Why does Vinyl sourced from Digital Masters sound so SUBLIME and GROOVY :) ? Algorithm exist?

caesar

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I am a huge fan of vinyl ripped to digital. Imagine a record from the late 50s or 60s or 70s, touched by human hand only 2-3 times, only to professionally rip it to digital, eliminating much surface noise and stylus microphonics. When done by the right people with very expensive equipment, results are sublime. But I have never been a format warrior - I am fortunate to be able to get into the blissful "state of flow" of music, regardless of the format.

Yet, with more non-audiophiles in the world purchasing records, audiophiles are beneficiaries of many records that are the result of digital mastering that gets transferred to vinyl. And this stuff sounds FANTASTIC! Even hard core vinyl guys like Fremer and "Sterile" Jon Valin admit to liking this stuff.

Does anyone understand what is going on or why that is? Has anyone figured out an algorithm to apply vinyl sound to regular digital?

Most DACs come with so many filters that are useless to most people (and appeal only to the most obsessive souls). Wouldn't it be cool to be able to press a single button on a DAC and have a vinyl flavor for all digital?
 

microstrip

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I am a huge fan of vinyl ripped to digital. Imagine a record from the late 50s or 60s or 70s, touched by human hand only 2-3 times, only to professionally rip it to digital, eliminating much surface noise and stylus microphonics. When done by the right people with very expensive equipment, results are sublime. But I have never been a format warrior - I am fortunate to be able to get into the blissful "state of flow" of music, regardless of the format.

Yet, with more non-audiophiles in the world purchasing records, audiophiles are beneficiaries of many records that are the result of digital mastering that gets transferred to vinyl. And this stuff sounds FANTASTIC! Even hard core vinyl guys like Fremer and "Sterile" Jon Valin admit to liking this stuff.

Does anyone understand what is going on or why that is? Has anyone figured out an algorithm to apply vinyl sound to regular digital?

Most DACs come with so many filters that are useless to most people (and appeal only to the most obsessive souls). Wouldn't it be cool to be able to press a single button on a DAC and have a vinyl flavor for all digital?

Caesar,

IMHO you must separate ripped vinyl from digital sourced vinyl in a thread - otherwise it will be a confusing debate!

Can I ask what is the priority of this thread before posting?
 

caesar

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Caesar,

IMHO you must separate ripped vinyl from digital sourced vinyl in a thread - otherwise it will be a confusing debate!

Can I ask what is the priority of this thread before posting?

Hi Microstrip,
Don't mean to engender confusion - let's focus on digital sourced vinyl and why it sounds so groovy
 

microstrip

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Hi Microstrip,
Don't mean to engender confusion - let's focus on digital sourced vinyl and why it sounds so groovy

IMHO it is mainly a question of lifestyle for most consumers. A few audiophiles get digital vinyl because of the better mastering associated to some releases or because their vinyl playback system sounds better than their digital. And a few others get it because they think they are getting all analog vinyl ...
 

Folsom

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Digitally recorded music put on vinyl might have better mastering, and also you skip needing a superb DAC. The transfer to analog has benefits from the negation of digital signature, subjective vinyl noise, superior phono preamps, etc, lots of possibilities.
 

ddk

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There's plenty of analog master converted to digital that suffers from digititus when compared to the vinyl product from that same master tape! Personally I don't have the problems that you mention "eliminating much surface noise and stylus microphonics" and the only reason I'd convert analog to digital is to make it portable which given the amount of music available online I found it an exercise in futility...

david
 

Ken Newton

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Dec 11, 2012
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...Yet, with more non-audiophiles in the world purchasing records, audiophiles are beneficiaries of many records that are the result of digital mastering that gets transferred to vinyl. And this stuff sounds FANTASTIC! Even hard core vinyl guys like Fremer and "Sterile" Jon Valin admit to liking this stuff.

Does anyone understand what is going on or why that is? Has anyone figured out an algorithm to apply vinyl sound to regular digital?

I've occasionally the same effect via some Telarc and Philips digital recordings released on viny between 1979 and 1983. That was prior to CD's commercial release in 1983. Those sound of those albums provided me with great anticipation for CD. In fact, the very fisrt CD I purchased was a release of one of those digitally mastered vinyl albums...I absolutely detested the CD version when I listened to it.

As for the technical cause, I'm uncertain. Perhaps, the groove noise produced by vinyl acts to strongly dither the digital master during vinyl replay. It's also been suggested elsewhere that low frequency groove noise is perceived by the ear as hall ambience. Perhaps, that is why CD is often perceived as dry or dead sounding compared to vinyl. However that's only speculation.
 

cjfrbw

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Apr 20, 2010
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Some do and some don't. A lot of digitally mastered LPs are quite good.

