Dan D'Agostino Momentum Phono review

asiufy

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Have you guys seen this?

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superi..._Momentum_Phono_Stage_Preamplifier_Review.htm

Investing On The Very Best
Yes, $28,000 is a great deal of money to spend on a phono preamplifier. It's a great deal of money to spend on anything. I know for a fact that there are audiophiles that would consider the D'Agostino phono preamplifier a bargain, at least when it is compared to some others -- since one can spend twice as much on a phono preamplifier if they want. Still, it seems to me that the D'Agostino Master Audio phono preamplifier is reasonably priced when one considers what went into designing this preamplifier, when one considers what goes into building this phono preamp, and especially when one hears what this phono preamplifier is capable of when playing one's records through it. If I had the money I would purchase this phono preamp without a second thought. It isn't perfect, as it lacks a remote control and only has one output. The Dan D'Agostino is the current champ, though, and therefore is highly recommended to all that can afford it. And even to those who can't.


I've been living with this baby for a while now, and I knew it was good, so I'm glad to see the reviews corroborating my impressions :)


 

DaveyF

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Have you guys seen this?

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superi..._Momentum_Phono_Stage_Preamplifier_Review.htm

Investing On The Very Best
Yes, $28,000 is a great deal of money to spend on a phono preamplifier. It's a great deal of money to spend on anything. I know for a fact that there are audiophiles that would consider the D'Agostino phono preamplifier a bargain, at least when it is compared to some others -- since one can spend twice as much on a phono preamplifier if they want. Still, it seems to me that the D'Agostino Master Audio phono preamplifier is reasonably priced when one considers what went into designing this preamplifier, when one considers what goes into building this phono preamp, and especially when one hears what this phono preamplifier is capable of when playing one's records through it. If I had the money I would purchase this phono preamp without a second thought. It isn't perfect, as it lacks a remote control and only has one output. The Dan D'Agostino is the current champ, though, and therefore is highly recommended to all that can afford it. And even to those who can't.


I've been living with this baby for a while now, and I knew it was good, so I'm glad to see the reviews corroborating my impressions :)



Alex, glad to see that you are liking your new D'Ag so much. Yesterday, I was talking to an a'phile who recommended that I get away from a tube phono stage and use an SUT instead...he feels that the SUT is the way to go for very low to low output cartridges. The advice he gave to me was due to the fact that I really like my tube phono stage ( CAT) but cannot use ultra low output cartridges due to noise. What do you think? How low an output can the new D'Ag support?
 

asiufy

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Hi Dave!

I hope to be proven wrong by the Audio Research stuff that we'll be receiving soon, but I always thought tube phono stages didn't make much sense. If you add (tube) noise or "color" to what's already a pretty feeble signal, that noise will just get amplified more and more. Again, IMHO and all that, but if you gotta have tubes, do it in the preamp or the amp even.

You remember our set up last year with the Avantgardes. We had the D'Agostino phono there, and we could switch inputs between the phono and the DAC, and hear the exact same level of noise (zilch, nada) from the high-efficiency horns! Of course, we had to reduce the output level of the DAC and we had the gain on the D'Agostino at -2 or something like that, in order to match the gain required by the rest of the system (Audiopax preamp/amp).

Oh, the cartridge we used last year was a Koetsu Rosewood Signature, with an output of 0.4mV. The Ortofon A95 we currently have in the store is 0.2mV! And even with the Ortofon on the YGs (far from the efficiency of the horns), we don't necessarily need to step up the gain, as depending on the matching preamp/amp, we'd able to use +2/+4 setting (66/68dB gain).

Of course, don't take my word for it, come by and hear for yourself :) We also have a nice Audionet 2-box (SS) phono for comparison, and as I said, we should be getting the Audio Research stuff in soon!


cheers,
Alex
 

microstrip

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Hi Dave!

