The 24-Bit Delusion

amirm

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Hi Amir,

This DAC have about -130 dB noise floor. It is very good for modern DACs.

P.S. Thank you for shared measurements.
My pleasure Yuri. :)

The noise floor in the graph I posted from stereophile is not the actual noise floor of the DAC because the FFT bins are smaller than 1 Hz. As a result, they way under-report the actual noise ("process gain"). I looked and I did not see the FFT points that JA used there so we can't back out its effect which can be quite high.

The second measurement where he compared 16 to 24 bit input is correct due to relative measure and hence the reason I quoted that part.

Either way though your conclusion is correct that this state-of-the-art DAC with superb measured performance.
 

amirm

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+100 Al. I buy music in DSD if I can't get it any other way and convert it to PCM.
I do the same thing. I let Roon do the conversion on the fly for me. I did a level matched comparison of that versus what the label produced offline and the results were the same.
 

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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+100 Al. I buy music in DSD if I can't get it any other way and convert it to PCM. I know there are plenty of DSD fans here but I am not one as I find DSD to be too rolled off and smooth for my taste. Not all DSD but I find far to many to have a sameness in overall presentation. Whatever floats your boat. The great thing now is there are many options to get the flavor you want.

I got that with the Auralic Vega, it was a little soft/smooth but my Sony HAP does a great job w/DSD and upsampling imo.
 

jkeny

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My pleasure Yuri. :)

The noise floor in the graph I posted from stereophile is not the actual noise floor of the DAC because the FFT bins are smaller than 1 Hz. As a result, they way under-report the actual noise ("process gain"). I looked and I did not see the FFT points that JA used there so we can't back out its effect which can be quite high.
You finally caught on with a little help, I expect!

Such a basic misunderstanding for a qualified E'ee

Good to see that you are no longer confused that "Oversampling is used in the measurements resulting in much lower measured noise floor."

It's ironic that you portray yourself as some sort of measurements expert, particularly where noise is concerned & yet you lack such basic understandings?
 

Fiddle Faddle

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Aug 7, 2015
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Gentlemen, interesting conversation! How do considerations here change in the case of digitized vinyl? For example, take a Rolling Stones record from late 60s or early 70s, that has been touched by man only once or twice, and utilize top notch equipment to digitize the record (and additionally eliminate Stylus microphics)? The guy does everything to 24 / 192, and it sounds fabulous (also very few ticks and pops).

I will say straight out that I am extremely passionate about > 16 bit playback, regardless of the signal to noise ratio of the actual material that was originally digitalised to begin with. Many are obviously going to disagree with me, but I will always steadfastly maintain that when it comes to quantisation noise in the digital domain, it does not need to be even remotely audible in order to noticeable effect what we DO hear.

I can, for example, make a high quality 24 bit transcription of one of the modern-generation audiophile 45 RPM LP sets. Let's take for example a Decca recording from the early 1960s or even the late 50s - so pre-Dolby A to boot. The signal to noise ratio on these recordings would measure poorly to begin with, let alone the additional noise caused by it being delivered in an LP format (LP itself, turntable, phono amplifier, etc).

Yet when I take the 24 bit file I create from the above material, I can reduce the word length to 16 bits using any number of noise shaping dither techniques, and the resulting 16 bit files all sound different to each other - and none of them sound like (or as good as) the original 24 bit file. This goes against the theory that so long as the signal to noise and dynamic range of the material is less than 96 dB, then 16 bit makes no difference at all compared to 24 bit. If we believe the maths and the theory, the 16 bit files should sound identical to the 24 bit files because the signal to noise ratio is not high enough to begin with.

And I find this to happen consistently - I have never encountered any 24 bit file - even a fully digital one - that does not lose sound quality when the word length is reduced. And bear in mind when I listen, I don't listen loudly. When it comes to classical, the loudest peaks might measure only 90 dB at the most which means the average listening level is more like the low 60s dB range.

