Dedicated Lines or power conditioning

Folsom · Mar 22, 2017

The Entreq is not a power conditioner. It's a grounding device to employ the same effects their boxes do, farther up stream towards the power source. It does feature high quality sockets that are much better than normal ones.

I don't want the sharks on me, so I won't pursue explanation further on the Entreq publicly so don't ask. The secret has been posted, unknowingly, already.

microstrip · Mar 22, 2017

Folsom said:
(...) The secret has been posted, unknowingly, already.

Can you give us a link to that post?

DaveyF · Mar 22, 2017

Last summer I underwent a major upgrade of my power delivery system. The most difficult part was pulling up the driveway and the street to replace the main feeder line with a new line cable, in special conduit, capable of supporting 500 amps. We also replaced the corroded connections with new copper at the main transformer in the street. I think this was a major upgrade and certainly seems to be something that is overlooked by most who only upgrade to a dedicated line from the main breaker box. IMHO, a new main breaker box is also usually required, one that has the ability to insure correct grounding. In my case we installed two copper rods about ten feet deep into the ground and spaced about six feet apart. The last upgrade was the 10/2 dedicated line with a 20 amp outlet. As an aside, I also installed a solar system to supply power during the day...although this was independent of the audio upgrades.
One dedicated line does the trick in my system.

Ron Resnick · Mar 22, 2017

I have decided to "split the baby" by using dedicated lines for everything and installing a low resistance chemical ground, but without system-wide isolation transformer/balanced AC, and then using a Torus isolation transformer/balanced AC device for only the turntable and phono preamp.

This set-up forfeits the single point of ground benefit of a wall-mounted isolation transformer/balanced power device which powers every component, but assures that the amplifiers will not be current-limited by too long a power cable run to a wall-mounted transformer, yet will provide the benefits of an isolation transformer and balanced power to the sensitive, low-signal-level front-end.

DaveyF · Mar 22, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
I have decided to "split the baby" by using dedicated lines for everything and installing a low resistance chemical ground, but without system-wide isolation transformer/balanced AC, and then using a Torus isolation transformer/balanced AC device for only the turntable and phono preamp.

Are you going to upgrade the service from the street transformer ( and the transformer itself) to your service panel...I did find that to be very beneficial, albeit very expensive.

Ron Resnick · Mar 22, 2017

No - what do you even ask for?

Is the local power company likely to quote a price to accomplish whatever you have in mind?

DaveyF · Mar 22, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
No - what do you even ask for?

Is the local power company likely to quote a price to accomplish whatever you have in mind?

The local power company will only assist you with connection...the cost is going to be on you. At least that was my experience.
I ask, as IME, the upgrade of the power delivery prior to the mains box was a significant and easily heard benefit. Who knows how old your feeder line and transformer connections are at the street? Remember, everything is only as good as the weakest link!

Ron Resnick · Mar 23, 2017

I appreciate the thought, Davey.

But, in the context of a high-capacity, wall-mounted Equi-Tech or Torus Power isolation transformer, you are not going to be able to convince me that I care about what's going on on the utility side of the transformer, when I have transformer-isolated and ground-isolated and balanced AC coming out on the system side.

DaveyF · Mar 23, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
I appreciate the thought, Davey.

But, in the context of a high-capacity, wall-mounted Equi-Tech or Torus Power isolation transformer, you are not going to be able to convince me that I care about what's going on on the utility side of the transformer, when I have transformer-isolated and ground-isolated and balanced AC coming out on the system side.

Ron, the feeder line and the connection at the transformer are not on the utility side. (At least in the S.Calif area). Agreed that the line prior to the transformer is utility and we have no control on that, but again, IME, the upgrade of the supply/feeder line and the connection to the transformer does present a nice benefit. I also understand that very few a'philes have gone to the extreme of upgrading the supply/ feeder line in the street. IMO, this line is a factor in the overall capability of your total power system.

BMCG · Mar 23, 2017

On a similar journey ...and readily acknowledge am cadging a page or two out of Marc's (spiritofmusic) approach..in particular the use of Westwick balanced transformers (currently on audition)

FWIW...Torus isolation transformers do not, for the majority of their product portfolio, furnish downstream balanced power..that is a distinction versus the Equi=tech and Westwick offerings.

Also it is not simply a matter of cleaning up the supply....mitigating noise being dumped back into the mains....should be a part of the "clean-up"...apologies if that is stating the obvious.

In my quest ...should have, inside a fortnight, the new Shunyata Triton v3 (Schuko), inclusive a Shunyata loom, and a Audioquest Niagara to compare.