I hope to be proven wrong by the Audio Research stuff that we'll be receiving soon, but I always thought tube phono stages didn't make much sense. If you add (tube) noise or "color" to what's already a pretty feeble signal, that noise will just get amplified more and more. Again, IMHO and all that, but if you gotta have tubes, do it in the preamp or the amp even.

You will be proven wrong (depending on what ARC's you are receiving, surely). ARC REF phono stages have solid state input stages and tubes for higher level gain, as you wished!
 

microstrip

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Alex, glad to see that you are liking your new D'Ag so much. Yesterday, I was talking to an a'phile who recommended that I get away from a tube phono stage and use an SUT instead...he feels that the SUT is the way to go for very low to low output cartridges. The advice he gave to me was due to the fact that I really like my tube phono stage ( CAT) but cannot use ultra low output cartridges due to noise. What do you think? How low an output can the new D'Ag support?

IMHO then you should use a SUT (Step Up Transformer). Some of the best analog I ever listened to used a SUT (an old MC Kiseki silver wound transformer). The nice thing of this hobby is its diversity - we can get optimum sound quality using very different approaches. There are many valid reasons to use SUT's - just ask the Lamm users!
 

KeithR

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Alex, glad to see that you are liking your new D'Ag so much. Yesterday, I was talking to an a'phile who recommended that I get away from a tube phono stage and use an SUT instead...he feels that the SUT is the way to go for very low to low output cartridges. The advice he gave to me was due to the fact that I really like my tube phono stage ( CAT) but cannot use ultra low output cartridges due to noise. What do you think? How low an output can the new D'Ag support?

Davey- I use a SUT into the MM phono stage input on my Dart CTH for a 0.3mV cart despite having MC phono. its not a tube phono, but the improvement was considerable in dynamics nonetheless. I assume do to better impedance matching.
 

DaveyF

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Davey- I use a SUT into the MM phono stage input on my Dart CTH for a 0.3mV cart despite having MC phono. its not a tube phono, but the improvement was considerable in dynamics nonetheless. I assume do to better impedance matching.

Interesting. Although I have the ability to change impedance with my current preamp ( CAT). Plus, all of the ss phono stages that I have heard don't give me what my tube phono stage does...and that is more air, more presence and IMO, more depth of imaging. The tube phono stage also doesn't lack for dynamics. Albeit as the gain is increased it certainly reaches a limit wherein with too low an output cartridge, noise becomes an issue. Question is, am I throwing out the baby with the bathwater ( cool saying, huh!) by moving over to a SUT? In the past, and it has been quite a while since I heard a SUT, I way preferred my tube phono stage to an SUT. Same with ss.vs tube.

Alex, the current ARC Ref 2 ( I think this is the current model) phono stage is supposed to be quite good...question is whether it has enough clean gain for a cartridge like the A95??
Which brings me to another thought, do i care to consider a cartridge that has p...y output, like many of the Transfigurations and most of the Ortofon's. The Lyra's all have very decent output ( except of course for their SL variants). Not certain that a cartridge that offers very low output ( on the order of 0.2mv) is not asking for trouble...regardless of what phono stage solution you opt for!
 

asiufy

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Well, see, the cool thing about the D'Agostino is that you *CAN* use a SUT with it, as it has 2 MM inputs as well! So you can have you cake *and* eat it too :)

Another thing I like about the D'Ag is it's balanced throughout, input and output. Noise falls dramatically with balanced out of the cartridge and into the phono.

As for the AR being hybrids, that bodes well for them being as quiet as we need them to be, specially on the high efficiency systems with horns. I just have to check if we're getting the Ref 2SE or the Ref 10 to listen to... Should be fun!

Keith's situation with the SUT being better (for him) on the CTH is because the CTH has fixed loading, and he bought the SUT that matched his cartridge better than the fixed loading of the built-in phono.

And Dave, you're welcome to take either one of our SS phonos and compare to yours at home. I'll be curious to see if you're going miss air, presence, and specially, depth of imaging, with either one, specially the D'Agostino!