Infact only last week I was going through my 24 bit Decca vinyl LP transcriptions and determining on an individual cases-by-case basis which of three noise shaping curves I would employ (this is only for my CD versions - obviously the 24 bit files remain intact). I decided on those three curves after many months of auditioning many dither modules and the three I came up with sounded the best, even though none of them sound like the 24 bit source material. The reason for having three curves to chose from is that each curve has certain sonic strengths and weaknesses. The trick therefore is to use the curve that represents the best compromise. It is different in each and every case. But of course if I subscribed to pure mathematical theory, I've been wasting my time. But my listening skills tell me a completely different story - what happens 120 dB down is VERY audible at NORMAL (far lower than even 100 dB peak) listening levels.

The only thing I agree with is that for practical purposes, the vast majority of recording equipment isn't going to manage a whole lot better than the low 120s range to begin with. But that is still a whole lot better than 16 bits, especially when some headroom is needed during the recording process.

One additional thing I should point out even though it should be obvious - the higher the sample rate, the less effect reducing the word length will have. If, for example, I had a 96 Khz 24 bit file, I could reduce the word length to 16 bits and I would likely not be able to hear the difference. The reason for that is I can push the quantisation noise so far above the musical spectrum that it has no audible effect, whilst the audible spectrum can enjoy a noise floor exceeding 20 bits across the entire frequency range. But at low sample rates (<= 48 khz), there simply isn't enough bandwidth to have a flat noise floor below around 20 to 21 bits across the entire audio spectrum. I suppose this is also a reason why progressively higher DSD rates sound better and better too.
 
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opus112

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Feb 24, 2016
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The noise floor in the graph I posted from stereophile is not the actual noise floor of the DAC because the FFT bins are smaller than 1 Hz. As a result, they way under-report the actual noise ("process gain"). I looked and I did not see the FFT points that JA used there so we can't back out its effect which can be quite high.

If we know the bandwidth of the FFT bins then we can have a good go at estimating the audio band noise. By eyeball the baseline is around -144dB. If the FFT bin width really is 1Hz then the process gain is going to be 10*log(20k/1) = 43dB so the integrated noise floor would turn out to be -144+43 = -101dB. Not very impressive is it? If the bin width is under 1Hz the result only gets even less impressive.

So my question here is - how did you find out the FFT bin width?
 

BruceD

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Why should I assume the author wants to sell me something? His DAC, according to his website, "converts 24-bit 192KHz high-resolution music files", so it's not as if he is making a lower-bit DAC and then tries to sell me that as being just as good as hi-res. No, he is talking as a digital engineer, and Mike Moffat from Schiit, and of Theta Digital fame (or do you suggest that he does not know what he's talking about?), seems to agree with him.

Save me then from this incarnation--for the most agonising/ ear ache inducing/thoroughly unlistenable Garbage I had the misfortune to spend my hard earned on is this POS with 24-bit-192Khz "encoded,remastered, force fed/etc"

should be confined to instant landfill :mad:

Want the example? --listen to this if you can!--and I Like CG --if she only knew the end result:(

BD

IMG_0363.jpg
 

Yuri Korzunov

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Jul 30, 2015
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If we know the bandwidth of the FFT bins then we can have a good go at estimating the audio band noise. By eyeball the baseline is around -144dB. If the FFT bin width really is 1Hz then the process gain is going to be 10*log(20k/1) = 43dB so the integrated noise floor would turn out to be -144+43 = -101dB. Not very impressive is it? If the bin width is under 1Hz the result only gets even less impressive.

Noise floor is a middle line (math average) of noise in full band without signal.

If you want calculate signal/noise ratio, you need go to energies of signal and noise.

Signal energy is square (math integral) of signal bins.
Noise energy is square of noise bins.

Signal/noise ratio depend on bands of noise and signal, that accepted for used method.
 

KostasP.

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May 6, 2016
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Exactly, imo this is where higher resolution seems to help, especially DSD. Not sure it really has much to do with resolution as upsampling redbook to DSD provides a lot of the same benefits, but in comparing I do think DSD has a more relaxed and less fatiguing sound.

Also form Newton: "Where I find digital to fall down is the long term listening fatigue......"

