Zero Distortion: Apogee Duetta, Scintilla, and tussle with horns

cjfrbw · Apr 19, 2017

I know that Graz a few years ago was offering pure aluminum (not plastic or kapton backed) ribbons for Duetta midranges, to give them a bit of that pure magic compared with Scinnies. I think I remember individuals saying the result was very nice, but of course, required crossover modification and I can't remember how they affected impedance.

I remember you could walk by Scinnies and see the high frequency ribbon wave around from your body's air movement.

bonzo75 · Apr 19, 2017

LL21 said:
Yes...i nearly got them many years ago and thought for their size, they are phenomenally good. I actually think Reverendo should consider them.

Actually he can do duetta. If you read my write up I placed them close in to test.

LL21 · Apr 19, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Actually he can do duetta. If you read my write up I placed them close in to test.

yes, I did read that which was interesting. But when Reverendo said 1m was a lot of space, i was thinking he might look at an even smaller Apogee that takes up less cubic volume in the room (though i question whether the Stage could go any closer to the wall than a Duetta...what do you think?)

manisandher · Apr 19, 2017

Ked, you're welcome to come and listen to my Animas being fed by a pair of Thöress amps with Elrog 300B tubes. Probably best to wait a while if you are interested though - I've just received the amps back from Reinhard who adjusted them for the ER300Bs, and my Phasure NOS1a will be going in for an upgrade very soon. It'll be a good few weeks before everything settles down I suspect.

Mani.

cjfrbw · Apr 19, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Stages are small. And they can't be modded for some reason.

I still listen to my Stages in Santa Cruz. I changed the ribbons out, but the original two sided mylar had problems with impedance variations and weren't washed of acid very well so they changed a lot with age and varied from side to side. There used to be a guy who had a supply of the dual sided mylar bass ribbons for Stage, can't remember but he was kind of temperamental, he bought out USA Apogee parts from a warehouse after Apogee went bankrupt.

My replacement Stage Bass ribbon is a lower impedance single sided Graz bass panel, and the replacement midrange one of Graz midrange ribbons. I use them with an active crossover. They still sound great that way. The Studio Grands also had dual sided mylar bass panels, and I always wanted to hear one but never had the chance.

I still think that the original Stage is one of the best sounding speakers ever. My rebuilt ones sound great, too, but not quite like the original, which were a creamy delight. When I ran my original Stages with active crossover, subwoofer and tubes, everybody who heard them were melted.

christoph · Apr 19, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Stages are small. And they can't be modded for some reason.

There are no replacement bass panels for the Stages and they will sooner or later develop the dreaded buzz from degraded damping foam.
For the Studio Grand/Studio Ribbon Array are also no replacement bass panels available but the SG/SRA used a different foam that is not degrading and therefore are not prone to develop the dreaded buzz. SG/SRA can survive with the original bass panel as long as one is careful

I love the SG/SRA

I think Ked needs to hear them in my third room that I'm about to set up. Smaller than the living room, bigger than the upstairs room. About the size of Michaels room.

christoph · Apr 19, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Yes muralman1 on forums loves it with his scintilla

Vince was the only one who liked the H2O amps on the Scintillas

He had wore down old degraded Scinnies with the H2O amps and loved it. Later he had refurbed Scinnies and they were linear and showed the nastiness of those amps and he decided to get rid of the refurbed Scinnies rather than the weird amps

christoph · Apr 19, 2017

cjfrbw said:
The Studio Grands also had dual sided mylar bass panels, and I always wanted to hear one but never had the chance.

You could visit either Joseph (Manley) in Jamaica or me here in the Principality of Liechtenstein. Those are the only two properly working ones I know of. I was contacted by a German guy who said that he bought a pair, but I don't know the condition of his pair...

