Zero Distortion: Apogee Duetta, Scintilla, and tussle with horns

KeithR · Apr 19, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Actually, better in 2017 - more options apart from only Krell. If you read Salvatore's High end audio blog (and I have no idea how credible or not he is, but he definitely is on this point), he puts Apogees in class B because of the amps of that era, and says that now with better amps it should move to class A. He then starts a new thread on the Definitives, and despite having not heard them, says this modern day sensitive apogee will be the best speaker today. My point is, with better class A SS amps these days, and better framed, better crossover component parts, and better ribbons, Apogees are more relevant then ever.

Scintillas that only a few amps can drive on the market, properly, are like quite a limiting speaker. Considering amp/speaker synergy is critical to me, I just don't get the appeal of a 1-2 ohm speaker. Class A SS isn't going to work, nor any tube.

Agree there was nothing special about those old Krells. Says a lot that Dan has changed his circuits entirely in his new line. I'm not sure Momentums could drive a Scintilla though.

asiufy · Apr 19, 2017

Can't see why the Momentum monos wouldn't drive 1-2 ohms all day. That's what they were made for. And if 1600W/2 ohms isn't enough, there's the cheaper Progression monos, that'll do 2000W/2 ohms...

That said, it IS odd (and limiting) to have a speaker with these characteristics...

bonzo75 · Apr 19, 2017

asiufy said:
Can't see why the Momentum monos wouldn't drive 1-2 ohms all day. That's what they were made for. And if 1600W/2 ohms isn't enough, there's the cheaper Progression monos, that'll do 2000W/2 ohms...

That said, it IS odd (and limiting) to have a speaker with these characteristics...

I love the Momentums. Too expensive at this stage though, but if I go down that route, and if I do find a desire in the future to upgrade in amps, they will be a top consideration

bonzo75 · Apr 19, 2017

KeithR said:
Scintillas that only a few amps can drive on the market, properly, are like quite a limiting speaker. Considering amp/speaker synergy is critical to me, I just don't get the appeal of a 1-2 ohm speaker. Class A SS isn't going to work, nor any tube.

Agree there was nothing special about those old Krells. Says a lot that Dan has changed his circuits entirely in his new line. I'm not sure Momentums could drive a Scintilla though.

Well you haven't heard the scintilla. Plenty of sh*t 100db 8ohm speakers out there. It is quite possible for someone who doesn't like 1 or 2 ohm speakers to think Scintilla is the best speaker in the world.

bonzo75 · Apr 19, 2017

Believe High Fidelity said:
I am betting 100% that you end up going with a horn. Deep down and reading your travels the tone presented is that you want to go with a panel, but doing so is going to eliminate your ability to use a SET amplifier (which I know how fond of them you are) or any comparable PP designs.

With a horn you can still get everything you want in a front end and even indulge on the OTL's you love so much.

I am betting the farm on this one....

If I go with the horn it will not be because of the SET or OTL. I consider them a package. And I am not presenting the tone that I want to go with a panel over a horn. Apogees by nature are more research-oriented (some set-ups sound downright boring), while the horn is an easier research – I just need to go listen to them next time and I will know. I just have to decide which of these now presses more pleasure points as I move across the music I want to listen to, without restrictions, and does not make me feel like I should have bought the other one. I can enjoy either one, that’s for sure, just have to get comfortable eliminating remorse

bonzo75 · Apr 19, 2017

Keith, btw, there was a 4 ohm Scintilla, which was discontinued because it did not have the magic. Also, many modern speakers, Wilsons, Focals, Logans, have drops to pretty low impedances, while Scintillas have a steady 1 -2 ohm, and no drop

KeithR · Apr 19, 2017

asiufy said:
Can't see why the Momentum monos wouldn't drive 1-2 ohms all day. That's what they were made for. And if 1600W/2 ohms isn't enough, there's the cheaper Progression monos, that'll do 2000W/2 ohms...

That said, it IS odd (and limiting) to have a speaker with these characteristics...

I think heat dissipation will be the issue with the Momentum on such a challenging steady load w/ its copper heatsinks, but would be interesting to hear from Dan on the subject. Clearly the Progression would be different.

