Thinking about realism in reproduction again

morricab

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I was thinking again the other day about realism in audio reproduction after re-reading an article in TAS 117 (1999) from HP regarding dynamics and the 4th dimension of soundspace in audio reproduction. He was thinking about how dynamics and specifically restriction in dynamics, plays a role in the reduction of realism from playback systems. He put forward an interesting notion that dynamic restriction in particular frequency bands is one potential cause of sonic character in gear that nominally measures "perfect".

"However, with most home audio components, we get
nothing like the dynamic truth. We can, with the best components,
get overall a very wide (perceived) range of dynamic
contrasts, and these we have called “macrodynamics.” But
these are never distributed equally throughout the frequency
spectrum."

For loudspeakers I have heard this very clearly in the past when one driver doesn't have the same dynamic envelope as others you will get a change in character in the speaker at different output levels. For electronics this becomes a bit harder to understand but could be still a factor, particularly if the power supply is not up to the challenge with demanding material. For electronics, I am still of the mind that distortion and changes with frequency are making the character of a particular piece of gear but I can see how dynamic restriction in certain bands could change the character. What I don't get though is how this would be consistent regardless of level and rather than a preamp or amp always sounding "dark" or "bright" it would only manifest this character when that dynamic restriction is being run into and at lower levels the gear would behave differently. I have not observed this too much other than sometimes the sound gets hard or glassy when gear is pushed too hard, but then it is likely a sharp increase in distortion and not dynamic restriction per se.

Just wanted to through this one out there because I think the idea of HP has some merit on the face of it but I am not sure from a technical POV how it would manifest in electronics. For speakers I have a clearer idea how it can be so.

One interesting point he makes, and I tend to agree with him, is that no low sensitivity speakers can achieve dynamic realism and that there are no standard driver or planar speakers that can truly deliver as well.

"Furthermore, few designers, to my knowledge, use measurements
that allow them to determine the resolution floor
of their speaker systems. Without knowing how well a speaker
system can resolve low-level signals, we can’t have a measurable
idea of its usable dynamic range. We often find ourselves,
particularly with speaker systems of extremely low
efficiency, unable to bring the sound to life until we have
turned the volume up past a comparable level in the hall that
would give us the same sense of impact. Which means we’ll
be playing the system too loudly. Ironically, some of the electrostatic
speakers – I fondly recall the old Beveridge Model 2
– will give us far greater resolving power and allow us to find
equivalents to similar concert-hall levels at low levels, while
denying us realistic playback at high levels; thus we miss the
loudest levels that can make a performance electrifying and its
impact well-nigh overwhelming."

"The return to high-efficiency speakers, prompted by the
rise of triode amplifier designs, is also a return to a more realistic
scale of overall dynamics. Dynamic truth became the
poor stepchild, the Cinderella perhaps, when low-efficiency
speakers, designed for extremely flat frequency response,
became the industry norm. This was occasioned by the rise of
widespread home stereo playback in the late Fifties. That they
were smaller and more compact made them seem more “practical”
and relegated the big corner horns to the swap-and-slop
shops or to the Japanese market, where even today, the James
B. Lansing Ranger Paragon and ElectroVoice Patrician can
still be imported. And as a matter of practical fact, designers
have yet to combine high efficiency with very flat frequency
response in commercially practicable designs. Need I note
that these old behemoth horns could be driven to quite loud
levels with as few as five watts?
What may lie behind the entire triode movement is a
desire for more immediacy – an immediacy that comes from
dynamic “jump” – in the reproduction of sound, a sense that
one is getting closer to the music, to the absolute itself. That
sense of immediacy is difficult to achieve with most conventional
moving-coil speaker systems, and even with high-resolution,
low-efficiency designs like the electrostatics outside a
relatively narrow band of midrange frequencies. If we follow
this line of reasoning to its logical jumping off place, we come
face to face with the argument that the first few watts of
amplifier power may, in fact, sound better (the triode argument),
but maybe not for the reason some suppose. With a
highly efficient speaker, the headroom of the amplifying
device would be greater in the first few watts, and the distortion
the lowest. If immediacy and dynamic headroom are two
heads of the same chicken, then we could say that only with a
convincing reproduction of music’s dynamics could be there a
sense of immediacy and perhaps even intimacy. ***
Thus, we might say that the sense of true immediacy
(not brightness and not exactly presence of the non-living
kind) is, at least in the midband, also another key to the
dynamic trueness of a system’s reproduction."
 

Folsom

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I find that passage to be wandering uselessness.