Provided that the digital playback system in its totality ( speakers, amplification, etc.) is of high quality, and the production process commensurate, there should be no such perceived symptoms. The removal of preconception and dialled-in expectations will also help. I experienced no digital fatigue at all emanating from the T+A PDP 300HV and from other manufacturers, in my long quest to finalise my digital playback dilemma ( my extended comments are on the Aqua Formula thread ). Furthermore, since I NEVER play badly produced music ( the car and the portable suffice for this), I have no need to manipulate the original sources, digital or analogue. I do not "equalise" something which I perceive as not being "unequal"

However, if the edginess, aggression and agitation are intended and integral elements inherent in the music itself, they MUST be reproduced, regardless of being digital or analogue and regardless of causing fatigue or not! An apt example is Edgar Varese's "Arcana, Integrales, Ionisation" with Zubin Mehta (Decca), played at appropriate SPLs ( accurately C-weighted peaks of around 105 dB at listening chair) on a linear, distortion-free system. This is all, of course, on vinyl.

By the way DaveC, tour D4 cables have finally found their ideal partner - the T+A PDP 3000 HV, which I am receiving in a few days.

Cheers to all, Kostas.
 

jkeny

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If we know the bandwidth of the FFT bins then we can have a good go at estimating the audio band noise. By eyeball the baseline is around -144dB. If the FFT bin width really is 1Hz then the process gain is going to be 10*log(20k/1) = 43dB so the integrated noise floor would turn out to be -144+43 = -101dB. Not very impressive is it? If the bin width is under 1Hz the result only gets even less impressive.

So my question here is - how did you find out the FFT bin width?

I too would like an answer from Amir on where he came up with this quote "FFT bins are smaller than 1 Hz." - it might begin to explain where his confusion about such measurements came from?
 

amirm

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I too would like an answer from Amir on where he came up with this quote "FFT bins are smaller than 1 Hz." - it might begin to explain where his confusion about such measurements came from?
My confusion? No. Please read my original answer again: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...4-Bit-Delusion&p=443211&viewfull=1#post443211

Let me know if you still don't understand what I wrote and I will write an article on it on ASR Forum as to not derail this thread.

For now, if you are standing by the freeway watching the cars go at speed limit, you can be assured they are not in first gear! :) Pay attention to the measurement graph I quoted, understand the gear used, and you will have your answer. Either way, I guarantee you that we do not have the noise floor of that DCS DAC and hence ENOB. It is the second measurement that JA performed which gives us inference to that as I explained in my original post.
 

amirm

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And I find this to happen consistently - I have never encountered any 24 bit file - even a fully digital one - that does not lose sound quality when the word length is reduced. And bear in mind when I listen, I don't listen loudly. When it comes to classical, the loudest peaks might measure only 90 dB at the most which means the average listening level is more like the low 60s dB range.
Do the same test blind and I am confident you will change your point of view on this. Just have a loved one rename the files to "file A, file B, File C" and see if you can identify them let alone confirm the preference in this regard. There are also a number of such tests online that you can take (Archmiago comes to mind).

Alternatively truncate everything below 16 bits, amplify it and listen to it. That better sound like music or there is nothing there to hear.
 

jkeny

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I have read your answer thanks - you show great confusion - first you state "The actual noise floor is not -140+ db. Oversampling is used in the measurements resulting in much lower measured noise floor." How could you make such a fundamental mistake unless you are confused?

Then you make this statement about the measurements "The noise floor in the graph I posted from stereophile is not the actual noise floor of the DAC because the FFT bins are smaller than 1 Hz." So you now realise it's not some magic oversampling - where did this notion come from & who informed you that you were spreading misinformation? These are such fundamental understandings in digital processing & measurements that it's incredible you should be so ill informed.

As was pointed out by opus, a bin of 1Hz would result in a process gain of about 43dB which brings the "real" noise floor to -101dB (the graph -144dB + 43dB) - a 17bit resolution. You posted that the "FFT bins are smaller than 1Hz" which would mean this graph shows a "real" noise floor higher than -101dB & therefore less than 17bit resolution. Do you understand process gain in FFTs & are you claiming 17bit resolution noise floor for the DcS Vivaldi DAC as per that graph you posted?

Now what we would all like to hear from you is where you got the "smaller than 1Hz" fact from & how do you reconcile the DcS Vivaldi is 17bit resolution?