I believe the Scintilla actually hits a 1/2 ohm at one point

bonzo75 · Apr 19, 2017

Bob carver owns scintilla, thinks it is the best speaker ever made, and his 300w Black Beauties with KT 150 are designed to drive them at 1 ohm, doubling down to 2400

KeithR · Apr 19, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Keith, btw, there was a 4 ohm Scintilla, which was discontinued because it did not have the magic. Also, many modern speakers, Wilsons, Focals, Logans, have drops to pretty low impedances, while Scintillas have a steady 1 -2 ohm, and no drop

Dropping to 2 ohms for a second vs. steady 1-2 ohm load is going to be extremely different. And you're basically stuck with Class A/B higher negative feedback designs that weigh 150 lbs a piece. The Scintilla will require monoblocks of course stretching the budget.

I'm not saying its not worth it, but its a big commitment. And just wait to start amp swapping in your home, shipping large amps, etc.

Although perhaps as a super low efficiency speaker, amps don't make as big of a difference tonality-wise. If so, get some digital H2O amps and call it a day. i believe they were designed for Apogee.

KeithR · Apr 19, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Bob carver owns scintilla, thinks it is the best speaker ever made, and his 300w Black Beauties with KT 150 are designed to drive them at 1 ohm, doubling down to 2400

Better than his "Amazing Line Source" - LOL. He's the used car salesman of audio.

cjfrbw · Apr 19, 2017

Yup, lots of Scinnie love on the Apogee forums in the day. However, for those with the space, it seemed that the Scinnie lovers always eventually migrated to FR.

Divas are a strange case. I have never heard a Diva, but for those who have massaged them properly with amps, crossovers and rooms, they think they are contenders for best of breed, just ultra finicky.

spiritofmusic · Apr 19, 2017

Keith, you don't know Ked's capacity for ongoing immersion
He will quite happily buy these spkrs and get them working w anything that won't trip the apartment block he lives in
From that working basis he'll then sweat it out w as many amp a/b demos as needed to find the perfect synergy/match
For me or you that would prove uber challenging, for Ked it's the thrill of the chase
It's definitely a marathon for him, not a sprint

Diapason · Apr 19, 2017

1-2 ohm speakers may indeed be ridiculous in 2017, but the 2017 state of the art has a ridiculous price tag! I'm not close to being in a position to make these decisions myself, but if it led to sonic nirvana I'd take the amp limitations in a heartbeat.

*IF* it led to sonic nirvana...

spiritofmusic · Apr 19, 2017

CJ, there's a guy in the UK who is migrating to Scintillas
He and I heard Divas recently, and he heard no reason to change his choice

bonzo75 · Apr 19, 2017

KeithR said:
Dropping to 2 ohms for a second vs. steady 1-2 ohm load is going to be extremely different. And you're basically stuck with Class A/B higher negative feedback designs that weigh 150 lbs a piece. The Scintilla will require monoblocks of course stretching the budget.

I'm not saying its not worth it, but its a big commitment. And just wait to start amp swapping in your home, shipping large amps, etc. Although perhaps as a super low efficiency speaker, amps don't make as big of a difference tonality-wise. If so, get some digital H2O amps and call it a day. i believe they were designed for Apogee.

Yes muralman1 on forums loves it with his scintilla

bonzo75 · Apr 19, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
CJ, there's a guy in the UK who is migrating to Scintillas
He and I heard Divas recently, and he heard no reason to change his choice

He had Sashas. He heard the duetta with his Gryphon Antileon and was so hooked he bought a Mephisto, and now is getting the scintilla, all within a year.

bonzo75 · Apr 19, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
CJ, there's a guy in the UK who is migrating to Scintillas
He and I heard Divas recently, and he heard no reason to change his choice

There are plenty.voting for scintilla as best speaker let alone best apogee speaker. You can search easily.

I.understand migrating to.FR, but I will never have a 30*20 type room and wouldn't want it otherwise

LL21 · Apr 19, 2017

Very interesting thread. Big fan of Apogee Stage. Would love to hear the Full Ranges properly setup someday just to hear how far the scale-thing/bass-thing goes with the magic of the Apogee that I experienced with the Stages and have not forgotten in all these years.

bonzo75 · Apr 19, 2017

LL21 said:
Very interesting thread. Big fan of Apogee Stage. Would love to hear the Full Ranges properly setup someday just to hear how far the scale-thing/bass-thing goes with the magic of the Apogee that I experienced with the Stages and have not forgotten in all these years.

Stages are small. And they can't be modded for some reason.

LL21 · Apr 19, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Stages are small. And they can't be modded for some reason.

Yes...i nearly got them many years ago and thought for their size, they are phenomenally good. I actually think Reverendo should consider them.

Zero Distortion: Apogee Duetta, Scintilla, and tussle with horns

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