how perfect they are, as you're currently doing
You proudly proclaim Scinnies the best thing since unsliced wholemeal bread, and I stomp about peddling the same skepticism on how to hear them and amp synergy concerns
Maybe I'll get a chance to hear them at Christoph's or up North at Kim's
I guess if they leave an indelible impression on me, the complexities of ownership will disappear and I'll rave about how perfect they are, as you're currently doing
Dropping to 2 ohms for a second vs. steady 1-2 ohm load is going to be extremely different. And you're basically stuck with Class A/B higher negative feedback designs that weigh 150 lbs a piece. The Scintilla will require monoblocks of course stretching the budget.
I'm not saying its not worth it, but its a big commitment. And just wait to start amp swapping in your home, shipping large amps, etc.Although perhaps as a super low efficiency speaker, amps don't make as big of a difference tonality-wise. If so, get some digital H2O amps and call it a day. i believe they were designed for Apogee.
A couple of points. Amp swapping will happen in any case. With Scintillas it will be limited as - there are limited amps. With duettas, I will be swapping class A, AB, and tubes. An audiophile never stops auditioning until he hears out the competition. Lesser competition will actually mean lesser swaps. That said, if I were to buy Scintilla, I would already know how much different Krell KSA and the LAmm Hybrids do. I could even try the Electrocompaniet Nemo for cheap. And then upgrade to Symphonic Line Kraft following audition. If that works properly at 1 ohm I will rest there. And is not really expensive.
On your point "Although perhaps as a super low efficiency speaker, amps don't make as big of a difference tonality-wise." That's not entirely correct. I have heard Avantgarde class A 150w, Airtight 300b 9w, and Tom Evans on Trios. I heard Modwright, Aries Cerat Diana, Devialet, and 120k Trafomatic on Tune Audio Animas. I also heard various SETs, 14w to 80w, cheap integrateds as well, on the horns Universum. I always enjoyed these speakers, despite the amp. The difference was always the difference between a trio, Anima, and the Universum. I have also heard JBL 66000 with Accuphase, Jadis, Thrax, and a class D. I did not like it at all, nothing to do with the amps.
On the other hand, Apogees have been extremely sensitive to set up, how much of that is the amp, or the restore itself, I do not know. But many have sounded downright boring, and some have sounded superbly exciting. Also, the jump in SQ on moving to analog has been the highest with the Apogees IME...once when I moved to a Linn Lp12 on a Diva, and another time when it was the Acoustic Solid One on One (available used at 3 to 4k Eur), Kuzma 4p and Ortofon A90 in a 2k used SS phono (don't remember the brand, hadn't heard on it before). That was also on a Diva. The sound transformed from "have I made a mistake liking these speakers" to "Holy fuk now I know why I love them". The plane goes 3d, tonality, bass, dynamics, all jump up. It is possible that the amps in those cases, Cello biamped and Musical Fidelity 750w respectively, had to be balanced by the analog. I am not sure.
We all hear things very very differently
I've heard Cessaro Liszts first w Bakoon SS 15W/ch Class A, absolutely stellar, dripping w tone and emotion, hairs on my arms standing up
Then w Mola Mola Class D 700W/ch, just grey and boring
Then w Tron top of the range 35W 211s, slow, gloopy, uninteresting
W top tts, GP Monaco, and TW Black Knight, one w Weiss digital
No way could you even tell the Liszts had anything to offer w the latter two setups, the first (despite room node issues) left an indelibly deep positive impression on me
So I respectfully disagree w you on yr point in yr last post
Enjoyed yr definition of being an audiophile
You don't think it's a universal rule, do you?