Stereophile had an article a few years ago about some digital recording engineers who published their final masters on vinyl because they believed that hi rez digital is best represented by vinyl prints better than digital prints going through any number of different digital playback media. They also believed the frequency range and tonal character of vinyl better served the hi rez digital.

Also, digital masters, as is probably true of all masters, probably sound best when played back on the recording equipment that made them. Digital masters, taken straight to a vinyl cutting head from the machines that produced them, apparently can emulate the original mastering product quite well. The observation has been made that digital, rather than perfection, actually becomes more brittle sounding through generational copying, printing and playback through dissimilar digital playback systems compared to vinyl.

I can't say any of this is true or untrue, but I don't have any objection to well mastered digital played back on a vinyl record, there are a lot of good ones.
 

hvbias

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Jun 22, 2012
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New England area
I am a huge fan of vinyl ripped to digital. Imagine a record from the late 50s or 60s or 70s, touched by human hand only 2-3 times, only to professionally rip it to digital, eliminating much surface noise and stylus microphonics. When done by the right people with very expensive equipment, results are sublime. But I have never been a format warrior - I am fortunate to be able to get into the blissful "state of flow" of music, regardless of the format.

Yet, with more non-audiophiles in the world purchasing records, audiophiles are beneficiaries of many records that are the result of digital mastering that gets transferred to vinyl. And this stuff sounds FANTASTIC! Even hard core vinyl guys like Fremer and "Sterile" Jon Valin admit to liking this stuff.

Does anyone understand what is going on or why that is? Has anyone figured out an algorithm to apply vinyl sound to regular digital?

Most DACs come with so many filters that are useless to most people (and appeal only to the most obsessive souls). Wouldn't it be cool to be able to press a single button on a DAC and have a vinyl flavor for all digital?

I believe that Fremer likes it for the coloration that vinyl medium adds? I don't think he has ever said he would choose digitally sourced vinyl over an all analog pressing.
 

microstrip

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(...) Also, digital masters, as is probably true of all masters, probably sound best when played back on the recording equipment that made them. (...)

Never heard before such absolute statement concerning digital files. Can you elaborate on it?
 

Ron Resnick

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There's plenty of analog master converted to digital that suffers from digititus when compared to the vinyl product from that same master tape! Personally I don't have the problems that you mention "eliminating much surface noise and stylus microphonics" and the only reason I'd convert analog to digital is to make it portable which given the amount of music available online I found it an exercise in futility...

david

+1

Just because an LP made from a digital recording sounds good, it does not mean that it would not sound better were it made from an analogue recording.
 

Sa-dono

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Dec 29, 2016
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I believe that Fremer likes it for the coloration that vinyl medium adds? I don't think he has ever said he would choose digitally sourced vinyl over an all analog pressing.

He has on one of his Analog Planet comparisons. That said, the digitally sourced vinyl was a remaster.
 

Fiddle Faddle

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I've occasionally the same effect via some Telarc and Philips digital recordings released on viny between 1979 and 1983. That was prior to CD's commercial release in 1983. Those sound of those albums provided me with great anticipation for CD. In fact, the very fisrt CD I purchased was a release of one of those digitally mastered vinyl albums...I absolutely detested the CD version when I listened to it.

As for the technical cause, I'm uncertain. Perhaps, the groove noise produced by vinyl acts to strongly dither the digital master during vinyl replay. It's also been suggested elsewhere that low frequency groove noise is perceived by the ear as hall ambience. Perhaps, that is why CD is often perceived as dry or dead sounding compared to vinyl. However that's only speculation.

Well of course with the Telarc vinyl versus the CDs, they had the ability to cut from the 16/50 master, whereas they had to downsample that for CD - and that was in the days when downsampling to 44.1 was fraught with great difficulties, even nothwithstanding the notion (admittedly not shared by all audiophiles) that 44.1 is compromised to begin with. Nothing much back then sounded good when remastering for CD - in my opinion it wasn't until dCS made a hardware converter (dCS 972) that results we'd (or at least I) consider acceptable today were possible. Same with Philips Classics - they also used Soundstream which explains wh the digital vinyl sounded excellent. As I have pointed out on these forums elsewhere, arguably the biggest issue facing CD is the mere whole-tone worth of bandwidth above 20 Khz available for the low pass filter. It's a completely different sonic story at a 50 Khz sampling rate where it becomes (almost) possible to have a completely transparent filter. Infact Telarc started using a modified Sony PCM recorder that operated at 44.1 Khz from the mid 1980s. I assume they did this because they obtained better results for their CD releases than continuing to use the Soundstream equipment with it's superior (but commercially and technically awkward at the time) sample rate.

