Zero Distortion: Apogee Duetta, Scintilla, and tussle with horns

I'm due to pick up my serviced NATs Utopia from Peter in the next few wks
Maybe pop over to you en route?

On backward route? I'd really like to hear the Utopia.

Can do
Just unsure of date
Will keep tabs w you

OK looking forward to it.

Don't feel under any pressure to like them. You have my full permission to slag them off, or praise them as you see fit. Be as objective as you can but above all be honest about what you think.

Justin, I'm pretty diplomatic tbh when visiting to listen
Guys here expend a lot of effort and passion to get the sound they want
And then tinker endlessly
You're no exception, Apogees really demanding a bit of a perfectionist approach
There's a good possibility it won't float my boat, the mire of wading thru Apogee related complexity, and the sound having to be resolutely iron grip SS, is not the direction I've gone in w medium powered tubes/high eff spkrs/zero crossovers
But despite my less than stellar experience w Divas recently, there were lots of things I really did like incl live music realism speed and jump factor, articulate airy bass, and staging/imaging
I'd really love to see if a well established synergistic system like yours w well balanced Duettas can replicate to a reasonable extent these traits, but give me what was lacking in the Divas presentation ie texture, tone, depth, palpability, believability
Will I hear something of the tonal density I get from my NATs/Zus and the dynamics and presence of Blue58's 45 tube amps/AG Duos horns? That would be a fascinating outcome
Or will I prefer the sound in a more bombastic, or detailed, or cerebral way?
I'll do my best to leave preconceptions here in Norfolk

Well at least you'll get to hear valve and solid state options in the same session.

Had a good session last night. An album by Shulman - ALive. The sort of material that for me just gels with Apogees. It is on TIDAL, but oddly not Spotify. Sadly the rest of his material doesn't seem to live up to ALive, which I think is a class act.

Maybe Kedar will get out of bed the right way tomorrow. Here's hoping.

Justin, I think our musical tastes align more than Ked's
There's nothing I love more than Scheherazade, Planets Suite, Romeo And Juliet, Pictures etc, but a spkr has to do more than acoustic tone and dynamics
It's also got to carry an electronic dance line, overwhelm the room w 70s Fuzz bass, show a LOT of cheesiness w 80s pop, somehow make Adele 25 sound even half enjoyable, make a silk purse out of the sow's ear that is 70s prog and fusion, bring to life brickwalled 90s and 00s grunge and alt
As well as sound exemplary w London Grammar, the Foos, Laura Mvula, Porcupine Tree, aforementioned classical, Sinatra, Ella, Miles, Coltrane etc
You get my meaning?

What no reggae?
LoL

spiritofmusic said:

Ked, not sure what you're objecting to?
So, you are two Apogee fans in the UK, you can count the total number in this green and pleasant isle on the fingers of two hands, and I can't rely on you to agree at all, or have mutual data points? Really?
Justin, potential Apogee ownership is a kind of hybrid thought expt/"what if" scenario that in my case always leads to one logical conclusion, the one you've just stated
On the one hand, we have Ked who having discovered how much he loves them, and is of the "nothing is too much trouble" camp
They're great, affordable, so buy 'em
Can live w any amp that just about does the job, and then churn thru amp variations until you hit on the right one, w the added thrill that Scintillas are the most fussy of all
On the other hand we have your point of view, based on long experience, that Apogee ownership demands really complex choices, you can't be sure of anything, even the ostensibly more "straightfwd" Duettas are a bitch to get right, let alone the true bitch, Scinnies
And even when you're getting it right, they will test yr mental health
So here's my challenge
I would love a list of tried and tested amp choices for Apogees, and Scinnies in particular
Not amps that could work, or might work, or should work, or work on paper
No, amps that have been tested in the field w modern day Apogee restorations
We know the amps that work w horns, w box spkrs, w stats
But I still have no idea which are proven thru user experience to absolutely match up well w Apogees, especially Scintillas
There are a lot of posts that say "have you tried this?", "this could work", "this should work"
What amps are brilliant w Apogees and Scinnies esp?
Seems a risky strategy

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It isn't really that complicated. Get a good hybrid ( CJ Evo 2000, Sphinx PJ 14 or 16, Lamm M1.1,1.2, etc.) or push pull triode (Vac 70/70, Lamm ML1.1, ASL Cadenza, etc.) or high power SET and Divas or Duetta Sigs (good original or refurb) or Studio Grands and be done. If you go Scinnies then Lamm M1.1 are a good bet or Sphinx PJ16 (good luck finding one). A tube amp with a 1 ohm tap with 100 watts will work too (Music Reference for example).

