Discrete Ladder DAC price implosion

Ric Schultz · Apr 9, 2017

Joe Whip said:
Having heard a fully modified Gustard and an stock and a modded Yggy (damped) on the same system, I have to respectfully disagree.

You could not have heard a fully modded Gustard Pro DAC (by me) as no on has one yet (first two shipping next week). Maybe you heard the first version with the older not as good DACs and one of my older (not as good) mods. Yesterdays toy is not todays toy. Also the usb input on the Gustards is not particularly good....best to use modded Singxer with it. The Pro is a completely different animal and I have spent 2 months retweaking the mods, as it is so dang revealing. There is also another more expensive DAC (still less than Yggy) that recently slayed (right out of the box stone cold) a modded Yggy. The owner of both is now putting the Yggy back to stock and you will see it on audiogon any day now. He will post when he sells his Yggy. The Yggy is so yesterday! Here is a link to the modded Yggy: http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Schiit_mod.html

Al M. · Apr 9, 2017

Ric Schultz said:
You could not have heard a fully modded Gustard Pro DAC (by me) as no on has one yet (first two shipping next week). Maybe you heard the first version with the older not as good DACs and one of my older (not as good) mods. Yesterdays toy is not todays toy. Also the usb input on the Gustards is not particularly good....best to use modded Singxer with it. The Pro is a completely different animal and I have spent 2 months retweaking the mods, as it is so dang revealing. There is also another more expensive DAC (still less than Yggy) that recently slayed (right out of the box stone cold) a modded Yggy. The owner of both is now putting the Yggy back to stock and you will see it on audiogon any day now. He will post when he sells his Yggy. The Yggy is so yesterday! Here is a link to the modded Yggy: http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Schiit_mod.html

Could you be more specific please? What does "creamed", "slayed" and is "better" mean?

Ric Schultz · Apr 9, 2017

When he sells his Yggy then he will tell all. He really wants to sell the Yggy! Why should he rave about a cheaper DAC and ruin his ability to sell his "outdated" more expensive DAC? You will know soon. Digital is changing so fast.......so fast. I am trying two more mods to the Gustard Pro today!

morricab · Apr 9, 2017

Al M. said:
Of course. While the MSB DAC may be a true 24-bit ladder DAC as far as the conversion stage goes, rather than a 21-bit ladder DAC as the Yggy, the actual resolution at the output of the DAC still is limited by the practically achievable noise floor (the dynamic range of a stereo system as a whole is even less).

I think that the Yggy is a 24bit DAC but they choose to quote its actual, real world, resolution, which is about 21 bits.

That said, I haven't heard a discrete DAC playing PCM that was distinctly better sounding than a top implementation from chip based R2R (meaning, AD1865, AD1862, PCM63, PCM1704, UA D20400, which is actually a chip based AND discrete R2R. First 8 bits were discrete and the last 12 bits were handled by a 12 bit industrial DAC)

Interestingly, Accuphase had a fully discrete 20 bit DAC back in the late 80s, the Accuphase DC-81L. They then went to Multi, multi bit (multiple PCM63s in parallel) in the DC-91.

I would still love to get my hands on a STAX X1-T that used the UA D20400 with a tube output stage.

Ric Schultz · Apr 9, 2017

The Yggy uses 20 bit DACs in balanced mode.....hence Schiit says it has 21 bits of resolution.

Now, Accuphase is using dual ESS9038 DACs in some wild mode.

Legolas · Apr 9, 2017

I think there are a few things that differ in R-2R DACs generally, aside form wether they use discrete or chip conversion. I am talking about the filter, if it has one, and what it is doing (how it is designed). Some in the trade have the opinion that if you play bit-perfect and no up sampling / oversampling, it is possible to drop the digital filter altogether and do some more subtle filtering in the analogue stage. Audio Note, WaveLength and Zanden come to mind, and possibly the Aqua La Scala on PCM. Also varying performance in R-2R comes down also to (as in any audio device) the power supply and if tube regulated or solid state with torroids, and the line stage, if class A and tubes, or feedback, or solid state opp-amps (God Forbid).

Annoyingly for me, many R-2R DACs are oversampling everything in the DAC. I was under the impression the whole point of R-2R was to covert at the resident bit rate? So we have R-2R as NOS and with a filter, or no filter, OS and a filter, and in some cases OS then converting to DSD and filtered. Seems like all of these Chinese discrete DACs are oversampling and use a filter?

Al M. · Apr 9, 2017

Ric Schultz said:
When he sells his Yggy then he will tell all. He really wants to sell the Yggy! Why should he rave about a cheaper DAC and ruin his ability to sell his "outdated" more expensive DAC? You will know soon.

Unsatisfying answer. I'll leave it at that even though I was tempted to comment a bit more

Digital is changing so fast.......so fast.

Not so convinced about this one. When auditioned in my system, my old Wadia 12 from 1993 beat in 2013, 20 years later, a then current NAD M51 and Hegel 25 DAC in some areas. See here:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?22891-Wadia-12-Dac-or-Rega-dac

Unlike you, I support my opinions with some specifics.