As for digital vinyl sounding great, well I have to stick my head out here and say that it often doesn't sound any better (at best) than the pure digital equivalent unless the remastering engineer is doing specific things in order to subjectively improve the sound (such as applying EQ). Yes, they generally use high quality converters that are externally clocked which will often result in a better sounding analogue input to the lathe than what a typical audiophile may have at home, but in my experience, digital vinyl cut from a 16/44.1 master really doesn't sound that good unless that master sounds good to begin with. And it certainly doesn't sound as good as the digital master unless as mentioned, some fiddling around is done to make it subjectively better sounding.

Once they start to use recently produced 24/96 masters made by world class engineers, the vinyl will sound great, assuming of course the 24/96 does as well. Abbey Road are doing classical vinyl in this way - if they don't already have the 24/96 master from Universal, for example, they will make one when they do the vinyl release and you'll often find the same title come out on 24/96 download as well. I'm seeing this with Warner Classics, for example.

But I don't really think there is any technical reason that digital vinyl sounds great. I can attest that any vinyl title I own myself where I have two versions of the exact same recording (one from the analogue master and one from the digital one), the analogue title wins hands-down. Infact, even the Speakers Corner Mercury releases from some years back sound better than the later reissues made using the 16/44.1 files, and those Speakers Corner titles were made with second generation tapes (the 16./44.1 masters from first generation tapes). So you could say that by imposing a digital step in vinyl production, it potentially does more damage than a second generation tape does, though I feel that only applies if 16/44.1 sources are used. With the latest releases from studios such as Abbey Road, I wouldn't even know if there were any digital steps involved or not.

Of course, with digitally sourced vinyl, many avenues are available to remastering engineers that are not available in the analogue domain, but that in itself could be the subject of a very long thread!
 

microstrip

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(...) Just because an LP made from a digital recording sounds good, it does not mean that it would not sound better were it made from an analogue recording.

IMHO the non-answered question is wether the same digital file played through a SOTA DAC sounds better than the vinyl!
 

Fiddle Faddle

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+1

Just because an LP made from a digital recording sounds good, it does not mean that it would not sound better were it made from an analogue recording.

That is very true indeed, however these days I also see the opposite - where using the analogue source results in an inferior one. For no other reason than the analogue tape is ageing and has sustained damage and / or wear. The ORG release of Mercury SR90006 is a good example. The master tape had deteriorated so badly between 1991 and 2014 that the vinyl reissue was horrible. Well, it was good - till you got to all the bits where half the oxide had shed off the tape so it sounded like a valve amplifier where you'd accidentally knocked the plug out of the mains socket!! Compare it to the pristine sounding CD released in 1991 or thereabouts.

A few of the recent RCA Living Stereo reissues from Analogue Productions show similar tape deterioration in some spots compared to when the digital versions were issued in the 90s and then in the early 2000s. Luckily for those reissues, however, any random tape deterioration was more than made up for by the superior sound quality elsewhere.
 

ddk

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IMHO the non-answered question is wether the same digital file played through a SOTA DAC sounds better than the vinyl!

OP question was about needle drops and the answer is a no. It's a digitized copy of the vinyl playback, SOTA DAC or not won't change what the file is.

david
 

Ken Newton

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..As for digital vinyl sounding great, well I have to stick my head out here and say that it often doesn't sound any better (at best) than the pure digital equivalent unless the remastering engineer is doing specific things in order to subjectively improve the sound (such as applying EQ).

I didn't intend to suggest that digital vinyl sounded great, but that it sounded significantly better than the CD versions later released. The most obvious difference I heard was a relative lack of fatigue with digital vinyl, while the CD format versions were the very definition of listening fatigue and annoyance.
 

microstrip

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Hi Microstrip,
Don't mean to engender confusion - let's focus on digital sourced vinyl and why it sounds so groovy

OP question was about needle drops and the answer is a no. It's a digitized copy of the vinyl playback, SOTA DAC or not won't change what the file is.

david

No, OP was not clear and Caeasar was clear - it seems his main interest is not the needle drops.


So I think my question was valid:

IMHO the non-answered question is wether the same digital file played through a SOTA DAC sounds better than the vinyl!
 

ddk

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No, OP was not clear and Caeasar was clear - it seems his main interest is not the needle drops.


So I think my question was valid:

IMHO the non-answered question is wether the same digital file played through a SOTA DAC sounds better than the vinyl!

You're right Micro, I was reading the first part of the OP and missed the last section when I replied.

I don't hear an advantage listening to vinyl when the master is digital vs the CD of the same master, in fact I actually tend to like the CD over the vinyl and my DAC is no longer SOTA while my analog is. I won't even buy the vinyl if I know that it's from a digital recording and stick with the CD.

david
 

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