MBL or TIDAL? SPEAKERS, ELECTRONICS...

caesar · Apr 3, 2017

Lagonda said:
Hi Caesar, like you told me a couple of years ago, the treble of the Krell's leave something to be desired. The biggest difference with MBL 9011 amplification was surprisingly in the bass. With MBL the the mid bass speed and articulation improved drastically, Sound staging also improved. Initially after getting MBL amplification i left my Statement subwoofers disconnected,enjoying the newfound fidelity, and finding the integration of the subs difficult.
After a couple of month the old itch returned, and I tried again. The best integration was achieved with the 101's running without active crossover, but with the internal 12 inch driver disconnected, the passive crossover in the 101's is still great for integration with the "smooth" settings perfect in my setup. The subwoofer towers are actively crost over at 100hz 24 dB with a very specific delay time/ fase setting, it took a long time to get right !
The improvements are better bass integration, compared to the original two 12 inch drivers. 16 12 inch drivers go deeper and faster when driven correctly , and they load the room better than the original down firing subs.
The imaging and sound staging also improved drastically, if it is because the main amplification has a lighter load with separate amplification on the sub's, or because of less movement In the main speakers is unclear.
There is a lot of room information in those deepest bass tones, that you don't hear with a regular setup.

Thank you - I am starting to remember the conversation... I am surprised, though, that you have held on to the Krells...

As for woofers and subs, what you are saying makes a lot of sense. Because the MBL 101 is so inefficient, you really need to throw a lot of current / "power" at it, like I do, with 4 heavy duty amps to get them to perform at full potential. But I really commend your creativity and patience for disconnecting the woofers. It's awesome that you were able to successfully integrate those bass towers!!!!! Wow, just Wow!!!!!

Folsom · Apr 3, 2017

KeithR said:
Interesting comments since you have continually bashed Magico, Valin, and any other related gear that you consider a-musical.

As far as Folsom, nobody likes to read bad comments about what they own - but speakers are such personal taste, so people need to chill out.

This thread has become sorta pathetic following my comments. Everyone keeps saying "speakers" when I distinctly from the start was only commenting on full house sound which is electronics and speakers, just like the thread title. Do I need to draw pictures? Give lessons in how to read? I've even said I don't believe the speakers themselves are responsible for the house sound.

Lagonda · Apr 3, 2017

caesar said:
Thank you - I am starting to remember the conversation... I am surprised, though, that you have held on to the Krells...

As for woofers and subs, what you are saying makes a lot of sense. Because the MBL 101 is so inefficient, you really need to throw a lot of current / "power" at it, like I do, with 4 heavy duty amps to get them to perform at full potential. But I really commend your creativity and patience for disconnecting the woofers. It's awesome that you were able to successfully integrate those bass towers!!!!! Wow, just Wow!!!!!

Holding on to the Krell is a necessity, it's doing the depp bass work! I would prefer using more MBL amps,but will wait till i find something used at a good price. I did not "invent" the passive main, activ sub setup, it's exactly the way MBL do it in the X-streme's, they feed the 4 "radialstrahler's" full signal passively crossing over to the subwoofers, that actively work from 100hz and down. 6 channels of amplification ! A second set of 101's, maybe installed in the ceiling is what I want to do next ! A poor mans diy X-streme, but I need to build an extension to my house first.

Audiocrack · Apr 3, 2017

Folsom said:
This thread has become sorta pathetic following my comments. Everyone keeps saying "speakers" when I distinctly from the start was only commenting on full house sound which is electronics and speakers, just like the thread title. Do I need to draw pictures? Give lessons in how to read? I've even said I don't believe the speakers themselves are responsible for the house sound.

First of all it would help if you would start behaving like a civilized person and choosing your words much more carefully. Apparently that is difficult because a word like 'pathetic' in your last post does not help in this regard.

Secondly, in your first enligtning comment you did bash the MBL and Tidal speakers. You only left some room that the latter with other electronics might sound less awfull.

I do not ask you to like brands like MBL or Tidal but I - and I suppose I am speaking for many WBF members - would appreciate some decent forum behavior.