I replaced the mr-tw ribbons to the newest KLM 5 version what made a huge difference

spiritofmusic · Apr 19, 2017

So Christoph, what is yr answer to the age-old debate re amps and Apogees, esp "amp killer" 1 Ohm Scintillas?
Ked's view, right or wrong, is that the Apogee-SS "package" is what matters, trumping whether SETs are better amps than SS overall
I used to vehemently disagree w him, but my mind is cast back to 3 occasions where I heard Cessaro Liszts horns, first w 15W Class A Bakoon SS, then w 35W Class A Tron 211s, finally w 700W Class D Mola Molas
The Bakoon SS was truly excellent on the Liszts, and for two hours I did not miss tubes for one moment
Two hours w the Tron 211s made me yearn for SS
Two hours w the Molas made me wish I was having root canal work done at the dentist
So, I'm open to reconsidering moving away from tubes, IF, and it's a big if, there is an organic, earthy, tone dense powerhouse out there that can do Class A to cope w the rigours of Scintillas requirements
It's just not conceivable that I buy Scintillas, pop any old amp that has endless headroom, and hope for the best w future amp choices
I've already heard Divas, and the glare of Spectals SS cast a highly unattractive grey cast over proceedings
Molas Class D would be even worse

wisnon · Apr 19, 2017

christoph said:
You could visit either Joseph (Manley) in Jamaica or me here in the Principality of Liechtenstein. Those are the only two properly working ones I know of. I was contacted by a German guy who said that he bought a pair, but I don't know the condition of his pair...

I replaced the mr-tw ribbons to the newest KLM 5 version what made a huge difference

Hey, I didnt get to hear those on my visit!!!

You need to link me with Joseph, so that on my next trip home I can check out his system. His father was very famous, by the way!

wisnon · Apr 19, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
So Christoph, what is yr answer to the age-old debate re amps and Apogees, esp "amp killer" 1 Ohm Scintillas?
Ked's view, right or wrong, is that the Apogee-SS "package" is what matters, trumping whether SETs are better amps than SS overall
I used to vehemently disagree w him, but my mind is cast back to 3 occasions where I heard Cessaro Liszts horns, first w 15W Class A Bakoon SS, then w 35W Class A Tron 211s, finally w 700W Class D Mola Molas
The Bakoon SS was truly excellent on the Liszts, and for two hours I did not miss tubes for one moment
Two hours w the Tron 211s made me yearn for SS
Two hours w the Molas made me wish I was having root canal work done at the dentist ??
So, I'm open to reconsidering moving away from tubes, IF, and it's a big if, there is an organic, earthy, tone dense powerhouse out there that can do Class A to cope w the rigours of Scintillas requirements
It's just not conceivable that I buy Scintillas, pop any old amp that has endless headroom, and hope for the best w future amp choices
I've already heard Divas, and the glare of Spectals SS cast a highly unattractive grey cast over proceedings
Molas Class D would be even worse

Mi Lord, would these fit your bill? http://rowen.ch/en/data/rowen_one.php

Mono balanced or 2-channel. Tremendous power and sovereignty are accompanied by superb resolution ability and strong control. This power amp (output amp) has any loudspeaker under its complete control. The tremendously voltage robust power potential with 420W RMS at 4 Ohms and 4000W peak music power output at 0.5 Ohms results from the full symmetric operation of this double mono block (Absolute Balanced Amplifier). The overcompensated damping factor of the amplifier (negative impedance) eliminates dynamic loss through cables and passive crossovers frequency separating filters inside the speakers.

christoph · Apr 19, 2017

Norman, have you heard them yourself? Those have to be really bad

spiritofmusic · Apr 19, 2017

Not "Mi Lord", but "M'Lord"
C'mon now, social deference has to be JUST right, dontcha know?!
Will check out yr link

wisnon · Apr 19, 2017

The Rowens, sure!! Badass amps.
Fribourg outfit. Even been there and had a great 90 minute convo with the owner...Anton Aebischer and his son Yvo.

6moons covered them at the Swiss show in like 2010 and 2011.

wisnon · Apr 19, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Not "Mi Lord", but "M'Lord"
C'mon now, social deference has to be JUST right, dontcha know?!
Will check out yr link

Actually, you are lucky you didn't get the full M'LUD! LoL

christoph · Apr 19, 2017

wisnon said:
Hey, I didnt get to hear those on my visit!!!

I told you several times you need to come again to my place

You need to link me with Joseph, so that on my next trip home I can check out his system. His father was very famous, by the way!

Joseph is a true gentleman. I will gladly do that.

cjfrbw · Apr 19, 2017

I drove up to Sacramento and I heard Vince's older Scinnies with the H20, and I liked them, very nice. However, he was pretty obnoxious and militant about needing to believe that he had the "best sound" in the world. He thought that anybody that heard his setup would think so, too, so he tended to ruffle feathers in that regard. I never heard the rebuilt ones.

