Dedicated Lines or power conditioning

Ron Resnick said:

I have decided to "split the baby" by using dedicated lines for everything and installing a low resistance chemical ground, but without system-wide isolation transformer/balanced AC, and then using a Torus isolation transformer/balanced AC device for only the turntable and phono preamp.

This set-up forfeits the single point of ground benefit of a wall-mounted isolation transformer/balanced power device which powers every component, but assures that the amplifiers will not be current-limited by too long a power cable run to a wall-mounted transformer, yet will provide the benefits of an isolation transformer and balanced power to the sensitive, low-signal-level front-end.

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the problem with this approach is noise in your amplifier. 'street' power grid performance is not predictable. do you feel lucky today?

i have balanced power outlets from my Equi=tech 10WQ isolation transformer, sitting next to my direct outlets from my standard (non-isolated) power grid.

game, set, match to the balanced, isolated power outlets both for my amplifiers, and sources. it's smacks you right in the nose with the difference including better dynamics. power supplies perform better with cleaner power more consistent.

and I'm out in the mountains, away from any industry, in a newer housing development, supplied by hydro-power, with my own dedicated transformer just for my home at the street. so the local infrastructure is ideal. yet the delta of advantage is great.

you will never know what you will be missing until you actually compare one approach side by side with another.

as far as a dedicated transformer for each line that is not real world. lots of little baby/toy transformers/conditioners will more than likely add noise.

get a big boy transformer.

what you need is a large enough transformer to have proper head room for amplifiers.....ideally a transformer size about double of what you calculate as the max you need, but then filters at the wall panel (to prevent back flow of noise) on the circuits/outlets that are involved with digital. i have 3 filtered circuits/outlets; one for my digital front end, and one each for the class D subwoofer amps in my bass towers.

Mike, I agree w you
I've moved from a London apartment in the midst of hash and noise from broadband 24/7 thru out the building, and light industrial/booster stations nearby, to the middle of nowhere (comparatively, not QUITE as isolated as you), w very few neighbours, and no commercial production of noise locally, and despite the sound right out of the wall being great to start with, the improvement using my balanced transformer, now w dedicated lines, is as stellar as in London when I went from conditioned mains to balanced mains

Don C said:

Micro volts from very strong EMI/RFI on the powerline branches is insignificant, even without AC regeneration!

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I suspect, what input AC transformer of power supply unit is good low frequency filter for radio frequencies. After transformer and diodes placed condencers, that kill radio frequencies too. More significant next unit's radiation and internal power line's pulsations/noise.
Pulse PSU is big source of RF radiation itself.

Yuri Korzunov said:

I suspect, what input AC transformer of power supply unit is good low frequency filter for radio frequencies. After transformer and diodes placed condencers, that kill radio frequencies too. More significant next unit's radiation and internal power line's pulsations/noise.
Pulse PSU is big source of RF radiation itself.

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That's confusing to read. Diodes generate RF on their own, for one. Pulse? Are you trying to describe a linear PSU that has 60hz cycles?

stehno said:

9. Should you own superior line conditioners, unless you have a high-current power amplifier, there should be zero need for dedicated lines.

Why? Noise and problems are all voltage, even vibrations, and voltage can only be divided. For this reason no solution can "divide by 0" so at no point are you not getting cumulative benefits. Now which gets the most bang for $, that's another matter.

10. Active line conditioners can rob power from a high-current drawing amplifier and thus render the amp as flat or lifeless whereas passive line conditioners should not.

This really isn't true because of them being active. There's a lot of reasons why some active units may not sound very good, but it's not because they use some power. I've never seen an active unit where the circuitry uses enough power to make it a concern since our needs are amply met generally, particularly with dedicated lines that don't feature as much harmonics and such to rob power. Do I recommend an active units? Nope, none. There's units that have some active circuitry like the SurgeX that has a couple indicator lights, but it's not an active device unless it's preventing your stuff from blowing up during the actual moment of say lightening.

Furthermore the assumption that passive are entirely lossless isn't true. Ideal ones are close (infinitesimal), but the truth is many, many, of them actually make less available current peak and/or overall. In fact some make less available peak power than active regenerators by wide margins. A bunch of them are MORE likely to rob current than most active solutions I've seen because the designers simply don't understand the complexity of the parts interactions as well as noise/rf/harmonics on the AC lines.