Folsom · Apr 4, 2017

I find people putting words in my mouth ten fold appalling to your beef of an honest criticism. And you're doing it again; I've made no distinct criticism of the speakers themselves except in admiration (positive). There's nothing civilized about getting hurt over having a different opinion so you must belittle someone by changing their story to fit your agenda. Pathetic is an apt word for needing to resort to such measures.

treitz3 · Apr 4, 2017

Gentlemen, If you have personal comments towards one another, please take it to a private message.

Let's keep this thread on track and moving in a positive and constructive direction for all.

Thank you.

Tom

Audiocrack · Apr 4, 2017

treitz3 said:
Gentlemen, If you have personal comments towards one another, please take it to a private message.

Let's keep this thread on track and moving in a positive and constructive direction for all.

Thank you.

Tom

Yep Tom, I am fully in favor of a positive and constructive direction. So I totally agree with you on that. That said, such a direction is nearly impossible if somebody - in a few posts - thinks it is appropriate to use phrases and words like:
- "(...) the two most unnatural, colored, highly modified, pumped full of weirdness, companies I can think of (...)"
- "(...) Their sounds are so bizarre (...)"
- "pathetic"
- "appalling"

There is no need at all to write comments like this on WBF notwithstanding differences in taste. As mentioned before, decent forum behavior is in my view something we might expect from all our members, including a certain mister Folsom.

Folsom · Apr 4, 2017

I couldn't be happier to PM once the public slander posts stop. I have my opinion. State your own opinion instead of trying to tell me what mine is.

Audiocrack · Apr 4, 2017

I believe the various posts in this thread speak for themselves, so the good/interested reader can make up his own mind. I am not going to waste any more time on this.

Ron Resnick · Apr 4, 2017

Audiocrack said:
Yep Tom, I am fully in favor of a positive and constructive direction. So I totally agree with you on that. That said, such a direction is nearly impossible if somebody - in a few post - thinks it is appropriate to use phrases and words like:
- "(...) the two most unnatural, colored, highly modified, pumped full of weirdness, companies I can think of (...)"
- "(...) Their sounds are so bizarre (...)"
- "pathetic"
- "appalling"

There is no need at all to write comments like this on WBF notwithstanding differences in taste. As mentioned before, decent forum behavior is in my view something we might expect from all our members, including a certain mister Folsom.

+1

Mike Lavigne · Apr 4, 2017

Audiocrack said:
Let's see Mike if we can arrange someday to listen to the systems we have put together!

+1.

I likewise look forward to this happening at some point.

thedudeabides · Apr 4, 2017

Folsom said:
This thread has become sorta pathetic following my comments.

Do you think there might be a connection?

KeithR · Apr 4, 2017

The recent Stereophile video says the $200k+ Tidal Akiras will be at Axpona - hopefully some members will give us opinions on the big guys

Audiocrack · Apr 4, 2017

KeithR said:
The recent Stereophile video says the $200k+ Tidal Akiras will be at Axpona - hopefully some members will give us opinions on the big guys

Yep, with Tidal electronics and Tidal cables. So apart from the source a whole Tidal set up: for all Axpona visitors a good opportunity to judge for themselves.

Audiocrack · Apr 5, 2017

Here is a link in which a Stereotimes reviewer describes his experiences with a nearly complete Tidal system: http://www.stereotimes.com/post/the-voice-that-is-a-visit/

Here is one quote: "(...) new Akira speakers? Truth be told, I was simply stunned by their sound. Or perhaps I should more accurately state – their lack of sound. What I heard was perhaps the least colored sound and stunningly beautiful, pure sound from a loudspeaker (and accompanying system) that I can recall ever having heard. The degree of clarity and resolution was so pure and presented music in a open, clear sensational manner. I’m talking not about hyped up brightness but sound that was about as real and life-like as I could imagine."

Audiocrack · Apr 5, 2017

And here another quote from this Stereotimes link that speaks for itself: "In a word I would describe their sound as pure. I would also easily add to that by stating the sound as not simply being clear but also as see through, transparent, characterless, elegant, free of a sound typically associated with speakers and immensely musical."

