Zero Distortion: Apogee Duetta, Scintilla, and tussle with horns

manisandher · Apr 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Mani, I drove the 75 miles to hear the Animas with a lot of anticipation based on Ked's approval for them
For me, they just failed 100% on engagement and were extremely recording dependent
This was a demo that I DEFINITELY needed a drink afterwards LOL
I've heard a few poor horns demos in my time, but whatever the faults I've always been engaged, if not necessarily convinced
Not so the Animas

I believe you.

I first heard the Animas at Jack's place three and a half years ago, and ended up ordering a pair of BD-Design horns instead. But I obviously didn't take into account exactly what happened in that demo, else I would have explored the Animas further. The Animas were hooked up to Jack's SS amp, and I didn't really like the sound. I had taken my Berning Siegfried 300B with me, and preferred the sound of the Animas with this - but still not blown away. Jack then hooked up another valve amp (Traformatic, I think), and the sound changed drastically again. It obviously still did't rock my boat because as I said, I went and ordered a different pair of horns.

But what I should have taken away from that first demo was that the Animas (like any high-efficiency speaker) need to be mated very carefully with the amp. When I decided to give the Animas another go late last year, I took my Consonance monos with Elrog 211 tubes with me. Again, we started with Jack's SS amp, and again the sound was kind of 'meh'. But switching to the 211 monos, it was totally transformed. Massively interesting and engaging. And the decision from there was easy for me, albeit with taking a massive hit on selling my BD horns.

But the Animas may still not be for everyone. I guess we're all attracted to different things.

FWIW, I heard the Cessaro Gammas at Munich a few years ago and was totally underwhelmed - totally grey and colourless to my ears. Mind you, not as bad as the Spectral/Magico setup I also heard there.

Mani.

spiritofmusic · Apr 23, 2017

Mani, I get that
Seems a bit of a crapshoot w them
So, the dealer doesn't have them sounding of their best for the potential Animas-tube loving customer (Jack loves the Modwright)
Even bringing one change of amps and tubes doesn't solve their meh-ness
But a third change transforms them
I don't doubt yr experience, but
1- I can't easily lug 130kg of amps to him (not enough space in my car)
2- Jack didn't encourage me to do this
3- I've never gone to a demo where the sound was so not me I considered bringing my own gear
4- yr comments on the deepest octaves doesn't bode well for my interest in them
£35k and not full range? No thanks

manisandher · Apr 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
4- yr comments on the deepest octaves doesn't bode well for my interest in them
£35k and not full range? No thanks

Yep, not a lot going on below 40Hz or so with the Animas (without a sub). Mind you, I'd rather have this than have the utter mess that virtually all the speakers I've ever heard seem to make of the 20-40Hz range

Mani.

spiritofmusic · Apr 23, 2017

Sure, I get that
But it's a bit of a deal breaker for me
Like all gear that's disappointed me, I'd love to give 'em a second chance
Do you know of anyone in the UK w a well sorted set up?
I'd go to Frank, but I know Devialet on Animas will shred my nerves!

manisandher · Apr 23, 2017

You're welcome to come and take a listen to mine. Even as things are, I'm 100% confident that your experience of a 'bleached sound' will be totally reversed. But I think it'd be better to wait until I get my DAC upgraded with a beefier output stage to more effectively drive the Thöress amps. This should happen in the next few weeks.

Edit: the DAC upgrade is supposed to improve the bass performance significantly, so might make the Animas sound more like true full rangers.

Mani.

Zero000 · Apr 23, 2017

FWIW I think the Anima is really amp sensitive too. More so than a pair of Duettas in fact. Glorius playing classical with top of the line Aries Cerat monos. Awful with a Modwright pre/power combo.

So different, in fact, I'd wonder how cross genre capable they are. If classical was my bag, I'd be seriously interested. It isn't my bag, though. And I know I need deep bass. Mandatory for a lot of the stuff I listen to.

That said, I won't pretend I have had enough time to really evaluate them properly, but their first Munich appearance in 2011 really impressed me. Not so keen on the Marvel, but it is an easy listen. Never heard the Primes.

spiritofmusic · Apr 23, 2017

Mani and Justin, PMs sent
Let me know when good to come up to you
Justin, I'll liase w you re Utopia collection, maybe visit will happen 3rd time lucky
In return, you're both v welcome to visit here from July when hopefully my S'gauge cart is returned and Im back up to speed
Mani, are yr BD Swings the ones I've read about online w the swivelling drivers to allow in-out positioning of mid horns, w the elaborately engineered cabinet?
I'm sure Greg of G Point was selling a pr some time back
Can you sum them up? And why you moved?

Zero000 · Apr 23, 2017

morricab said:
What is your preamp now?

I went from an EAR868PL to a Cayin C-100. Chinese. And I prefer it to the vastly more expensive EAR. It is a modified Cayin SC-10 running a quad of Tesla E88CC cross swords and a pair of Chatham rectifiers.

There's a pretty good look at it here. First off I am playing a chap's horn system via a YouTube video. So it's horns through Apogees LOL, Then I play the original via TIDAL at about 1:23. The camera mic misses the deep bass but you can see the panels doing it. Just a bit of fun really.

manisandher · Apr 23, 2017

User211 said:
If classical was my bag, I'd be seriously interested. It isn't my bag, though. And I know I need deep bass. Mandatory for a lot of the stuff I listen to.

The best bass I've ever heard bar none is from my previous BD-Design Orelo speakers. -3dB at 17.6Hz, with 3% THD below 100Hz playing at 88dBSPL:

The bass sounds totally phenomenal at the new owner's place, but unfortunately I never got it to work so well in my room.