11. Digital components (or digital anything) supposedly generate a bi-directional digital noise that goes back into the wall and will induce its sonic harm onto other components.

Sure can, but you're leaving out any device with small transformers too. Really anything can have some products of noise, but digital and small transformer based devices are the biggest culprits.

Those intimately familar with superior forms of AC mgmt performance or at a minimum, superior line conditioners' performance, will usually struggle listening to any system for more than 10 or 20 minutes that does not employ superior AC mgmt methods.

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I indeed do struggle to listen very long without AC treatment.

Folsom said:

I indeed do struggle to listen very long without AC treatment.

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Folsom, based on my limited experience:

9. If superior line conditioners are doing their job of cleansing, purifying, filtering, or conditioning the line, what would dedicated lines provide that the superior line conditioners haven't already provided? Excluding high-current drawing amps for the moment.

I'm not saying that superior line conditioners absolutely perfect noisy AC. But aside from minimizing some noise generating appliances, dimmers, etc elsewhere in the house, dedicated lines do absolutely zero else toward conditioning the noisy AC. After all, it's just Romex wire. Moreover, superior line conditioners address both noisy AC from street as well as AC noise generated in the home.

For example. I have 4 dedicated circuits and cryo'ed lines leading to my listening room with passive, dedicated, and bi-directional filtering superior line conditioners for each component on its own dedicated line. When I would prepare for an audio show I would plug everything (including show lights) into a single outlet with one power cable attached to an cryo'ed audio-grade power strip and then plug my line conditioners to the power strip. I would do this because hotel rooms generally just have a single 20-amp circuit for each room just to ensure things would be up to snuff for the show. In the handful of times I did this preparation and once warmed up I never noticed any audible differences. Not saying there weren't any sonic differences but I never noticed any.

10. You're right at least about the passive line conditioners as being passive certainly is no guarantee they will not draw power unto themselves and away from the amplifier. But if a passive line conditioner does draw power unto itself, it usually is a very small perhaps negligible current draw.

As for active line conditioners, it should be a given that they will draw significantly more current than perhaps any passive LC. Even small current draws away from a high-current drawing amp can rob just enough power from some amplifiers to render them flat and lifeless.

11. I agree. But I was speaking specifically to digital noise in particular because it tends to be a bi-directional noise.

Folsom said:

Pulse? Are you trying to describe a linear PSU that has 60hz cycles?

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I found English term - «Switched-mode power supply». In Russian it is "Pulse PSU".

As far as I know, any kind of AC to DC PSU contains diodes for AC to DC and capacitors fixing pulses.

Folsom said:

Diodes generate RF on their own, for one.

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Do you mean conversion of sine AC spectrum to half period sine’s spectrum? And that spectrum go to analog and digital parts of supplied device via DC power wires?

It is not matter, because after diodes placed condensers directly. So circuit there have no pulsing. «Have no pulsing» here is «pulse amplitude in range, allowable for current device by technical requirements».

stehno said:

Folsom, based on my limited experience:

10. You're right at least about the passive line conditioners as being passive certainly is no guarantee they will not draw power unto themselves and away from the amplifier. But if a passive line conditioner does draw power unto itself, it usually is a very small perhaps negligible current draw.

As for active line conditioners, it should be a given that they will draw significantly more current than perhaps any passive LC. Even small current draws away from a high-current drawing amp can rob just enough power from some amplifiers to render them flat and lifeless.

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Actually that's what I'm getting at, it IS possible for passives to cause current restriction far exceeding active regenerators. And some do! Whether it's peak or overall varies, but it's true. They shouldn't but it happens. The complex nature of AC...

Yuri Korzunov said:

I found English term - «Switched-mode power supply». In Russian it is "Pulse PSU".

As far as I know, any kind of AC to DC PSU contains diodes for AC to DC and capacitors fixing pulses.




Do you mean conversion of sine AC spectrum to half period sine’s spectrum? And that spectrum go to analog and digital parts of supplied device via DC power wires?

It is not matter, because after diodes placed condensers directly. So circuit there have no pulsing. «Have no pulsing» here is «pulse amplitude in range, allowable for current device by technical requirements».

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I'll have to remember that when talking to Russians. I guess calling it pulsing makes sense.

Folsom said:

I'll have to remember that when talking to Russians. I guess calling it pulsing makes sense.

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Most importantly, what we talk about single thing