The conclusion I draw is that w my less than stellar Animas and Divas experiences, it would be great to hear them both at least once in systems where the synergy w amps would show them in a better light
I've heard Cessaro Liszts first w Bakoon SS 15W/ch Class A, absolutely stellar, dripping w tone and emotion, hairs on my arms standing up
Then w Mola Mola Class D 700W/ch, just grey and boring
Then w Tron top of the range 35W 211s, slow, gloopy, uninteresting
W top tts, GP Monaco, and TW Black Knight, one w Weiss digital
No way could you even tell the Liszts had anything to offer w the latter two setups, the first (despite room node issues) left an indelibly deep positive impression on me
So I respectfully disagree w you on yr point in yr last post
Enjoyed yr definition of being an audiophile
You don't think it's a universal rule, do you?
The conclusion I draw is that w my less than stellar Animas and Divas experiences, it would be great to hear them both at least once in systems where the synergy w amps would show them in a better light
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Marc, you have had Hovland, Audio, and NATs all in the space of one year, including a Koda audition; Burmester power conditioner, couple of balanced powers, upgrades continuously on the cables and entreqs, and a room change and a large cost of cable/power set up. Plus fixing your room. Please have no doubts that whatever speaker you end up with, you will be rotating amps. Better to face it and embrace it than to deny it
You're right in that Ked, but no more extreme than many others here
Amp history
Roksan Caspian SS intgd 1997-2000
Bladelius SS intgd 2000-2005
Move to tubes for the first time w Hovland HP200 pre 2005-2015
Hovland Radia SS pwr 2005-2013
Move to SETs for the first time w Audion Black Shadow SETs 2013-2015
Replaced Hovland HP200 w Audion Quattro tube pre 2014-2015
Move over to NATs tube pre and pwr 2015-present
I would have one whole layer of amp upgrades less had I gone straight from Hovland to NATs bypassing Audions
I was v close, but the NATs were SO characterful, the Audions were an easier transition in to a whole tube amps set up
None of this means that I'm moving on
I would have to if I went Scinnies, but why would I when the NATs work SO well w my Zus and likely w horns?
Despite yr claim that we're addicted to change or having to have the best, yes that prob applies when you're striving for a sound or system, but doesn't always apply esp once you've settled
I actually didn't like the Magnetostat and Transmitter combo on Peter's Omegas, gave me no reason to strive to upgrade to them
And at my system performance point, I would have to spend so big to improve eg Trios, SGM or Kuzma, or go seriously left field eg Scinnies and monster amp, no choices are easy or affordable at this point
And unlike you, I've never bought anything in audio that I wasn't already sure was going to sound good in a current rig
I would never have bought my prev Roksan Ojan, ProAc Futures 2 or Zu Definitions spkrs on the basis I might find at a future date amps that would work w them and settle currently on a less than stellar synergy
Amp history
Roksan Caspian SS intgd 1997-2000
Bladelius SS intgd 2000-2005
Move to tubes for the first time w Hovland HP200 pre 2005-2015
Hovland Radia SS pwr 2005-2013
Move to SETs for the first time w Audion Black Shadow SETs 2013-2015
Replaced Hovland HP200 w Audion Quattro tube pre 2014-2015
Move over to NATs tube pre and pwr 2015-present
I would have one whole layer of amp upgrades less had I gone straight from Hovland to NATs bypassing Audions
I was v close, but the NATs were SO characterful, the Audions were an easier transition in to a whole tube amps set up
None of this means that I'm moving on
I would have to if I went Scinnies, but why would I when the NATs work SO well w my Zus and likely w horns?
Despite yr claim that we're addicted to change or having to have the best, yes that prob applies when you're striving for a sound or system, but doesn't always apply esp once you've settled
I actually didn't like the Magnetostat and Transmitter combo on Peter's Omegas, gave me no reason to strive to upgrade to them
And at my system performance point, I would have to spend so big to improve eg Trios, SGM or Kuzma, or go seriously left field eg Scinnies and monster amp, no choices are easy or affordable at this point
And unlike you, I've never bought anything in audio that I wasn't already sure was going to sound good in a current rig
I would never have bought my prev Roksan Ojan, ProAc Futures 2 or Zu Definitions spkrs on the basis I might find at a future date amps that would work w them and settle currently on a less than stellar synergy
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