Fun thread: dollar to performance ratio for components

amirm

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Reading the other thread "source first" made me think of another related question. What equipment has the best ROI as you climb the cost curve?

I know each one of us will have a different answer to this. So instead of a food fight, let's have a fun exchange of what everyone thinks. I will go first. Be nice to me. :)

Format is the category, followed by grade A through F. "A" means the curve is good meaning you spend more, you will likely get more. "F" means you spend a ton of money more and you might get a little or nothing.

Assume the baseline is a mass market stereo and we go up from there to get more performance. Baseline price: $1,500 for a stereo system.

1. Digital transport: C or D
2. Analog transport: not qualified to say. :)
3. DAC: C
4. Preamp: Don't know :). Perhaps C.
5. Amp: B for the mere reason that spending more will surely get you more power at least if not refinement
6. Speakers: B, maybe A
7. Room treatment/Room EQ: B, maybe A
8. Wires: C or D
9. Power Conditioning: ???
10. Racks, etc: ???
11. Headphones: B

Boy, this is harder than I thought!!! I might have to change some of my answers later. :D
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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Not exactly a response as you were requesting, but I just bought a NuForce uDAC2HP (headphone only) for my computer; easily the best ROI ($99) I've EVER spent on audio equipment.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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1. Digital transport: D
2. Analog transport: I suspect this is an A to those who use them
3. DAC: D
4. Preamp: C for a simple preamp, maybe B if it includes powerful eq or DSP
5. Amp: B (headroom is critical; headroom costs money)
6. Speakers: A
7. Room treatment/Room EQ: C+ if you have a reasonably quiet room, A/B if you don't
8. Wires: D
9. Power Conditioning: F if you have no obvious problem needing filtering
10. Racks, etc: F unless you're isolating a turntable, then it could be the difference between functional or not. I suppose that's an A.
11. Headphones: A+. The right $300+ pair of cans is the best bang for the buck in the hobby.

Tim
 

JackD201

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Given recent experience with HDs, SSDs and a gyro point transport for CDs vs common CD/DVD players my view on digital transports jumped from E to A
Analog Transport definitely an A
DAC, the D part C the A part A
Amps regardless of speaker A
Room Treatment, knowledge is power so if you have the knowhow you can build away and spend far less on both the consultation and labor. It's a big IF though: C
Cables D or even E
Racks anywhere from F to B depending on system SPL capability and where the gear is situated vis-a-vis the loudspeakers and subs. Transports benefit greatly and because I've got tubes in my amps, so do the amps.
Headphones A, they're speakers too. The fact that they're just a few cms to your eardrums makes them easier to assess critically. Unfortunately when it comes to comfort C at best.
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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I am obsessive, so everything is an A, or on its way to being an A. But in reality system building happens in steps. It's more fun and more economical this way.

You want a good room. You want a great speaker (just get the right speaker the first time as they are big and hard to ship/ move). Then a just good enough amp to drive it. A great source. Then a moderate preamp. Then get a great amp. Then a great preamp. Once the big rocks are in place, get power conditioning and cables.
 

rblnr

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May 3, 2010
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1. Digital transport: E, I've yet to hear anything better a $300 SB Touch for s/pdif or Macbook Pro for USB
2. Analog transport: B/C -- I'll guess moreso than a digital transport because the mechanical parts/goals are more expensive to source/achieve than the electrical parts/goals. Along the same lines, I'll guess an analog source system (TT, cart, phono pre) has more ROI than a digital source system (transport/DAC).
3. DAC: C
4. Preamp: C or B for something like a TacT in a bad room
5. Amp: B
6. Speakers: A
7. Room treatment: A, or B in a reasonably damped/diffused (rug,bookshelves, etc.) room.
8. Wires: D at best
9. Power Conditioning: D at best
10. Racks, etc: F except for mechanical TT isolation.
11. Headphones: B in my small sample and I only use on the road
 
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Old Listener

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Jul 18, 2010
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different categories

> Baseline price: $1,500 for a stereo system.

That is not a lot of money. It would be better to spend it on as few items as possible. That would remain true until you get to a much higher price point.

Smart starting point for 2011:

low powered, quiet PC with adequate hard drive space. $ 400- $ 800
onboard sound.
software $ 0-100.
volume control $ 120.
speakers - $ 300 - $ 1000 for powered speakers
cheap interconnect cables - $ 50-100.

