Kronos keeps getting better

Chris F

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Spirit, how were you able to separate the performance of the Kronos SCPS from the rest of the components in these various systems under Munich show conditions, let alone make a comparative statement with the TechDas AF-1? Were they demonstrated in the same system?

Does anyone know if the SCPS is available as an add-on for the Spartan model?

No it's not, however Louis has been working on something for the Sparta. I have a prototype linear power supply (from Louis) hooked up to my Sparta right now but I think the final plan is to combine it with a bank of supercapacitors to create a cost reduced version of the SCPS where the capacitors act as a continuous buffer. (vs the SCPS with two alternating banks of capacitors that completely remove the TT from the grid)
 

Tango

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Tang, when are you getting 'round to installing the SAT?
We really need to know if Fremer's opinion is justified
And how happy you are w it
Or whether Kronos-Black Beauty synergy trumps all

I plan to have it install next Tuesday. It could only happen if I can get a highly experienced arm/cart installer to come at that time. I am not good enough to set up this level of arm/cart by myself. To be fair to SAT, I would stll be skeptical if I reach maximum performance from the arm because Marc Gomez never trained anyone here in Thailand to set up his arm. My SAT is one of the first two landed in Thailand. The other one is going to a prospective buyer owning AFO Premium. I think he still hasnt unpacked his Premium yet. Actually my first plan is to have him install it first and I go watch him install it..haha you know what I mean ;). After the setup I can only give general impression. The cart is also the AtlasSL not Opus1. So you guys cannot take my words for it. Will be a while until I am confident to say anything.
 

Tango

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IMG_2865.JPG

Ok, it's up and running now. I waited a while because I was toying with my new Ayon Conquistador Preamp. Can't have too many variables going at the same time. The Conquistador is vivid, lively and crystal clear, still keeps improving and not fully burned.

Anyway, it took only a song to realize how promising the Atlas SL/Sat combo is. I only had time listening for a few hours so I can only state the obvious.

Comparing to the Opus1/Black Beauty which I have listened for more than a year, the Atlas SL/Sat 1) has substantially more details. I listened to Allen Toussant Bright Mississippi, Atr. Mastercut Jazz at the Pawnshop, Melissa Menago Little Crimes and Trio Pim Jacobs Come fly with me. I heard instruments and things (many things) I never heard before. Now I understand what Mr. Fremer was talking about 2) even more transparency with better seperation, New Orleans jazz with many instruments canbe located clearly when they are jaming at the same time. 3) surely more depth but same width and height. Image size is the same. 4) more dynamic. Brass instruments with dynamic swing just pierce at you sounding more real. I use Cessaro horn and I like sound projecting at me when it suppose to. 5) quicker faster. I use SET monoblocs but now it sound almost as fast as Soulution. Never knew that a tonearm can do that. Or is it from the Atlas? The SAT comes with its own wire connecting directly to the phono this could also be the cause. 6) more bass, anchored but not very defined or tight. 6) Melisa's voice has less body and dimensionality, less mids less warmth less meat. The combo is brand new. Once again I only stated the obvious. Even without listening for a long period, but in familiar songs and system, you can not possibly miss all these points.

I had the Opus1/BB for a while. They were excellent allrounder. What I like most about them is when I play Dean Martin. It sounds close to real, very dimensional with great tone. I can smile every time I listen to him with Opus. Once again the Atlas/Sat is very promising. Two months from now I would be able to tell if they match the Opus in what it superb at. I will try putting the Opus1 on SAT at somepoint in time, but that will be a long while.

The SAT is a keeper. In fact I will buy another one.