The goal is full of merit. I've found that what I call current phase is exactly what's needed to get as close as you're going to get given the problem of the studios existence in the chain. It's all about the dynamics being right, and not just the big ones, but all the smaller stuff. You can't have banjos and voices sound real without it for example.

Many tube amps naturally get much closer to current being in phase; currents phase is amplitude in the time domain (to correspond to frequency, it's basically perpendicular to the other), as I describe it so it can be used in discussion. They are a bit lower powered usually (SET and such), and take less care when there's only a few tubes to prevent oscillation etc, with very high voltages it's hard to ever get micro-saturations that basically rob music of sounding natural.

I haven't heard many stereos that are very good at current phase. But one of the biggest issues is an awful lot can't tell you whether they are, given that the entire chain is pretty crucial to the factor. And I'm going to include the AC system in that. But I have to give some serious credit to some manufacturers to be able to make equipment that works so well in the face of adversary of laggy AC systems. They simply are able to make the whole spectrum sound the same in character despite their overall restriction; it's like all the frequencies got robbed of authority of realness leaving a slightly ghost like presentation (which can still be pretty darn good).
 

JackD201

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Apr 20, 2010
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There is a saying that goes every solution brings its own set of problems. While I am a SET lover, high efficiency speakers come with their own obstacles to overcome. The fad of using 50s horns with 30s power has always been a curiosity to me. Why? Let's take a quick look at the history of cinema sound.....

http://filmsound.org/articles/amps/loudspeakers.htm
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Interesting that you pick HP's ramblings as an example of your values when in many ways he was the destroyer of the type of sound you & I like. He was a hypocrite, I don't recall him ever promoting horns and/or other sensitive speakers while apparently knocking low efficiency in this article. All his favorite ones were multi driver monstrosities driven with high powered distorted electronics and the way he tore the sound into bits and pieces while ignoring the whole is the furthest you can get from truth & reality. One visit to his place revealed everything you needed to know about him and his sound.

While important and desired I need more than mere dynamics to suspend disbelief, there's an "X" factor that some equipment and speakers like the two you mention have that I find missing in majority of components. Don't know if you ever heard a Voigt Domestic Corner Horn, it's not particularly dynamic and is very limited in frequency range by today's standards yet you can listen to music with it for hours and forget that there's a system there. For me that sense of ease, naturalness, X factor or whatever one calls it is what brings a bunch of inanimate boxes to life. Of course YMMV...

david

I was thinking again the other day about realism in audio reproduction after re-reading an article in TAS 117 (1999) from HP regarding dynamics and the 4th dimension of soundspace in audio reproduction. He was thinking about how dynamics and specifically restriction in dynamics, plays a role in the reduction of realism from playback systems. He put forward an interesting notion that dynamic restriction in particular frequency bands is one potential cause of sonic character in gear that nominally measures "perfect".

"However, with most home audio components, we get
nothing like the dynamic truth. We can, with the best components,
get overall a very wide (perceived) range of dynamic
contrasts, and these we have called “macrodynamics.” But
these are never distributed equally throughout the frequency
spectrum."

For loudspeakers I have heard this very clearly in the past when one driver doesn't have the same dynamic envelope as others you will get a change in character in the speaker at different output levels. For electronics this becomes a bit harder to understand but could be still a factor, particularly if the power supply is not up to the challenge with demanding material. For electronics, I am still of the mind that distortion and changes with frequency are making the character of a particular piece of gear but I can see how dynamic restriction in certain bands could change the character. What I don't get though is how this would be consistent regardless of level and rather than a preamp or amp always sounding "dark" or "bright" it would only manifest this character when that dynamic restriction is being run into and at lower levels the gear would behave differently. I have not observed this too much other than sometimes the sound gets hard or glassy when gear is pushed too hard, but then it is likely a sharp increase in distortion and not dynamic restriction per se.

Just wanted to through this one out there because I think the idea of HP has some merit on the face of it but I am not sure from a technical POV how it would manifest in electronics. For speakers I have a clearer idea how it can be so.

One interesting point he makes, and I tend to agree with him, is that no low sensitivity speakers can achieve dynamic realism and that there are no standard driver or planar speakers that can truly deliver as well.