In any case, I will try the Yggy from "yesteryear" against my Berkeley Alpha DAC 2. I hope for some improvements in specific areas, but I don't expect the Yggy to "cream" or "slayer" the Berkeley

. The Berkeley is pretty excellent already.

paul79 · Apr 9, 2017

Al M. said:
Unsatisfying answer. I'll leave it at that even though I was tempted to comment a bit more

Not so convinced about this one. When auditioned in my system, my old Wadia 12 from 1993 beat in 2013, 20 years later, a then current NAD M51 and Hegel 25 DAC in some areas. See here:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?22891-Wadia-12-Dac-or-Rega-dac

Unlike you, I support my opinions with some specifics.

In any case, I will try the Yggy from "yesteryear" against my Berkeley Alpha DAC 2. I hope for some improvements in specific areas, but I don't expect the Yggy to "cream" or "slayer" the Berkeley . The Berkeley is pretty excellent already.

Totally with you here, from a performance perspective. All I ever read is "digital is changing so fast", "getting so much better", etc. I am sick of it to be honest. Topology wise, the DAC I use was built in like 2005 or some such. Still made today, and is regarded as one of the best, still today. Not cheap by any means, but I have yet to hear anything other than a top flight analog rig compete with it. If at this level, it just does not get allot better...

Ric Schultz · Apr 9, 2017

Paul,
Yes, your over $10,000 Totaldac is still among the best today. This is not what I am talking about. It is the under $10,000 DACs that keep getting outdated every 6 months. NADs and Hegels are yesterdays good DACs and obsolete today. Same with Yggy. Same with Benchmark, Exasound, Wyred for Sound, PS Audio, Berkeley Alpha, etc. etc. etc. This is what this thread is about.....new discrete cheap Chinese R2R DACs......and I would add........new cheap Chinese ESS Pro DACs.....these things make the above mentioned units look tired.........and if you add mods to these new DACs then the sky is the limit! You will see all kinds of posts over the next 6 months about this new wave of DACs (stock and modified) and how they "Slay" these overpriced "normal" DACs....he he. The Chinese are getting serious! And what they can do for the money, is off the charts.

Al M. · Apr 9, 2017

Ric Schultz said:
Paul,
Yes, your over $10,000 Totaldac is still among the best today. This is not what I am talking about. It is the under $10,000 DACs that keep getting outdated every 6 months. NADs and Hegels are yesterdays good DACs and obsolete today. Same with Yggy. Same with Benchmark, Exasound, Wyred for Sound, PS Audio, Berkeley Alpha, etc. etc. etc. This is what this thread is about.....new discrete cheap Chinese R2R DACs......and I would add........new cheap Chinese ESS Pro DACs.....these things make the above mentioned units look tired.........and if you add mods to these new DACs then the sky is the limit! You will see all kinds of posts over the next 6 months about this new wave of DACs (stock and modified) and how they "Slay" these overpriced "normal" DACs....he he. The Chinese are getting serious! And what they can do for the money, is off the charts.

"Make them look tired", "slay them" in what way? If you don't come up with specifics, all you are saying is completely meaningless so far. Please get serious if you want to be taken seriously.

So far you remind me of that guy, Blizzard, who claimed that the NADAC with its new ESS chip/DSD technology would be vastly superior to a dCS Vivaldi. Yeah right. I have heard both DACs in the same system. Let me put it this way: the claim was not exactly true.

And no, the NADAC, good as it is, doesn't make my own Berkeley Alpha 2 DAC "look tired" either.

Ric Schultz · Apr 9, 2017

The Nadac is really not good, I will agree. One super older ESS DAC chip and some op amps on the output for $10,000!!!!!. That thing is really a joke! I am talking 2 latest ESS Pro DACs in parallel, with one transformer or one super discrete stage on the output, low jitter clocks, two fifty watt power transformers, great regulation, parts, etc. For one fifth the money of a Nadac. I am guite familiar with Blizzard......got into a few rounds with him.....yes, he likes to hype...you may think I am the same......not at all. All my info comes from my personal listening or from people I trust and also reading the forums of posts by people who have no financial interests. Obviously, you can look at me as a "financial interest" type as I mod these machines......however, my reputation is stellar. Everyone likes what I do. Have been modding CD players since they first came out and manufactured my own DACs and volume controls (class A rated in stereophile for 7 years). I do get really excited by the possibilities of things.....and I have heard what these new ESS DACS can do with tons of mods....simply sublime.

How about more transparent in every way.......you will read the reviews that will give blow by blow accounts of all the differences. You will need to be patient. All these great machines have just been released. By the way, the Oppo Sonica is another Chinese DAC with great potential with mods (ESS 9038 DAC chip). You will see. Part of the problem with all these Chinese machines is that most of them are not going to be reviewed by the normal press. They are sold direct. So, you have to research and read the threads all over the net to get an idea of what they really do.....but the buzz is getting bigger and bigger over these cheaper discrete R2R DACs and the new DACS with the new ESS pro chips.....The truth is out there for those that seek it. If you are conservative and only buy what the big magazines say then you are going to be left way behind in the DAC world.

caesar · Apr 9, 2017

Al M. said:
"Make them look tired", "slay them" in what way? If you don't come up with specifics, all you are saying is completely meaningless so far. Please get serious if you want to be taken seriously.