OR you can stay the route you are now but better...

User211 said:

On backward route? I'd really like to hear the Utopia.

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What is your preamp now?

spiritofmusic said:

Justin, I think our musical tastes align more than Ked's
There's nothing I love more than Scheherazade, Planets Suite, Romeo And Juliet, Pictures etc, but a spkr has to do more than acoustic tone and dynamics
It's also got to carry an electronic dance line, overwhelm the room w 70s Fuzz bass, show a LOT of cheesiness w 80s pop, somehow make Adele 25 sound even half enjoyable, make a silk purse out of the sow's ear that is 70s prog and fusion, bring to life brickwalled 90s and 00s grunge and alt
As well as sound exemplary w London Grammar, the Foos, Laura Mvula, Porcupine Tree, aforementioned classical, Sinatra, Ella, Miles, Coltrane etc
You get my meaning?

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Are you kidding? Yes Album and Fragile sound great!

Oh sure Brad
Esp Steve Wilson's restorations
Topographic Oceans is absolutely stellar on the new 4cd remaster/remix
I have a lot of classic prog on Japanese vinyl, and the level of warmth, space and dynamics can be stellar
You haven't experienced Close To The Edge or Led Zep 3 unless you go Japanese wax
But prog could suffer from 70s toppy production methods
My Zus are v tolerant of many recordings, tubes certainly add a lot of humanity, texture and verve into proceedings
As do Blue58's Duos off the SGM server, where so much classic material sounds great off Tidal, upscaled to dsd512 w HQ Player
"Yes" and "Time And A Word" have no business sounding so good on digital
My long term references for good sound are my NATs/Zus and Barry's 45 tube amps/AG Duos, both systems forgiving, textured, airy and human, the Duos better at dynamics and depth, the Zus better at tone density and ability to wring listenability out of flat, brickwalled recordings
Currently using for preamp either Audion Quattro dual mono linestage or Hovland HP200

Please guys, don't all jump on me re Zus
They get v little love from the crowd here
They can be parochial sounding, and not do the audiophile checklist
But years of fine tuning, in my system at least, has made them stellar
This has meant using tubes, but of the meaty NATs variety, organic Sablon cables, Duelund caps to low- and high-pass filters and Lundahl transformers in the built-in Hypex sub amps
I'm a sucker for their tone dense full range drivers presentation that fleshes out the sound
But they certainly don't do depth, transparency and microdynamics as well as the very best

spiritofmusic said:

Please guys, don't all jump on me re Zus
They get v little love from the crowd here
They can be parochial sounding, and not do the audiophile checklist
But years of fine tuning, in my system at least, has made them stellar
This has meant using tubes, but of the meaty NATs variety, organic Sablon cables, Duelund caps to low- and high-pass filters and Lundahl transformers in the built-in Hypex sub amps
I'm a sucker for their tone dense full range drivers presentation that fleshes out the sound
But they certainly don't do depth, transparency and microdynamics as well as the very best

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Marc that's exactly the point. The setups that I have heard mated to Zus have been reasonable to very good amps and sources and still they have left me underwhelmed so if you have taken your Zus to a much, much better place by getting around their constraints that is great. I don't doubt you absolutely love the sound of your setup because of your clear stress about finding something to replace them. Given your music preferences I'm still unsure horns are the best choice for you.

When it comes to ribbons no type of speaker I have heard have been so revealing of the associated gear and infrastructure upstream than full panel ribbons.

Every ribbon setup I have heard be it Apogee, Audio Analysis or Magnepan has been utterly unique. That is the fun and the challenge with ribbons. Getting the gear you build around them exactly right.

Ive heard seven different Maggie 20.7 configurations and the level of success has been a significantly big range from good to extraordinary.

Dipoles with the immediate speed of ribbons let you completely hear the room, just how well the speakers are dialled is usually the difference between good and great alone, all the gear, every change of cable is easier to identify outcome, every type of resonance configuration that you try becomes obvious and easy to evaluate, any changes come through as clear as day and this makes ribbon panels great at helping define what components and system infrastructure actually sound like. It's why I figure many reviewers have had ribbon panels as reference. Anyone who loves working on refining a setup can fall in love with ribbons especially. The obvious difference with Scintillas is that only a certain number of amps need apply.