I liked them, but still preferred my Stages/tubes at the time with my setup. I couldn't get past the solid state sound then.

Original Stages with tubes are still my mental model for upper bass and lower midrange beauty, especially with analog. I have managed to model that sound a bit into my present setup, but still quite not the same as the original Stage.

Studio Grands do seem to be the most elusive to hear, there was a guy in Sacramento who had a pristine pair set up, but I never drove up to hear.

If they sound like "big Stages", I always thought that they might be my dream Apogee.

wisnon · Apr 19, 2017

christoph said:
I told you several times you need to come again to my place

Joseph is a true gentleman. I will gladly do that.

I am hoping for sometime this summer. Its always a blast in The Principality: FL.

spiritofmusic · Apr 19, 2017

M'Lud is good too
Time I got the respect I deserve
I always loved the line in Superman 2 when the President kneels before Terence Stamp and sighs "Oh God" and the reply comes back "Not God, Zod"

Rowen ONE
Looks suitably badass
But it's discontinued, no real reviews or examples to buy s/h

So, here's the rub
Have to travel to hear them
And only in 2 user's homes
A 3rd at some pt in the UK in future
A 4th at Henk, but in a room too big to fully show them of their best
And no immediate affordable amp suggested
The prospective UK Scinnie owner is upgrading to Gryphon Mephistos, and even w these he remains unsure if they'll fit the bill
Now, I'm a sucker for choosing tech that is so called out of date but outperforms many modern day alternatives (1968 Citroen DS 21 as everyday transport, and 85kg 1.3m X 1.3m X 0.6m gargantuan Barco 1209S CRT projector), so maybe I'm the PERFECT customer for challenging discontinued Apogees
But at least w my car and projector there were numerous opportunities to audition in UK and tech guys on hand
Scinnies and a s/h appropriate but discontinued amp seems even for me a step too challenging
Esp w do little chance to trial Scinnies w the amp I would end up with
Over to Ked to tell me I'm looking down the telescope from the wrong end

christoph · Apr 19, 2017

Hi Marc

spiritofmusic said:
So Christoph, what is yr answer to the age-old debate re amps and Apogees, esp "amp killer" 1 Ohm Scintillas?
Ked's view, right or wrong, is that the Apogee-SS "package" is what matters, trumping whether SETs are better amps than SS overall
I used to vehemently disagree w him, but my mind is cast back to 3 occasions where I heard Cessaro Liszts horns, first w 15W Class A Bakoon SS, then w 35W Class A Tron 211s, finally w 700W Class D Mola Molas
The Bakoon SS was truly excellent on the Liszts, and for two hours I did not miss tubes for one moment
Two hours w the Tron 211s made me yearn for SS
Two hours w the Molas made me wish I was having root canal work done at the dentist
So, I'm open to reconsidering moving away from tubes, IF, and it's a big if, there is an organic, earthy, tone dense powerhouse out there that can do Class A to cope w the rigours of Scintillas requirements
It's just not conceivable that I buy Scintillas, pop any old amp that has endless headroom, and hope for the best w future amp choices
I've already heard Divas, and the glare of Spectals SS cast a highly unattractive grey cast over proceedings
Molas Class D would be even worse

I'm really glad you're as well not too fond (euphemism of the year

) of the mola molas. There seems to be a spark of hope that we have some similarities in listening preference

The Scinnies (hardest to drive Apogee) with the Lamm M1.1 hybrid monos are quite a match in heaven but then again, so are the Studio Grands (easiest to drive Apogee) with the Kronzilla. I would have kept both but my friend Rolf wanted the Scinnies so badly that I sold them to him (my wife still quite can forgive me for that because the Scinnies were her favorite speakers). Both combinations absolutely have their appeal.
Ked will come back to Liechtenstein and we will schlepp the Lamms to Rolfs place and hook them up to the Scinnies to make them shine even more.
Not every SET is excellent (few are really) and not every SS is bad (quite a few are

) so it's "just" about finding good examples from each camp for the right combination? It's all about synergy...

Zero Distortion: Apogee Duetta, Scintilla, and tussle with horns

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