Tango
 

asiufy

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Tango,

Cool report, you're very brave :)
From your description, it looks like you were describing a Lyra cartridge on any ol' tonearm. Fast? check. Gobs of detail? Check. Piercingly thin and etched? check too :)
I would put the Opus 1 on the SAT, because IMHO, you're hearing the cartridge differences more than the tonearm differences...


cheers,
alex
 

Tango

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Tango,

Cool report, you're very brave :)
From your description, it looks like you were describing a Lyra cartridge on any ol' tonearm. Fast? check. Gobs of detail? Check. Piercingly thin and etched? check too :)
I would put the Opus 1 on the SAT, because IMHO, you're hearing the cartridge differences more than the tonearm differences...


cheers,
alex


Sawasdee Alex,

I agree with you to a certain extent. I have listened to the normal Atlas before many times so I knew what to expect. But the level of detail and transparency the SL/SAT combo throws at me isnt the kind of what you expect the detail/transparency delta of two different carts at $12,000-$15,000 to be. Or maybe my hearing is just not very good. I believe you have an Opus too so you must know very well it is no slouch in term of details.

I am not very good at describing sound. The wording "piercing" may sound negative to readers but thats how trumpet can sound sometime. I was refering more to the transient attack from the brass not the aching to the ear kind of piercing.

Best regards,
Tang
 

PeterA

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Sawasdee Alex,

I agree with you to a certain extent. I have listened to the normal Atlas before many times so I knew what to expect. But the level of detail and transparency the SL/SAT combo throws at me isnt the kind of what you expect the detail/transparency delta of two different carts at $12,000-$15,000 to be. Or maybe my hearing is just not very good. I believe you have an Opus too so you must know very well it is no slouch in term of details.

I am not very good at describing sound. The wording "piercing" may sound negative to readers but thats how trumpet can sound sometime. I was refering more to the transient attack from the brass not the aching to the ear kind of piercing.

Best regards,
Tang

Thanks for the report Tang. I would love to hear the Opus and SAT combination. I agree with Alex, why not change just one variable at a time? You could have mounted the Opus on the new SAT arm on the Kronos, and that way you would have known truly just what the SAT is contributing to your familiar sound. In essence, a comparison between the Black Beauty and SAT. Then, once very familiar with the new SAT, try the new Atlas SL to see how it compares to the Opus. Document what you hear as you go along, and that way it should be easier to learn what is what.

Sure the Opus and Atlas are different, but the Black Beauty and SAT tonearms may be more so. And you also have the captive SAT cable and new preamp variables. You are lucky to own components at this level. Sounds like you are having fun and please keep us updated.

BTW, I think "piercing" is a great word to describe brass. I listened to Cannonball Adderly's Something Else last night on Clear Vinyl 45RPM. Davis' trumpet was explosive, dynamic and crystal clear, indeed, loud and piercing without causing any fatigue. In previous iterations of my system, it could sound piercing, but also quite harsh, distorted, and fatiguing (in an "old" digital kind of way, sorry). This was with my MSL Signature Gold which has been described as sounding similar to the AirTight Opus.
 
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MadFloyd

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I also would like to ask you to compare only the tonearms. As a fellow Kronos Pro/Black Beauty owner, I would truly appreciate the comparison of the two arms without a change in cartridges.
 

asiufy

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Sawasdee Alex,

I agree with you to a certain extent. I have listened to the normal Atlas before many times so I knew what to expect. But the level of detail and transparency the SL/SAT combo throws at me isnt the kind of what you expect the detail/transparency delta of two different carts at $12,000-$15,000 to be. Or maybe my hearing is just not very good. I believe you have an Opus too so you must know very well it is no slouch in term of details.

I am not very good at describing sound. The wording "piercing" may sound negative to readers but thats how trumpet can sound sometime. I was refering more to the transient attack from the brass not the aching to the ear kind of piercing.