John57 · Apr 6, 2017

caesar said:
Hi John,

High end audio is an experience. Above, you are quoting marketing materials. I am with Bonzo - if you are serious, travel to hear both. When you spend time with them, one of them will strike you as more subjectively "real" to you. What guys on the internet prefer is irrelevant - their tastes and imagination of "real" will not likely match yours, despite the fact that everone listens to live music.

Everyone will claim that their favorite piece of gear "disappears" and "sounds like real music" while something they don't like sticks out because of its gross coloration and just makes "hifi sounds". On the extremes, just think of a guy listening to a magico q5 with spectral vs. a guy listening to a horn with a set: each guy thinks theirs is "natural"/ "real" and the other's is badly "colored". Obviously, the same applies to any gear combination...the reality is that a magico or a wilson or an avantgarde will disappear to the respective fans and put them in a state of psychological bliss enjoying music, yet the same system will exhibit a gross coloration to those who don't like it.

Personally, I like MBL a lot. I use them with a tube preamp and 4 large class a monoblocks from Symphonic Line Kraft (also German but better sounding to me than MBL's own amps) for a very open (not bright!), very dynamic, and full-bodied (non-fat!) musically transparent sound. If you find that you like MBL, we can share more experiences... Good Luck!

I'll resist saying .....Caesar. My point was to kick off a discussion rather than make a buying decision. In that regard the posting was obviously both simplistic and kinetic. I was keen to explore two quite different major brands and share others experiences, which largely seems to have occurred here. Finally, thank you for sharing your choices, in this way. I really appreciate it and will enjoy learning more about the gear you use, because of your share here. Gear I had not heard of before.

John57 · Apr 6, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
+1
I think this is very well-put.

I agree Ron, and reinforce the principle Caesar noted that we (happily and sometimes not so much?) undergo constant reframing or re-calibartion with each listening experience. And we relatively (quickly?) re-shuffle, contextualise and re-define our expectations, judgements and wants accordingly. As part of these Forums I have learned a load more about products, brands and discipline as well as enjoyment. Frankly I am sitting here blasphemously listening to YouTube that is sounding rather good...on a specialised upgraded $25K Marantz based system thoroughly enjoying the experience rather a lot.
I must say I was surprised to find this thread had taken off like it did...no doubt these brands are renowned each in their own markets. Geographically they are not accessible in this region (Middle East). And...I am not buying...I have a truck load of stuff already on the way.
And I yearn for tolerance of differences of opinions and experiences especially avoidance of personal remarks. I am here to talk about audio... and learn, share and have fun.

bonzo75 · Apr 6, 2017

John57 said:
I agree Ron, and reinforce the principle Caesar noted that we (happily and sometimes not so much?) undergo constant reframing or re-calibartion with each listening experience. And we relatively (quickly?) re-shuffle, contextualise and re-define our expectations, judgements and wants accordingly. As part of these Forums I have learned a load more about products, brands and discipline as well as enjoyment. Frankly I am sitting here blasphemously listening to YouTube that is sounding rather good...on a specialised upgraded $25K Marantz based system thoroughly enjoying the experience rather a lot.
I must say I was surprised to find this thread had taken off like it did...no doubt these brands are renowned each in their own markets. Geographically they are not accessible in this region (Middle East). And...I am not buying...I have a truck load of stuff already on the way.
And I yearn for tolerance of differences of opinions and experiences especially avoidance of personal remarks. I am here to talk about audio... and learn, share and have fun.

We should treat audio like sports, how we used to play as kids, making teams that faced off against each other for that evening. Next day, different team

caesar · Apr 6, 2017

Lagonda said:
Holding on to the Krell is a necessity, it's doing the depp bass work! I would prefer using more MBL amps,but will wait till i find something used at a good price. I did not "invent" the passive main, activ sub setup, it's exactly the way MBL do it in the X-streme's, they feed the 4 "radialstrahler's" full signal passively crossing over to the subwoofers, that actively work from 100hz and down. 6 channels of amplification ! A second set of 101's, maybe installed in the ceiling is what I want to do next ! A poor mans diy X-streme, but I need to build an extension to my house first.

Thanks for explaining this - makes sense! And best of luck!!!!

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