Dedicated powerlines, how many?

antelion · Mar 18, 2017

Hello,

as i moved to a new place which boasts a sever lack in available outlets i am forced to install new power lines for the audio system (a thought which i anyway considered also based on the various threads regarding dedicated power here and elsewhere).

My question is on suggestions/experience regarding the # of lines. As i run rather "lower" powered amps (7-20 Watts), could these be also fed from with the source/pre line to make it two lines (1 digital, one rest) or would you still go with a dedicated line for the power amps (thus 3 in total)?

Side consideration is the "power conditioner" (i use a Bybee) which then would not be available anymore for the power amps ( so either running w/o or need for an additional unit.

Thanks for your thoughts
antelion

CGabriel · Mar 18, 2017

antelion said:
Hello,

as i moved to a new place which boasts a sever lack in available outlets i am forced to install new power lines for the audio system (a thought which i anyway considered also based on the various threads regarding dedicated power here and elsewhere).

My question is on suggestions/experience regarding the # of lines. As i run rather "lower" powered amps (7-20 Watts), could these be also fed from with the source/pre line to make it two lines (1 digital, one rest) or would you still go with a dedicated line for the power amps (thus 3 in total)?

Side consideration is the "power conditioner" (i use a Bybee) which then would not be available anymore for the power amps ( so either running w/o or need for an additional unit.

Thanks for your thoughts
antelion

1 dedicated line.
Install the largest gauge wiring allowable by your local code.
Install highest rating circuit breaker in the electrical mains panel.

Single-ended tube amps are particularly sensitive to ground loops.
Installing multiple lines very often creates a ground loop problem.
You don't need the current capacity of multiple lines.

RogerD · Mar 18, 2017

I would at least run 2 20 amp circuits with 10-2 wire(2 primary,1 ground) if you have room in your panel,dedicated and grounded to code. That would give 4 outlets for 2 amplifiers,preamp,Dac,and power unit,so you can plug in multiple components.

Folsom · Mar 18, 2017

1 JPS in-wall wire would be my choice.

You'd be lucky to even use 1amp per device, out of 20A service.

antelion · Mar 19, 2017

Thank you all for your suggestions (forgot, but do not believe it makes a difference. I am having 220V and proper neutral implementation as "code").
Would it still make sense if because of the tube amps source/pre/amps run on one line to separate the digital part or does that also run the risk of ground loops?

best

stehno · Mar 19, 2017

antelion said:
Hello,

as i moved to a new place which boasts a sever lack in available outlets i am forced to install new power lines for the audio system (a thought which i anyway considered also based on the various threads regarding dedicated power here and elsewhere).

My question is on suggestions/experience regarding the # of lines. As i run rather "lower" powered amps (7-20 Watts), could these be also fed from with the source/pre line to make it two lines (1 digital, one rest) or would you still go with a dedicated line for the power amps (thus 3 in total)?

Side consideration is the "power conditioner" (i use a Bybee) which then would not be available anymore for the power amps ( so either running w/o or need for an additional unit.

Thanks for your thoughts
antelion

Here's a note I just posted the other day about dedicated line(s) and maybe this will help:

"1. Noisy AC coming in from the street is universal and a dedicated line does nothing to minimize that except to ensure the same amount of noisy AC coming in from the street remains dedicated to the dedicated line(s).

2. Whether shared or dedicated, digital equipment induces a bi-direction digital noise that goes back out into the AC and some say all the way back to the service panel and induces its digital hash sonic harm on other components. In fact, since you would then own two digital Esoteric units potentially inducing bi-directional noise elsewhere into the system, the implication is you would then have one more new problem to address just with the bi-directional digital noise.

3. A dedicated line or lines serve only 2 purposes at most:

a) Ensure high-current drawing amps have enough juice for complex and/or dynamic passages.
b) Help minimize some of the distortions caused within the house from appliances, dimmers, etc.