Best regards,
Tang

Oh, your descriptions were spot-on, man! You're very good at it :)
And you're right, and I trust you that the difference in transparency should not be that great between two exceptional cartridges at the same price level, so perhaps let's account for the tonearm adding a certain level of transparency to the proceedings.
That said, that's even MORE reason for you to test the Opus on the SAT, as perhaps you'll end up with an incredible, very robust and solid all-around cartridge, but now with extra transparency afforded by the SAT tonearm! :)
Keep us posted!


cheers,
alex
 

Tango

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Sawasdee Peter, MadFloyd, Alex,

Once I switch the Opus on SAT I will let you know. It will take a while though :cool:

The reason I did what I did was:

1. My Opus1/BB setup is at G-spot. Climax. I dont want to spend any more time finetuning the setup again. Hands off.
2. I listened the Atlas quite a few times before. No stranger to its sound. It was impressive enough I bought the SL version.
3. Marc Gomez, the creator of SAT, said his arm is best synergized with Lyra, Ortofon and Clear Audio top models.
4. It's my intention to max out the sound from my Kronos so I took point 3)
5. In case, the SAT sucks (but it didnt) I could easily go back to point 1) Only a matter of switching armboard.
6. I love listening to vinyl, but my works and toddler leave me less time these days. So I skipped the steps most people would do.


Best regards,
Tango
 

PeterA

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Sawasdee Peter, MadFloyd, Alex,

Once I switch the Opus on SAT I will let you know. It will take a while though :cool:

The reason I did what I did was:

1. My Opus1/BB setup is at G-spot. Climax. I dont want to spend any more time finetuning the setup again. Hands off.
2. I listened the Atlas quite a few times before. No stranger to its sound. It was impressive enough I bought the SL version.
3. Marc Gomez, the creator of SAT, said his arm is best synergized with Lyra, Ortofon and Clear Audio top models.
4. It's my intention to max out the sound from my Kronos so I took point 3)
5. In case, the SAT sucks (but it didnt) I could easily go back to point 1) Only a matter of switching armboard.
6. I love listening to vinyl, but my works and toddler leave me less time these days. So I skipped the steps most people would do.


Best regards,
Tango

Thanks Tango. That makes sense. One question, I understand that the Opus is in the perfect spot in the Black Beauty headshell. However, how will you know that you can mount the armboard back in the exact spot on the Kronos table? I have seen the markings back there and I suppose with the right combination of protractor and markings you might be able to get mighty close to the prior position.

Did Marc Gomez elaborate on why his SAT arm is best synergized with those cartridges? Was it developed using those or is it a weight and compliance thing? I read somewhere that my MSL Signature Gold and AirTight Supreme cartridges were developed in part on the SME V or V-12 arm, so I assume there is synergy there too.

It looks like you have the new Kronos power supply. Is it a big upgrade? Oh, yes, keep your toddler away from cartridge cantilevers. Congratulations on parenthood.
 

Tango

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I have seen the markings back there and I suppose with the right combination of protractor and markings you might be able to get mighty close to the prior position.

Did Marc Gomez elaborate on why his SAT arm is best synergized with those cartridges? Was it developed using those or is it a weight and compliance thing? I read somewhere that my MSL Signature Gold and AirTight Supreme cartridges were developed in part on the SME V or V-12 arm, so I assume there is synergy there too.

It looks like you have the new Kronos power supply. Is it a big upgrade? Oh, yes, keep your toddler away from cartridge cantilevers. Congratulations on parenthood.

Sawasdee Peter,

You seem to know the configuration of the Kronos pretty well. Yes, there is a scale on the plinth where the armboard is attached. You just need to remember exactly where the armboard was located on the scale.

Here is Marc's words on arm/cart matching : " The arm has been developed independently of any cartridge and I have never used a specific cartridge to create a synergy with the arm. The cartridges that I recommended you are cartridges that I really like from an engineering point of view and that I know work really well with the arm, based on my own experience and some client’s experience that I very much trust.

The arm will make ALL cartridges perform better and extract more information from the groove with less distortion - the best cartridges will provide the highest performance, that’s why I gave you my recommendations."

The power supply SCPS is a worthy upgrade. It takes smear off the musical images noticably. Peter B did a review on it. I thought the review was pretty accurate. You just have to ignore his enthusiasm and reporting style.

BTW, I used to own a Magico Mini II like you. My only regret to let it go. Stupid of me. It is a classic.