"Furthermore, few designers, to my knowledge, use measurements
that allow them to determine the resolution floor
of their speaker systems. Without knowing how well a speaker
system can resolve low-level signals, we can’t have a measurable
idea of its usable dynamic range. We often find ourselves,
particularly with speaker systems of extremely low
efficiency, unable to bring the sound to life until we have
turned the volume up past a comparable level in the hall that
would give us the same sense of impact. Which means we’ll
be playing the system too loudly. Ironically, some of the electrostatic
speakers – I fondly recall the old Beveridge Model 2
– will give us far greater resolving power and allow us to find
equivalents to similar concert-hall levels at low levels, while
denying us realistic playback at high levels; thus we miss the
loudest levels that can make a performance electrifying and its
impact well-nigh overwhelming."

"The return to high-efficiency speakers, prompted by the
rise of triode amplifier designs, is also a return to a more realistic
scale of overall dynamics. Dynamic truth became the
poor stepchild, the Cinderella perhaps, when low-efficiency
speakers, designed for extremely flat frequency response,
became the industry norm. This was occasioned by the rise of
widespread home stereo playback in the late Fifties. That they
were smaller and more compact made them seem more “practical”
and relegated the big corner horns to the swap-and-slop
shops or to the Japanese market, where even today, the James
B. Lansing Ranger Paragon and ElectroVoice Patrician can
still be imported. And as a matter of practical fact, designers
have yet to combine high efficiency with very flat frequency
response in commercially practicable designs. Need I note
that these old behemoth horns could be driven to quite loud
levels with as few as five watts?
What may lie behind the entire triode movement is a
desire for more immediacy – an immediacy that comes from
dynamic “jump” – in the reproduction of sound, a sense that
one is getting closer to the music, to the absolute itself. That
sense of immediacy is difficult to achieve with most conventional
moving-coil speaker systems, and even with high-resolution,
low-efficiency designs like the electrostatics outside a
relatively narrow band of midrange frequencies. If we follow
this line of reasoning to its logical jumping off place, we come
face to face with the argument that the first few watts of
amplifier power may, in fact, sound better (the triode argument),
but maybe not for the reason some suppose. With a
highly efficient speaker, the headroom of the amplifying
device would be greater in the first few watts, and the distortion
the lowest. If immediacy and dynamic headroom are two
heads of the same chicken, then we could say that only with a
convincing reproduction of music’s dynamics could be there a
sense of immediacy and perhaps even intimacy. ***
Thus, we might say that the sense of true immediacy
(not brightness and not exactly presence of the non-living
kind) is, at least in the midband, also another key to the
dynamic trueness of a system’s reproduction."
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
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There is a saying that goes every solution brings its own set of problems. While I am a SET lover, high efficiency speakers come with their own obstacles to overcome. The fad of using 50s horns with 30s power has always been a curiosity to me. Why? Let's take a quick look at the history of cinema sound.....

http://filmsound.org/articles/amps/loudspeakers.htm

It's a lot more than a fad Jack, these companies were pioneers with an honest approach towards sound, sound reproduction and sound engineering not dissimilar from the recording engineers of the era, very different from today's mindset. Your article seems to glorify the worst of the worst, Dolby & THX!

The theater horns are one category there are very fine domestic speakers made from the 50's through the 70's and a few even in 80's that share similar qualities with the great theater horns. It's one thing to hear them with period tube electronics, lovely and natural sound but stick a Lamm ML2 or ML3 on them and boy o boy you have something very, very different. Even the Lamm M1s in combination with with some of these unique vintage speakers can recreate the magic and easy in your case with that great room of yours.

david
 

JackD201

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I just find the time lines odd David. Parallel or Push Pulls were the standard accompanying amplifiers in the 50s, the 3 or 8 Watters from you know who and their rivals were mated with the earlier horns of their same era. That's all. Maybe fad is the wrong word. Trend would be more appropriate. The trend of say 300Bs with say, VOTs or later big blue JBLs I notice is more an American and/or French trend. The Japanese typically use more power than that.

I didn't find that the article glorified anything at all and found it rather matter of factly. It concisely showed the evolution of both the media and the subsequent changes in the reproduction chain. I particularly liked how solutions came about over time as drivers evolved from field coils to fixed magnets, horn type to horn type, how standards were attempted by the council so on and so forth.

What I am trying to point out I guess is that I find the article quoted in the OP to be much too leading. A SET and a High Efficiency pairing does not automatically give one better sound. There's so much more to be considered. Sure the vintage gear loved today are fantastic. We have to remember however that they are still with us because they were fantastic then as they are now. They are the survivors and landfills are filled with their less worthy contemporaries. I think the sweeping generalities of the article belittle the effort, intelligence and artistry of those that made the greats.
 