Mani.

manisandher · Apr 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Mani, are yr BD Swings the ones I've read about online w the swivelling drivers to allow in-out positioning of mid horns, w the elaborately engineered cabinet?

Yeah. I had the Swings before I bought the Orelos:

Mani.

bonzo75 · Apr 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Mani and Justin, PMs sent
Let me know when good to come up to you
Justin, I'll liase w you re Utopia collection, maybe visit will happen 3rd time lucky
In return, you're both v welcome to visit here from July when hopefully my S'gauge cart is returned and Im back up to speed
Mani, are yr BD Swings the ones I've read about online w the swivelling drivers to allow in-out positioning of mid horns, w the elaborately engineered cabinet?
I'm sure Greg of G Point was selling a pr some time back
Can you sum them up? And why you moved?

Mani did not have the same swings as the ones Greg was selling. His were similar to the ones I heard at Berts and Phasure's. Looking at the pic Jack had, I think his were a bit smaller, but could be mistaken. These were bigger than the swings, more planar like, open baffle

spiritofmusic · Apr 23, 2017

So, what's the deal on those BDs/Swings?
Design wise, I love 'em
Sound?

bonzo75 · Apr 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
So, what's the deal on those BDs/Swings?
Design wise, I love 'em
Sound?

I found them open, planar like soundstage. I thought they had less decay and mid bass than I would have liked, but that could have been the SS amp driving them. The system was designed to be extremely flexible to go active or with amp of your choice, and low noise. I think if someone worked with Bert it could be tuned to your setting.

manisandher · Apr 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
So, what's the deal on those BDs/Swings?
Design wise, I love 'em
Sound?

Oh, probably the nicest looking speakers I've ever had (though I do like the look of my Animas). I just could't get the active single 15 inch bass driver to integrate with the 114dB/W mid/high horn. Only the bass level was adjustable and nothing else. No matter what I tried, I just couldn't get it to work properly. Whereas in the Orelos, you have a Hypex DSP unit which allows you to do pretty much what you want with the 3x 15 inch active bass drivers in each speaker.

I'm kind of embarrassed to say that I only paid £5k for the Swings used. And they were in mint condition. I probably should have persevered with them and tried a few other options. In many ways, they actually worked better in my room than the Orelos. And certainly looked nicer, to my eyes. If you ever get a chance to buy a pair of £5k, I'd say take it!

Mani.

spiritofmusic · Apr 23, 2017

Mani, they were on my radar for a while
I mean the Swings, not the Orelos
I am REALLY satisfied w my Zus, esp w upstick from Duelunds and Lundahls, amazing synergy w NATs, opening up w Sablon Reservas, true extension and control w my dedicated lines and balanced pwr, and critically their ability to be much more even, extended, balanced, airy and fast in my much more neutral and moderately damped excellent 18x50 acoustic
Now I have a great set of data points here and at Barry's super Duos/45s/SGM set up, I can visit other systems and know immed what I like/am missing, and what I don't/am not

morricab · Apr 23, 2017

bonzo75 said:
The Lampi amps aren't good enough

You've tried them? Where?

manisandher · Apr 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
I am REALLY satisfied w my Zus, esp w upstick from Duelunds and Lundahls...

Would love to come and take a listen at some point. Not sure if you know, but I used to own a T3 Pro arm too. Loved it with high-compliance carts, but couldn't get it to work well with my other carts. Was very close to ordering the Salvation too.

I had a pair of Druids in my office system a while ago, but didn't get on with them at all. Sold them on eBay and was embarrassed when demoing them to the buyer when he came to collect them. Was absolutely amazed when he said they sounded great - and he wasn't just being polite.

Wonderful, crazy hobby!

Mani.

bonzo75 · Apr 23, 2017

morricab said:
You've tried them? Where?

Plenty of times, universum and a DIY. I am referring to the older GM 70. Not the new 211 which I haven't tried

spiritofmusic · Apr 23, 2017

Mani, the hobby IS crazy
It's amazing Zu sold ANY spkrs in the early days, show after show was poor
Sean then started to spend more time getting the amps choice and room treatments side right, plus his amazing turn as Club DJ spinning great wax, and interest picked up
They do require v careful setup, and their hump in FR thru lower mids/upper bass is both blessing and curse
Blessing in that it fleshes out the mids and IMHO makes them hypnotic and involving, curse in that they can sound uneven and sucked out in the wrong room
I have the top of the line Definitions 4s w twin full range drivers, and Class D pwrd down firing subs, and they stretch down to 16 Hz
I am TRULY blessed w my new room
Despite my online tetchiness w Ked, he was spot on w criticism of my last space, and I'd like to think he'd give my new acoustic the thumbs up
I have a newly found appreciation of transparency, staging, imaging and microdynamics, but I do know my Zus are bested by a lot of horns and I'm sure Apogees in these respects
For me, any move from Zus to horns or ribbons would have to be predicated on maintaining the natural warmth and tonal density of my Zus, ie their essential humanity and cognitive ease, w the factors that I know from listening to Duos, and what I gleaned from the Divas experience, ie speed, adrenaline, see thru realism
And to be able to be fully expressive at low vol levels, across genres

Ron Resnick · Apr 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
So, what's the deal on those BDs/Swings?
Design wise, I love 'em
Sound?

+1

I cannot believe we keep discovering new speakers!

Kedar -- the next time we are in The Netherlands we should check out BD-Design!

Zero Distortion: Apogee Duetta, Scintilla, and tussle with horns

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Site Co-Owner, Administrator

Similar threads