So far you remind me of that guy, Blizzard, who claimed that the NADAC with its new ESS chip/DSD technology would be vastly superior to a dCS Vivaldi. Yeah right. I have heard both DACs in the same system. Let me put it this way: the claim was not exactly true.

And no, the NADAC, good as it is, doesn't make my own Berkeley Alpha 2 DAC "look tired" either.

Hi Al,
What's your specific take on NADAC vs. Berkeley? and Nadac vs. Vivaldi?
Thanks

Al M. · Apr 10, 2017

Ric Schultz said:
Have been modding CD players since they first came out and manufactured my own DACs and volume controls (class A rated in stereophile for 7 years).

What was your DAC that got A rated in Stereophile for 7 years?

Al M. · Apr 10, 2017

Ric Schultz said:
I am guite familiar with Blizzard......got into a few rounds with him.....yes, he likes to hype...you may think I am the same......not at all. All my info comes from my personal listening or from people I trust and also reading the forums of posts by people who have no financial interests.

Don't know about personal listening, but the latter two kinds of sources were also where Blizzard got his info from. I know how this turned out.

Joe Whip · Apr 10, 2017

Ric Schultz said:
When he sells his Yggy then he will tell all. He really wants to sell the Yggy! Why should he rave about a cheaper DAC and ruin his ability to sell his "outdated" more expensive DAC? You will know soon. Digital is changing so fast.......so fast. I am trying two more mods to the Gustard Pro today!

I don't even see the point in giving this a reply.

Ric Schultz · Apr 10, 2017

Al M. said:
What was your DAC that got A rated in Stereophile for 7 years?

Stereophile never reviewed my Millenium DACs....but you can see some reviews here: http://www.audioreview.com/cat/digi...ems/millennium-dac-ii/prd_125711_2738crx.aspx

The Millenium DACs were never made to be state of the art......but were state of the art for their price and their day.

My earlier mid 90s DAC (the Hand Made DAC) was a all out thing based on UltraAnalog DACs, UltraAnalog input receiver, HDCD filter, 4 power transformers, no output stage, shunt regulators. Only 15 were made.....some people still think they are out of this world great.

Stereophile (Robert Harley) reviewed my passive attenuators in the July 90 issue and they were class A rated for 7 years. They only dropped the rating because they had not heard them in so many years.

Actually, I think Blizzard embellishes everything he says......his information comes form his imagination.....he he. I try to keep my feet firmly planted in truth and the fact that I am here to serve people.....not bullshit them. You may, of course feel that everything I say is bull. But, to those who know me and have tasted my goodies over the years....they know otherwise. However, I am very enthusiastic about what I feel. I have passion for truth and especially when I see a value that can serve people by helping them get better sound for way less money.

Anyway, lets get back to talking about what we experience (the only truth).

wisnon · Apr 10, 2017

astrostar59 said:
I think there are a few things that differ in R-2R DACs generally, aside form wether they use discrete or chip conversion. I am talking about the filter, if it has one, and what it is doing (how it is designed). Some in the trade have the opinion that if you play bit-perfect and no up sampling / oversampling, it is possible to drop the digital filter altogether and do some more subtle filtering in the analogue stage. Audio Note, WaveLength and Zanden come to mind, and possibly the Aqua La Scala on PCM. Also varying performance in R-2R comes down also to (as in any audio device) the power supply and if tube regulated or solid state with torroids, and the line stage, if class A and tubes, or feedback, or solid state opp-amps (God Forbid).

Annoyingly for me, many R-2R DACs are oversampling everything in the DAC. I was under the impression the whole point of R-2R was to covert at the resident bit rate? So we have R-2R as NOS and with a filter, or no filter, OS and a filter, and in some cases OS then converting to DSD and filtered. Seems like all of these Chinese discrete DACs are oversampling and use a filter?

There are other difference too like firmware and type of FPGA control of the ladder.

Al M. · Apr 11, 2017

Ric Schultz said:
Stereophile never reviewed my Millenium DACs....but you can see some reviews here: http://www.audioreview.com/cat/digi...ems/millennium-dac-ii/prd_125711_2738crx.aspx

Cool! Good work.

Actually, I think Blizzard embellishes everything he says......his information comes form his imagination.....he he. I try to keep my feet firmly planted in truth and the fact that I am here to serve people.....not bullshit them. You may, of course feel that everything I say is bull. But, to those who know me and have tasted my goodies over the years....they know otherwise. However, I am very enthusiastic about what I feel. I have passion for truth and especially when I see a value that can serve people by helping them get better sound for way less money.

People do seem to like your mods. But a little less hype could only help your credibility.

wisnon · Apr 11, 2017

Joe Whip said:
I don't even see the point in giving this a reply.

An attorney ALWAYS finds a reason to make a reply. If for nothing else, billable hours. LoL

Joe Whip · Apr 11, 2017

I am not getting paid for this!

Discrete Ladder DAC price implosion

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