RogerD

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You need a speaker that is coherent and can literally disappear on the vast majority of classical music. The best dynamic speakers are capable of this,much like horns. Of course the less distortion and noise through the electronics chain will impact the ability to reproduce all what HP is asking for...Clarity,speed,dynamics,high resolution,power,balance. It is a long journey,but worth the trip.
 

Robh3606

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I just find the time lines odd David.

If you are taking about the referenced article some of them are. He has ALTEC Mantaray horns in the 50's. There were the early 80's response to the CD horns from EV and JBL

Rob:)
 

bonzo75

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What I am trying to point out I guess is that I find the article quoted in the OP to be much too leading. A SET and a High Efficiency pairing does not automatically give one better sound.

+ 1

Btw, the Shearer horn is what developed into a Klipsch style bass unit, and also looks the shape of Silbatone speakers?
 

ddk

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I just find the time lines odd David. Parallel or Push Pulls were the standard accompanying amplifiers in the 50s, the 3 or 8 Watters from you know who and their rivals were mated with the earlier horns of their same era. That's all. Maybe fad is the wrong word. Trend would be more appropriate. The trend of say 300Bs with say, VOTs or later big blue JBLs I notice is more an American and/or French trend. The Japanese typically use more power than that.

I didn't find that the article glorified anything at all and found it rather matter of factly. It concisely showed the evolution of both the media and the subsequent changes in the reproduction chain. I particularly liked how solutions came about over time as drivers evolved from field coils to fixed magnets, horn type to horn type, how standards were attempted by the council so on and so forth.

What I am trying to point out I guess is that I find the article quoted in the OP to be much too leading. A SET and a High Efficiency pairing does not automatically give one better sound. There's so much more to be considered. Sure the vintage gear loved today are fantastic. We have to remember however that they are still with us because they were fantastic then as they are now. They are the survivors and landfills are filled with their less worthy contemporaries. I think the sweeping generalities of the article belittle the effort, intelligence and artistry of those that made the greats.

I don't think Morricab was generalizing anything just commenting on role of dynamics in creating the illusion of reality otherwise we all know that you can't just throw boxes together and end up with perfection. You can't fill a 600-700 seat theater with a few watts, 25w-30w is necessary but not in a domestic environment. Don't really know if that article matters here but as Rob pointed out there are mistakes there.

david
 

JackD201

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I don't think Morricab was generalizing anything just commenting on role of dynamics in creating the illusion of reality otherwise we all know that you can't just throw boxes together and end up with perfection. You can't fill a 600-700 seat theater with a few watts, 25w-30w is necessary but not in a domestic environment. Don't really know if that article matters here but as Rob pointed out there are mistakes there.

david

It's the HP article not morricab I was pointing to.
 

jazdoc

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Interesting timing....I was feeling pretty good about a recent cable and power cord upgrade. Then we go to St. Thomas church and listen to the Seattle Jazz Orchestra with a couple of outstanding vocalists perform selections from Ellington's "Sacred Music" cycle. Compared to this set, all attempts to reproduce lifelike dynamics seem rather futile....
 

morricab

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Interesting that you pick HP's ramblings as an example of your values when in many ways he was the destroyer of the type of sound you & I like. He was a hypocrite, I don't recall him ever promoting horns and/or other sensitive speakers while apparently knocking low efficiency in this article. All his favorite ones were multi driver monstrosities driven with high powered distorted electronics and the way he tore the sound into bits and pieces while ignoring the whole is the furthest you can get from truth & reality. One visit to his place revealed everything you needed to know about him and his sound.

While important and desired I need more than mere dynamics to suspend disbelief, there's an "X" factor that some equipment and speakers like the two you mention have that I find missing in majority of components. Don't know if you ever heard a Voigt Domestic Corner Horn, it's not particularly dynamic and is very limited in frequency range by today's standards yet you can listen to music with it for hours and forget that there's a system there. For me that sense of ease, naturalness, X factor or whatever one calls it is what brings a bunch of inanimate boxes to life. Of course YMMV...

david

Well, first of all I would not say it is an example of my values beyond what I said that i consider dynamics a very important element in realism. I found HPs article to very interesting and though provoking on that particluar topic and he had an intersting viewpoint with regard to dynamic restrictions in different frequency bands of the audio spectrum. He may or may not have been all that you say he was or was not but that doesn't diminish the points he has made in this article. Some are valid, some mere speculation, some are simply off. I find his attempts at explaining concepts that he wants to put forward a bold attempt to get down to the heart of the matter even if ultimately he didn't practice completely what he preached...not many do...

You have to remember that he was a creature of his time and that time was the period of Beheamoth speakers and high power SS. Horns and SET were for a very long time out of favor. He did take to them later on though (SETs at least...not really horns).