Best regards,
Tang
 

PeterA

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Hello Tango,

That is a very interesting response from Marc. It makes sense and I have had the impression that he is first and foremost engineering driven. I am very impressed from what little I know about the SAT tonearm. I would love to one day hear it in a familiar system. Yes, the Mini II is indeed a classic. I love the way it sounds and looks and it is close to ideal for my listening/living room. I know that there are better speakers out there, and I would love to own a more full range speaker, but for now, I am very satisfied. Do you have any photographs of your room and the rest of your system?
 

gian60

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Also i am very interesting to know the difference between SAT and BB and also the difference you can find on SAT between Opus and Atlas.

I have Opus 1 and my friend Atlas and we have same Bergmann Sindre,and for what i can understand i prefer Opus on low and mid and Atlas on high,but is interesting testing in same arm and system

Thanks and congratulation,i think SAT is a dream for everybody
 

Tango

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Also i am very interesting to know the difference between SAT and BB and also the difference you can find on SAT between Opus and Atlas.

I have Opus 1 and my friend Atlas and we have same Bergmann Sindre,and for what i can understand i prefer Opus on low and mid and Atlas on high,but is interesting testing in same arm and system

Thanks and congratulation,i think SAT is a dream for everybody

Sawasdee Gian,

Two SATs are in Thailand now. One with me on the Kronos. The other is with another heavyweight audiophile on the Air Force One Limited. His other arm is the Telos (not the saphire) with GFS. I have heard his opinions compairing to the Telos. I dont think we could say much out in the forum where there are so many skeptics in term of comparing to other arms. Beside I also like Louis Desjadin personally. The best gesture is to say all of them are excellent, just different and depending on ones preferences. I understand another heavy weight on this forum also has SAT on his AFO. He also didnt comment much except for saying 1. SAT 2. SAT 3. SAT on another tonearm thread. Three more SATs are coming to Thailand.

Regarding Opus1, I think it is like a straight A student. But to me I want to be A+ in some regards trading off with some A- in some other. You know what I mean.

Best regards,
Tang
 

Tango

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Do you have any photographs of your room and the rest of your system?

Sawasdee Peter,

Here are some pics from taken from iPad.

IMG_2885.JPG

My room is always dim.

IMG_2888.JPG

The cd transport is on the floor because I am testing the Soulution 755 phono. Anyone believing the tube phono is inferior to solid stage interm of details and quietness should try some really well design tube. It could prove they havent heard the good one.

Kind regards,

Tang
 

Tango

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Do you have any photographs of your room and the rest of your system?

Sawasdee Peter,

Here are some pics from taken from iPad.

View attachment 32490

My room is always dim.

View attachment 32491

The cd transport is on the floor because I am testing the Soulution 755 phono. Anyone believing the tube phono is inferior to solid stage interm of details and quietness should try some really well design tube. It could prove they havent heard the good one.

Kind regards,

Tang
 

MadFloyd

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Those speakers are absolutely gorgeous! What are they? Also, what is your tubed phono (which I assume you prefer over the 755)?
 

bonzo75

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Those speakers are absolutely gorgeous! What are they? Also, what is your tubed phono (which I assume you prefer over the 755)?

Cessaro Gammas. Do you have bass horns, Tango?
 

Tango

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Those speakers are absolutely gorgeous! What are they? Also, what is your tubed phono (which I assume you prefer over the 755)?

Sawasdee MadFloyd and Bonzo,

Yes, the horns are Cessaro GammaII with front loaded bass horn. I dont have enough space for back loaded. My tube phono is Ayon Spheris. The phono sounds magical very lively and quiet, no need for a stepup, but not very flexible only suitable for very low output mc. It has fixed 70db gain for both inputs.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

gian60

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If you can try CH Precision P1 and also with external power supply X1
Sound is very good and very flexible

It has 2 input in current for MC with low impedance,and 1 input in MM/MC where you can select impedance between 20 to 100.000 ohm and gain from 35 to 70 db.

For exemple i use Opus in current input,GFS in voltage MC input with 400 ohm and Coralstone diamond in MM with his Koetsu MC transformer

Regards
Gianluigi
 

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