4. IME, the only remedy for 1 and 2 above is superior line conditioning (if you can find such a one) that includes bi-directional filtering to prevent the bi-directional digital noise from going back into the wall. In fact, with superior line conditioning everywhere, there should only be one reason for having any dedicated lines at all and that's to ensure a high-current drawing amp always has sufficient power."

If per chance your line conditioner is of a superior quality, implying that it actually does an excellent job of cleansing/purifying the noisy AC, then using it for all of your components i.e. digital and analog, the sonic benefits should easily outweigh the digital noise induced on other components from any digital components you may employ.

Yuri Korzunov · Mar 19, 2017

antelion said:
Hello,

as i moved to a new place which boasts a sever lack in available outlets i am forced to install new power lines for the audio system (a thought which i anyway considered also based on the various threads regarding dedicated power here and elsewhere).

My question is on suggestions/experience regarding the # of lines. As i run rather "lower" powered amps (7-20 Watts), could these be also fed from with the source/pre line to make it two lines (1 digital, one rest) or would you still go with a dedicated line for the power amps (thus 3 in total)?

Side consideration is the "power conditioner" (i use a Bybee) which then would not be available anymore for the power amps ( so either running w/o or need for an additional unit.

Thanks for your thoughts
antelion

All these things should be done under control spectrum of output signal at pream or power amp.

Otherwise how to control what something was improved?

Without measurement tools we can control noise floor in speakers only. If there nothing except white noise or nothing changed - don't worry and use power line that available.
Power line don't impact to sound transparency because between the line and analog part used power supply unit. For digital parts power line mean nothing.

Only voltage stability in range allowable by audio apparatus may be important.

Folsom · Mar 20, 2017

Yuri Korzunov said:
All these things should be done under control spectrum of output signal at pream or power amp.

Otherwise how to control what something was improved?

Without measurement tools we can control noise floor in speakers only. If there nothing except white noise or nothing changed - don't worry and use power line that available.
Power line don't impact to sound transparency because between the line and analog part used power supply unit. For digital parts power line mean nothing.

Only voltage stability in range allowable by audio apparatus may be important.

I can't decode that. But thinking the quality of AC power doesn't affect something is nonsense.

I to recommend a power conditioner but there's only one commercial one I can recommend with some confidence. Everything I see has faults. Glad I'm using my prototype...

stehno · Mar 20, 2017

Folsom said:
I can't decode that. But thinking the quality of AC power doesn't affect something is nonsense.

I to recommend a power conditioner but there's only one commercial one I can recommend with some confidence. Everything I see has faults. Glad I'm using my prototype...

Yes, it seems some feel they need to put on their rocket scientist hat before they can recognize audible improvements.

You're exactly right about so few line conditioners worth owning. And since it seems most do nothing or worse induce their sonic harm, it's almost like looking for a needle in a haystack. I'm aware of only two companies who manufacture supeior line conditioners and one of them is the now defunct Foundation Research. But I'm sure there's a few other mfg'ers too of product worth owning.

Yuri Korzunov · Mar 20, 2017

Folsom said:
I can't decode that. But thinking the quality of AC power doesn't affect something is nonsense.

Pair of wires, that go to supplied audio device, may impact to loses voltage. There need calculate diameter of the wires by material, length and current value for providing allowable temperature of heat (fire hazard). It is not relate to sound.

Impact of AC have many variables: quality of AC, quality of power supply unit (PSU), quality of power wiring between and inside analog and digital modules, that connected to the PSU, shielding, grounding.

All these thing work in complex.

As example, we have fine power supply unit in one amplifier. At output of the amplifier we see noise level that it provide by specification. What improve some device (conditioner?), that supply this amplifier?

Other PSU may be sensitive to changes of voltage. For this case we can improve its work via AC-stabilizator.

Third PSU is sensitive to form of AC. For this case need AC sine transformer.

Each case demand certain tool.

Yuri Korzunov · Mar 20, 2017

stehno said:
Yes, it seems some feel they need to put on their rocket scientist hat before they can recognize audible improvements.