Horns are different beasts completely in my experience and lead you to a completely different pathway both musically and also in your setup choices. I'd never make a judgement on any horn from hearing it with a SS amp or before hearing it with triodes and especially SET. 300b are the best match I heard for Animas and I have also heard Bakoon plus quite a few other SS as well as plenty of valves amps and preamps with them in three different rooms. Mani's Thoress 300Bs with his Animas would probably be extraordinary... and SET OTL might even then be the ultimate potential trip with full sized horns.

I like pretty much the same music Marc does (70s prog rock/fusion), that's actually my first "musical love", and I have gobs of really obscure stuff in that style. If you think the classics (Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, etc) are poorly recorded, wait until you're digging some bolivian prog from 1974.

That said, I disagree with Tao's idea that horns are not ideal for this kind of music. Much on the contrary. With multiple setups in the store, the most memorable sessions for proggy stuff was always our old Avantgarde Duo 2.2 and either Audiopax tube amps, or the darTZeel LHC-208 SS amp.


cheers,
alex

spiritofmusic said:

... although this is preferable to the stark bleached tone of the Animas...

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I've tried a number of amps with my Animas, and with most they've sounded quite edgy, and yeah, perhaps with a 'bleached tone'. I initially thought it was that these amps were all SS, but then I tried a pair of Lampi PSE amps, and really didn't like what I heard either. However, with my current SET amps, I'm getting the most satisfying sound I've ever managed to achieve in this hobby. Much of the bottom octave is pretty much non-existent in the Animas, which may be a show-stopper for some (though a decent sub is always a possibility). It doesn't bother me in the least because what the Animas do across the rest of the range is so appealing, to my ears. One of the most striking features is the sheer depth of the stage - tiny events taking place right at the back of the recording venue that I've never noticed before because other stuff seems to dominate so much.

I'll be at Munich again this year (haven't been for quite a while) and look forward to hearing anything there that is as pleasurable as I currently find the Animas.

Mani.

the sound of Tao said:

Mani's Thoress 300Bs with his Animas would probably be extraordinary...

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To my ears they are. But I can imagine others wanting a different sound.

Mani.

Mani, I drove the 75 miles to hear the Animas with a lot of anticipation based on Ked's approval for them
For me, they just failed 100% on engagement and were extremely recording dependent
This was a demo that I DEFINITELY needed a drink afterwards LOL
I've heard a few poor horns demos in my time, but whatever the faults I've always been engaged, if not necessarily convinced
Not so the Animas
Sorry Tao, maybe if I heard them with a really good pr of SETs
But at Munich, w the Pulse subs and what must have been excellent Traformatic tubes, the warmth and engagement was better, but what IMHO was an inability to lock down timing on rock was really evident
Ked loves rock on them, so they encapsulate this hobby in a nutshell

Alex, 100% agree w you re the Duos
My good friend Blue58 runs a totally stellar pr of Duos Omegas off home-made 45 tube amps, SGM server/T&A Dac8, dedicated spurs/lines, all Sablon Reservas cabling
I've heard all the criticisms of Duos having dissociated bass, and just playing at being horns compared to "proper" horns
Well, on the journey from Audio Aero cdp to the SGM, non Sablon to Sablon, the lines going in, and RBs under gear, and listening on dozens of visits to music from Ella to K Bush, Ryan Adams to Yes to Tull to Rush to London Grammar to Porcupine Tree, Scheherazade to Planets to Brandenberg Concertos, they just nail it
The only horns I've heard that work across all genres, are revealing AND warm, do space AND timing, and yes, sound bloody great on material they should struggle with ie prog and fusion
Delicate when needed, muscular when needed, always above average, often "knock yr socks off" stellar
Now, I have listened to horns in the same week after a Duos demo w proper BassHorn output where the Duos' cone woofers kick in (Cessaro Liszts), and yes, coming back to the Duos, one can hear the join to the woofers
But we're talking about £100k horns v £30k ones
I can imagine Trios w Basshorns would truly float my boat, but £70-80k not kicking about
And now I've heard Divas, not of their best, but w potential that I could pick up on, and hopefully soon Justin's Duettas and maybe Kim's Scinnies in time