SCAudiophile · Mar 23, 2017

DaveyF said:
Last summer I underwent a major upgrade of my power delivery system. The most difficult part was pulling up the driveway and the street to replace the main feeder line with a new line cable, in special conduit, capable of supporting 500 amps. We also replaced the corroded connections with new copper at the main transformer in the street. I think this was a major upgrade and certainly seems to be something that is overlooked by most who only upgrade to a dedicated line from the main breaker box. IMHO, a new main breaker box is also usually required, one that has the ability to insure correct grounding. In my case we installed two copper rods about ten feet deep into the ground and spaced about six feet apart. The last upgrade was the 10/2 dedicated line with a 20 amp outlet. As an aside, I also installed a solar system to supply power during the day...although this was independent of the audio upgrades.
One dedicated line does the trick in my system.

That is a great upgrade no doubt. Wish I could approval for that from the HOA; the aluminum large-gauge mains wire they utilize from the transformer to the house in this country is "shite" to say the least. You're the 3rd person I know that has been able to, and has gone through the pain and expense of replacing the main-line run to house itself; my hat is off to you for this major upgrade! Wish I could do it here! All I can complain about outside the house is that I compelled Duke Energy to install a new transformer (splits for 4 houses) at the corner of the property about 9 months ago given noise/distortion/other problems I was able to get an electrician to help me document and the fact that I've put in dual ground rods with CADWELD bonding of large gauge, solid core copper for the grounding wire into the meterhead and main house-panel plus everything I've been able to do beyond that into the house. I would give my eye teeth (to use an old saying) to be able to rip out that aluminum conductor garbage between the house and the transformer but it's a no-go.

+1 on another vote for power conditioners; after many iterations and steps up and steps sideways over the years, I'm extremely happy with my Isotek EVO3 SIGMAS and TITAN units; best I've ever heard out of a very long list including several balanced power setups I've owned that just did not quite get it done. In one case (with an Esoteric P-03 Universal player and a Lumagen scaler), balanced power actually caused IRE levels for color calibration, gamma behavior and acuity to bounce all around because the video boards and upscalers in both absolutely needed to see 60/0 and not 60/60 power signatures. Before going with balanced power make sure your equipment can deal with seeing 60/60 instead of 60/0!

microstrip · Mar 23, 2017

BMCG said:
(...) FWIW...Torus isolation transformers do not, for the majority of their product portfolio, furnish downstream balanced power..that is a distinction versus the Equi=tech and Westwick offerings.

We must separate input and output of isolation transformers when referring to "balanced".

We have to consider that the situation is different in Europe (230V) and US (115v). In Europe 230 V is non balanced, in the US people having 230V have balanced power coming from a 115V split single-phase system. So balanced input has different "meanings" and properties in the two sides of the Altantic.

Concerning balanced output, if the isolation transformer is close to your system, as it happens in typical audiophile situations, the only real advantage is minimizing leakage through the IEC mains filters capacitor to ground or leakage from primary to secondary in power transformers. Careful selection of plug phases can reduce these inconvenient aspects when using non balanced power.

Torus isolation transformers are more than isolating transformers - they have a proprietary tuned technique to cancel noise inside the transformer. If I ever get such a system, they would be my obvious choice.

Folsom · Mar 23, 2017

I've also heard better results from isolation than balanced. I'm not saying it's not possible for any to work great, but as of thus far that's the notion for what's available.

Don C · Mar 24, 2017

I use an old PurePower AC regenerator and get dead silent 120 volts. Mine was made in Taiwan before PurePower Canada manufactured them, and became corrupt.

If you trace the ac line outlet back to the breaker box, and shut off everything connected that line, you will have a dedicated line for free.

Folsom · Mar 24, 2017

Don C said:
I use an old PurePower AC regenerator and get dead silent 120 volts. Mine was made in Taiwan before PurePower Canada manufactured them, and became corrupt.

If you trace the ac line outlet back to the breaker box, and shut off everything connected that line, you will have a dedicated line for free.

Except all those extra wires branching out act like an anetenna.

Frank750 · Mar 24, 2017

My system became unlistenable for a long time until I installed one of these. All of my problems were solved after a very prolonged search for the culprit.

Don C · Mar 25, 2017

Folsom said:
Except all those extra wires branching out act like an anetenna.

Micro volts from very strong EMI/RFI on the powerline branches is insignificant, even without AC regeneration!