Upgrade path:

Backup hard drive - A++
quieter PC, more hard drive space - B (Your need for hard drive space will grow.)
remote control - B-C
soundcard or DAC instead of onboard sound - B
better speakers - A until you get to $ 1000 plus, C - until you get to $ 2500.
Above $ 2500, consider passive speakers and integrated amp or pre-power amp.
room treatment - A - radio Shack or other sound level meter (or mic.)
A - measure freq. response at listening position
and adjust speaker and listening position
B-D - for actual room treatment, depends on the room

Bill
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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Thanks guys. Want to make sure everyone looks at this exercise correctly. :) The letter grade is the angle of the price/performance curve. So an A means if you double the price, fidelity doubles. It is NOT how important that component is to overall audio fidelity.
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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Hi

Headphones A++++ .. I would dare say that a $200 headphones surpass most speakers at any price
CD Transport .. Seems to me that it is fast becoming a non-issue... A decent Music server (like the one Gary Koh detailed in this forum) if one takes the time to build it will be around $500, likely surpasses any if not all transport you care to name ... in my book that is an A component...
Preamp my Jury is out but for now, call it a B
Amp B
Speakers and Room treatment: A (must be taken together .. the best speaker in a bad room will likely sound bad)
Cables F
Power C
Racks ..Please read Jack D201 post in this thread ...
Analog Transport ... It depends on how much you feel about analog ... A few years ago I would have given it a B... Right now ... I would give it an incomplete ... I don't care enough
 

Occam

[Industry Expert]
Dec 15, 2010
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Thanks guys. Want to make sure everyone looks at this exercise correctly. :) The letter grade is the angle of the price/performance curve. So an A means if you double the price, fidelity doubles. It is NOT how important that component is to overall audio fidelity.

Given a $1,500 system my maximal bang for the buck improvements would be -

1. Change whatever pos residential grade outlet that is feeding your system to a Hubbell HBL5262 hard duty, specification grade duplex outlet, $13 at stayonline.com These are very good outlets subjectively, for those who believe in such things, and for the objectivist's, it offers a very tight retention of plugs, and the act of replacement requires tightening of the outlets connections.

2. Throw a blanket over it..... many small systems also have a monitor/tv sitting between the speakers. Throwing a repurposed blanket over the tv substantially minimizes reflections, but can be problematic if simultaneously watching the tv.

3. For components with detachable IEC 320 mains inlets, replace the stock cord with an original Volex 17604, the Mexican sourced brass bladed ones, not the new Chinese sourced nickel plated bladed version, for about $12. Again, to a subjectivist, they 'sound' better, and for the objectivist, for their 14ga construction and properly implemented shielding with the shield spaced away from hot and neutral.

That is my $37, 'do no harm' recommendation. If you're looking at the 1st derivative of cost/benefit, those minor, incremental expenditures provide IMO, substantial subjective benefit. While its possible to construct an excellent power conditioning unit for less than $50 (the Felix project over at audiocircle.com) its diy and not appropriate for the majority of audiophiles. But low cost isolation transformers to power source components can be bought on eBay for little money and generally provide a large dollop of improvement.

FWIW,
Paul
 
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dougsmith

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There are different $ slopes for the different items... here is my take. I'd say diminishing returns begin in the "B" category and start to get significant after the "C": category (of course you have to pick the right components at each of those price points). You can see I am not a big fan of super expensive components.
 

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MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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There are different $ slopes for the different items... here is my take. I'd say diminishing returns begin in the "B" category and start to get significant after the "C": category (of course you have to pick the right components at each of those price points). You can see I am not a big fan of super expensive components.

So are you saying one needs to spend 2-3 X the amount on digital to get the same return as analog :)
 

Phelonious Ponk

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We seem to be having trouble staying on task :).

Tim
 

dougsmith

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Take it with a grain of salt... I could be way off the mark there. I admit I don't know very much about the current state of analog sources since I don't make much use of them (although I have an analog CD player and an old turntable that I hardly ever use).

If you look at dollar amounts and slope of my cures, Tim, I suppose I am rating speakers in Amir's "A" category, a receiver or sum of low cost components as "B", digital transport as "B", analog sources as "C', optional accessories like power conditioners, racks and headphones as a 'D" and wires as an "F".
 

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Gedlee

WBF Technical Expert
Jul 21, 2010
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Maybe I'm a little biased, but my system (excluding the room which was custom built with all solid oak woodwork - that gets expensive) is about 90% speakers, 8% electronics, 2% Home depot wires. But I'm just cheap. My HT screen is a bed sheet.
 

RBFC

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Maybe I'm a little biased, but my system (excluding the room which was custom built with all solid oak woodwork - that gets expensive) is about 90% speakers, 8% electronics, 2% Home depot wires. But I'm just cheap. My HT screen is a bed sheet.

Honey, can we please sleep on the sheet tonight and put the darn flat screen on the wall? The bezel hurts my back.

Earl, I hope I get to hear some of your speakers sometime soon.

Lee
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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IMHO, with most components, it is A until some point of diminishing returns (PODR) - and then the slope starts to tail down.

For example (and this is from someone who sells $3000 speaker cables), cables are an A until PODR at about $200. For example, Mogami balanced interconnects, Blue Jeans speaker cables, Black Cat digital interconnect, Belden 83803 power cords, etc. can be difficult to beat.

Other PODR:
  • DACs - $2,500
  • Amplifiers - $4,000
  • Speakers - $8,000
  • Cartridges - $380

Sorry, Amir for turning this thread the other way.
 

JackD201

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Interesting. What might that $380 cart be Gary? I have a second turntable (P5) for use in the common area that I don't want to spend much on.
 

JackD201

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Ah the old workhorse. I was hoping for something more exotic but I'd have to agree that they are very, very good for the money indeed.
 

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