I think cartridges are like speakers. You pick the one who you idenitify with the most, and find the stuff that pairs with them. If you're ready for a change from the Benz sound, either the Transfiguration or Ortofons might be just that. Lyra might be *too much* of a change, though...

cheers,
alex
 

MadFloyd

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I use an A95 and have the CAT phono. It works and I don't seem to have to turn the volume up that high, but it's not very clean or linear.

The A95 shines with a current input (as opposed to voltage input) like you see on the CH P1.
 

MadFloyd

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Oh and to Alex's point, I get a LOT more air with the solid state CH P1 than I do the tubed CAT. Not even close!
 

bonzo75

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I use an A95 and have the CAT phono. It works and I don't seem to have to turn the volume up that high, but it's not very clean or linear.

The A95 shines with a current input (as opposed to voltage input) like you see on the CH P1.

So which phonos have a current input and which have a voltage input?
 

MadFloyd

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So which phonos have a current input and which have a voltage input?

While I know the CH is not the first phono to offer current inputs, I don't know which others do (Fremer might mention it in his review). I don't think there are many.
 

asiufy

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Yeah, there's the BMC, AFAIK. I had the AQvox, the distant relative of the BMC, designed by the same guy.
I liked it a lot, but it was a little too "stiff", lacked a certain refinement. At the time I think I compared it with the internal phono of the darTZeel CTH, and the CTH was clearly better.
I've heard the more recent BMC stuff, but not the phono, so I can't comment on that...

I just saw that the CH P1 is $31k... And without the power supply! Gasp...
 

rockitman

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You will be proven wrong (depending on what ARC's you are receiving, surely). ARC REF phono stages have solid state input stages and tubes for higher level gain, as you wished!

I'm not sure where the misinformation came from that tube phono stages are noisier than SS . It simply is not true. Take Lamm LP1 Sig....S/N is 79dB...better than the Dag's spec'd 75 dB S/N
http://www.lammindustries.com/PRODUCTS/LP1spec.html
http://cdn.dandagostino.com/documents/manuals/owners-manual-momentum-phonostage-20160825.pdf

ARC Ref 10 Phono....s/n 73dB
http://www.audioresearch.com/en-us/products/sources-analog/reference-phono-10

The Allnic H5000 DHT...a full tube DHT phono stage...80dB S/N. Of course s/n ratio is only one data point in evaluating the sound quality a phono stage. http://hammertoneaudio.com/Images/Products/Allnic H-5000 Manual draft of 22-01-2014.pdf
 
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asiufy

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Hi Christian!

It's not information, man, just my opinion! I thought I had clearly worded that it was just that, my impressions... I've heard dozens of phono stages, and I can't excuse a phono stage for being noisy, and I had plenty of those in my systems over the years. It just diminishes my pleasure of listening to a record. I can listen past pops, clicks, even background noise in the record itself, but a noisy phono will bug the heck out of me...

Oh, and you're right, the S/N ratios in the specs is just one thing to consider, and to be honest, if I'm evaluating an equipment, I don't need the specs in front of me to decide if I like it or not :)
Besides, each manufacturer lists their S/N ratios differently. D'Agostino is unweighted, LAMM is A-weighted, and so it goes...

As I said earlier, I'm very much looking forward to be proven wrong in my initial impressions, once an AR phono lands in the store!


cheers,
alex
 

DaveyF

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Well, see, the cool thing about the D'Agostino is that you *CAN* use a SUT with it, as it has 2 MM inputs as well! So you can have you cake *and* eat it too :)

Another thing I like about the D'Ag is it's balanced throughout, input and output. Noise falls dramatically with balanced out of the cartridge and into the phono.

As for the AR being hybrids, that bodes well for them being as quiet as we need them to be, specially on the high efficiency systems with horns. I just have to check if we're getting the Ref 2SE or the Ref 10 to listen to... Should be fun!