Jeffy · Mar 25, 2017

Frank750 that is what I was going to do as well. It's hard to spend the money for this and not know if the difference is that great. I think the box you bought is probably over 6,000.00 not including the installation.

stehno · Mar 25, 2017

Jeffy said:
I have always wondered why people who have say 5 or 6 dedicated lines and then buy a power conditioner. This defeats the purpose of the dedicated lines as now everything is plugged into only one dedicated line. Doesn't it make sense to have an isolating transformer for each dedicated line? How come there are no companies making these?

Very observant of you as I've also wondered about that myself (or close to that) based on some of the product offerings I've seen.

Since dedicated lines vs power conditioners have little to do with the other as does power conditioners vs isolation transformers, I suspect the subject matter you're really questioning is what constitutes proper AC mgmt or electrical mgmt for our playback systems? Better yet, what's considered superior forms vs inferior forms of AC mgmt?

That said, I doubt any two people here will have similar takes on what superior AC mgmt may be. And as your question implies, and I agree, it often times matters little whether anyone offering an opinion on the matter is a manufacturer / designer of AC mgmt products or an enthusiast.

That said, I'd like offer my observations of AC mgmt based on my experiences.

Some things I've learned in my limited experience include:

0. Always assume if there's a proper or superior method, you can bet dollars-to-donuts there are plenty of improper / inferior methods.

1. AC coming in from the street (in the U.S.) is by its very nature noisy. It's universal regardless of how near or far you live from a power sub-station.

2. Since AC coming in from the street is noisy, unless filtered, conditioned, cleansed, etc. it will significantly compromise your system's level of musicality.

3. Common ground in some-to-many homes induce noise into the AC and hence into your components.

4. Components usually will sound noticably more musical if the grounds have been lifted / floated or perhaps share an isolated ground.

5. Components can sometimes sound even a tad more pristine if all but one of the component's grounds have been lifted.

6. Dedicated lines have nothing to do with eliminating any of this universal AC noise coming in from the street.

7. Dedicated lines are good for two things:

a) Minimize noise generated elsewhere in the home originating from appliances, dimmers, etc.
b) Ensure high-current drawing amps have enough juice for complex and/or dynamic passages.

8. Superior line conditioners (that actually work) are rare. Some-to-many aren't worth owning as they either do nothing (rare) or induce their own sonic harm (many).

9. Should you own superior line conditioners, unless you have a high-current power amplifier, there should be zero need for dedicated lines.

10. Active line conditioners can rob power from a high-current drawing amplifier and thus render the amp as flat or lifeless whereas passive line conditioners should not.

11. Digital components (or digital anything) supposedly generate a bi-directional digital noise that goes back into the wall and will induce its sonic harm onto other components.

12. Some say (I agree) that bi-directional digital noise will go all the way back to the service panel and even induce harm onto other dedicated circuits/lines.

13. Passive, dedicated, and bi-directional filtering line conditioners (that actually benefit) are the best way to go.

14. The more popular the manufacturer's name, the more I'm apt to stay away from their line conditioning products as they usually are inferior.

15. Wire / electrical parts will vibrate when current is passing thru them and that induces distortions.

16. Like components, wire / electrical parts performance' can be much improved when their vibrations are properly controlled.

17. Like components, superior line conditioners' performance can be significantly improved when proper vibration controlling methods are applied to the line conditioners.

18. Slightly off topic, but since we are talking superior / inferior AC mgmt, properly (yes, there's improper here too) cryogenically treating every wire (including Romex), cable, or electrical part possible can provide much sonic benefit.

Those intimately familar with superior forms of AC mgmt performance or at a minimum, superior line conditioners' performance, will usually struggle listening to any system for more than 10 or 20 minutes that does not employ superior AC mgmt methods.

Frank750 · Mar 25, 2017

Jeffy said:
Frank750 that is what I was going to do as well. It's hard to spend the money for this and not know if the difference is that great. I think the box you bought is probably over 6,000.00 not including the installation.

$11,000 + install, it's the 90A version with AVR and TVSS options. But for me it was worth every penny. Electrical problems around me had rendered my system unlistenable. I tried every Shunyata, Audience and a couple of other conditioners I can't remember, but they would only mask the problem. Now, every time I turn on my system, I have beautiful music instead of paralysis by analysis. Best money I've ever spent related to audio.

I got a sample when I borrowed a small Torus rack mount unit from my dealer. I heard true potential when I plugged everything, including my amps, into it. Cleaned up some of the problem I was experiencing. After that, I was fairly confident the panel would at least get me to where I could listen without hurting my ears. But of course I got a lot more than that.

Dedicated Lines or power conditioning

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