His attempt at explaining what he heard was for me a good model and a lot better than saying simply that there is an "X" factor in some equipment. What is that X factor? How does it manifest in what we hear? Is it limited in frequency? Is it tonal, dynamic, temporal? What I like about the article is not its accuracy in depicition but more about the insightful PROCESS of thinking about why things sound dark, bright, flat...whatever in a way other than the conventional Frequency response and THD BS arguments. What he doesn't discuss, and I think where he was missing out by not analyzing measurements, is harmonic and IM distortion patterns and the way the influence perception of tonality and space if not so much dynamics.
 

morricab

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Interesting timing....I was feeling pretty good about a recent cable and power cord upgrade. Then we go to St. Thomas church and listen to the Seattle Jazz Orchestra with a couple of outstanding vocalists perform selections from Ellington's "Sacred Music" cycle. Compared to this set, all attempts to reproduce lifelike dynamics seem rather futile....

Yes, really puts it into perspective I would say.
 

morricab

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Ah, my point of contention too :)!

david

Other than your first post to me on this thread, I didn't get the impression that you had contention with my basic premise, only that I used HP to support it.
 

microstrip

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Other than your first post to me on this thread, I didn't get the impression that you had contention with my basic premise, only that I used HP to support it.

I have now read the full article. HP text was supposed to be an essay on the role of dynamics, mainly in the key "lets us suppose that (...) than we could consider that (...) ", but the perspective was mainly centered on electronics. IMHO you are quoting a part that was supposed to mainly address the "first watt" to support a point on speaker preference. We can also consider that the limitation of low sensitivity speakers is that the amplifiers adequate to use them miss the so called "the first watt", no way we can be sure that the limitation in dynamics is intrinsic to low sensitivity speakers.

For example, old Magico speakers were low sensitivity. However one of more dynamic sounds I have ever listened to was the classic M5 coupled to the DartZeel monoblocks delivering almost 1000W at peaks, with great microdynamics and extraordinary realism.

I think that modern amplifiers (and digital sources) will oblige us to take a fresh look at the problem of speaker dynamics.
 

ddk

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Other than your first post to me on this thread, I didn't get the impression that you had contention with my basic premise, only that I used HP to support it.

Yes, just HP not your premise, we're on the same page with importance of dynamics.

david
 

Mike Lavigne

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I have now read the full article. HP text was supposed to be an essay on the role of dynamics, mainly in the key "lets us suppose that (...) than we could consider that (...) ", but the perspective was mainly centered on electronics. IMHO you are quoting a part that was supposed to mainly address the "first watt" to support a point on speaker preference. We can also consider that the limitation of low sensitivity speakers is that the amplifiers adequate to use them miss the so called "the first watt", no way we can be sure that the limitation in dynamics is intrinsic to low sensitivity speakers.

For example, old Magico speakers were low sensitivity. However one of more dynamic sounds I have ever listened to was the classic M5 coupled to the DartZeel monoblocks delivering almost 1000W at peaks, with great microdynamics and extraordinary realism.

I think that modern amplifiers (and digital sources) will oblige us to take a fresh look at the problem of speaker dynamics.

the trick, of course, is to stay musical and natural while delivering all the current required with a tough load or easy one at all SPL's.

that quality (great microdynamics and extraordinary realism) is a characteristic of those dart mono-block's and their exceptional first watt......I've referenced it many times. I think it relates to the combination of 'lot's of power headroom' and circuit minimalism. evidently even plenty of 'headroom' for the M5 Magico's.
 

PeterA

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I have now read the full article. HP text was supposed to be an essay on the role of dynamics, mainly in the key "lets us suppose that (...) than we could consider that (...) ", but the perspective was mainly centered on electronics. IMHO you are quoting a part that was supposed to mainly address the "first watt" to support a point on speaker preference. We can also consider that the limitation of low sensitivity speakers is that the amplifiers adequate to use them miss the so called "the first watt", no way we can be sure that the limitation in dynamics is intrinsic to low sensitivity speakers.

For example, old Magico speakers were low sensitivity. However one of more dynamic sounds I have ever listened to was the classic M5 coupled to the DartZeel monoblocks delivering almost 1000W at peaks, with great microdynamics and extraordinary realism.

I think that modern amplifiers (and digital sources) will oblige us to take a fresh look at the problem of speaker dynamics.

I can attest to extraordinary dynamics in my old Magico Mini IIs as well, even though their frequency range is somewhat restricted. The classic M5 is an excellent speaker.
 

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