Keith's situation with the SUT being better (for him) on the CTH is because the CTH has fixed loading, and he bought the SUT that matched his cartridge better than the fixed loading of the built-in phono.

And Dave, you're welcome to take either one of our SS phonos and compare to yours at home. I'll be curious to see if you're going miss air, presence, and specially, depth of imaging, with either one, specially the D'Agostino!

I think cartridges are like speakers. You pick the one who you idenitify with the most, and find the stuff that pairs with them. If you're ready for a change from the Benz sound, either the Transfiguration or Ortofons might be just that. Lyra might be *too much* of a change, though...

cheers,
alex

Thanks, Alex. I appreciate your offer.
I must say, I am no fan of balanced designs...imho they add another level of complexity that isn't really necessary in a home system. I believe that Ken Stevens is only now offering a balanced option on his preamp, and that other designers, like Vladimir Lamm, are also not much in favor of it. I would think that a more appropriate aspect in regards to the context of noise in a phono stage would be the fact that a particular phono stage has to amplify to a much greater extent a small signal that is put out by a very low output cartridge. The lower the output, the greater the phono stage has to work to amplify the signal...and therefore the greater the chance for distortion. Having a balanced output, assumes that the signal is cleanly amplified to begin with..
Like I said before, I am a much bigger fan of tube preamps and phono stages than of ss designs.
 

rockitman

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Hi Christian!

It's not information, man, just my opinion! I thought I had clearly worded that it was just that, my impressions... I've heard dozens of phono stages, and I can't excuse a phono stage for being noisy, and I had plenty of those in my systems over the years. It just diminishes my pleasure of listening to a record. I can listen past pops, clicks, even background noise in the record itself, but a noisy phono will bug the heck out of me...

Oh, and you're right, the S/N ratios in the specs is just one thing to consider, and to be honest, if I'm evaluating an equipment, I don't need the specs in front of me to decide if I like it or not :)
Besides, each manufacturer lists their S/N ratios differently. D'Agostino is unweighted, LAMM is A-weighted, and so it goes...

As I said earlier, I'm very much looking forward to be proven wrong in my initial impressions, once an AR phono lands in the store!


cheers,
alex

Not trying to bash your opinion Alex...just pointing out that the tube stages I listed are as good...almost (ARC) or even better Lamm, Allnic in the s/n department than most SS phono's in existence. I think once you hear the ARC and the associated tube reproduction realism, you opinions about tube phono's are bound to change. Cheers !
 

microstrip

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Hi Christian!

It's not information, man, just my opinion! I thought I had clearly worded that it was just that, my impressions... I've heard dozens of phono stages, and I can't excuse a phono stage for being noisy, and I had plenty of those in my systems over the years. (...)

If you had plenty of noise in a system because of the phono unit it was either a flawed design (and they exist in this hobby) or it was being inadequately used. Any system must be matched, both in objective and subjective terms. Many phono stages that people wrongly refer as noisy can sound SOTA if correctly used. For example, contrary to some people advice SUTs are not ´"bandaids" but can be part of the phono audio chain and enhance sound quality. And no rule states that ultra low output MCs have better sound quality than other normal output cartridges.
 

asiufy

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If you had plenty of noise in a system because of the phono unit it was either a flawed design (and they exist in this hobby) or it was being inadequately used. Any system must be matched, both in objective and subjective terms. Many phono stages that people wrongly refer as noisy can sound SOTA if correctly used. For example, contrary to some people advice SUTs are not ´"bandaids" but can be part of the phono audio chain and enhance sound quality. And no rule states that ultra low output MCs have better sound quality than other normal output cartridges.

You are absolutely correct! System matching is very important, and that's why there's no substitute for experience. As I said, I've been through many different setups and individual components, and some of the stuff I had at home I'd have to classify simply as "flawed designs", because they clearly were incredibly noisy.

Unfortunately, one thing I never played much with was with SUTs, only at a friend's place back home...


cheers,
alex
 

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