I suspect that there is an endemic of "alternate facts" sweeping the "land of the free" & it's mow a post-truth endemic sweeping that and

Let me know if you still don't understand what I wrote and I will write an article on it on ASR Forum as to not derail this thread.
You've made erroneous & misleading statements here & here is where you should try to clarify these statements - not some backwater hideaway of similarly deluded measureists

For now, if you are standing by the freeway watching the cars go at speed limit, you can be assured they are not in first gear! :) Pay attention to the measurement graph I quoted, understand the gear used, and you will have your answer. Either way, I guarantee you that we do not have the noise floor of that DCS DAC and hence ENOB. It is the second measurement that JA performed which gives us inference to that as I explained in my original post.
Your alternate facts would be most interesting to hear as both I & Opus have now asked you for these.
 
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amirm

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I have read your answer thanks - you show great confusion - first you state "The actual noise floor is not -140+ db. Oversampling is used in the measurements resulting in much lower measured noise floor." How could you make such a fundamental mistake unless you are confused?
What is the fundamental mistake John?
 

jkeny

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What is the fundamental mistake John?

Not knowing how to read an FFT as a self-confessed measurement objectivist. Have you never done FFTs? Have you always misinterpreted FFTs in this erroneous way & spread this misinformation? Do all the ASR members have the same misunderstanding or is this where you got the correct information from? But it appears you didn't even understand the correction given to you as you don't know how to calculate process gain & spread further misinformation due to this lack of understanding.

Why try to answer the questions that were asked of you with further questions - dodging & deflection!!

Care to answer the questions asked of you & clear up your misinformation?
 

amirm

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Not knowing how to read an FFT as a self-confessed measurement objectivist. Have you never done FFTs? Have you always misinterpreted FFTs in this erroneous way & spread this misinformation? Do all the ASR members have the same misunderstanding or is this where you got the correct information from? But it appears you didn't even understand the correction given to you as you don't know how to calculate process gain & spread further misinformation due to this lack of understanding.
You said there was a fundamental mistake in what I said. What is that fundamental mistake John? Nothing above is specific to what I said: "The actual noise floor is not -140+ db. Oversampling is used in the measurements resulting in much lower measured noise floor."

Why try to answer the questions that were asked of you with further questions - dodging & deflection!!

Care to answer the questions asked of you & clear up your misinformation?
Just specify the misinformation please. There was only one sentence from what you quoted from me. Surely it is easy to say specifically what is wrong with it fundamentally.
 

jkeny

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Amir, your usual obfuscation is on display - explain why you didn't know the basic fundamental knowledge about FFT "noise floors" that anyone who portrays themselves as a measurements practitioner should be very au fait with. You were also asked to explain where you got the "FFT bins are smaller than 1Hz"

You have argued vociferously with many here about noise floors & measurements, yet you display fundamental lack of knowledge about noise floors on measurements!!
 

amirm

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Amir, your usual obfuscation is on display - explain why you didn't know the basic fundamental knowledge about FFT "noise floors" that anyone who portrays themselves as a measurements practitioner should be very au fait with. You were also asked to explain where you got the "FFT bins are smaller than 1Hz"

You have argued vociferously with many here about noise floors & measurements, yet you display fundamental lack of knowledge about noise floors on measurements!!
I promise you I will answer that question. For now though, I am unclear why you won't answer my simple question. Once again this was the back and forth:



What is fundamentally wrong with what I said?
 

jkeny

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I promise you I will answer that question. For now though, I am unclear why you won't answer my simple question. Once again this was the back and forth:



What is fundamentally wrong with what I said?

You have been answered a number of times already - now follow through on your promise or are you going to engage in your typical obfuscation & deflection tactics?
 

Al M.

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You have been answered a number of times already - now follow through on your promise or are you going to engage in your typical obfuscation & deflection tactics?

John, your arrogant attitude and obfuscation & deflection tactics annoy me greatly. I am really sick of this. Why cannot you answer Amir's simple and direct question in a direct way? I would also like to know.

What, if anything, is wrong with Amir's statement? Please answer directly. And don't give me the usual blah blah about having answered already. I wouldn't know what you are talking about.

I am really losing my patience, John.
 

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