Real audible improvements and changes always visible in suitable plots.

In some sources showed only integated resume of multiple measurements (like THD).

Or measurements made in limited volume or precision.

It created myth what ear may listen things that can't be measured.

Folsom · Mar 20, 2017

Yuri Korzunov said:
Pair of wires, that go to supplied audio device, may impact to loses voltage. There need calculate diameter of the wires by material, length and current value for providing allowable temperature of heat (fire hazard). It is not relate to sound.

Impact of AC have many variables: quality of AC, quality of power supply unit (PSU), quality of power wiring between and inside analog and digital modules, that connected to the PSU, shielding, grounding.

All these thing work in complex.

As example, we have fine power supply unit in one amplifier. At output of the amplifier we see noise level that it provide by specification. What improve some device (conditioner?), that supply this amplifier?

Other PSU may be sensitive to changes of voltage. For this case we can improve its work via AC-stabilizator.

Third PSU is sensitive to form of AC. For this case need AC sine transformer.

Each case demand certain tool.

I'm sorry but I can't make sense of what you've written.

Let me give you a few tid-bits.

Anything with small transformers makes common mode noise to share. Small transformers are used signal level equipment, like all of the mini transformers used in MSB DAC's. It's a parastic problem of capacitance between insulation of wires wound, not build quality or anything like that.

Anything with safety earth is subject to potential parasitic qualities that common mode can affect.

The majority of amplifiers use torodials without shields between primary and secondary. This means they're not very good at blocking RF, which has it's effects on amplifiers plain and simple to anyone with ears.

The list can grow and grow...

Some here wouldn't want improvement in some cases because they may not be subjectively preferred (many manufacturers use poor AC quality to their advantage for voicing etc - not "correct" but it works-ish, for example). For me music is almost always too fatiguing without some treatment. It's not a big surprise with issues like our declining power factor, hordes of SMPS supplies all over, growing RF from wifi, phones, blah blah.

opus112 · Mar 20, 2017

Folsom said:
The majority of amplifiers use torodials without shields between primary and secondary. This means they're not very good at blocking RF, which has it's effects on amplifiers plain and simple to anyone with ears.

And not just amplifiers. For example take a look at http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/metrum3/4_big.jpg Count the toroids, they're all effectively in parallel as regards mains noise.

Seeing as there are 3 wires to each toroid the black wire might go to an interwinding screen. Which cuts down the leakage current at mains frequency but has less effect as the frequency climbs due to the relatively high inductance earth.

bonzo75 · Mar 20, 2017

Folsom said:
I can't decode that. But thinking the quality of AC power doesn't affect something is nonsense.

I to recommend a power conditioner but there's only one commercial one I can recommend with some confidence. Everything I see has faults. Glad I'm using my prototype...

Hi which power conditioner is that?

Yuri Korzunov · Mar 20, 2017

Folsom said:
I'm sorry but I can't make sense of what you've written.

Let me give you a few tid-bits.

Anything with small transformers makes common mode noise to share. Small transformers are used signal level equipment, like all of the mini transformers used in MSB DAC's. It's a parastic problem of capacitance between insulation of wires wound, not build quality or anything like that.

Anything with safety earth is subject to potential parasitic qualities that common mode can affect.

The majority of amplifiers use torodials without shields between primary and secondary. This means they're not very good at blocking RF, which has it's effects on amplifiers plain and simple to anyone with ears.

The list can grow and grow...

Some here wouldn't want improvement in some cases because they may not be subjectively preferred (many manufacturers use poor AC quality to their advantage for voicing etc - not "correct" but it works-ish, for example). For me music is almost always too fatiguing without some treatment. It's not a big surprise with issues like our declining power factor, hordes of SMPS supplies all over, growing RF from wifi, phones, blah blah.

For adjusting AC power supply system (external to audio device), enough control noise floor only.

As example, if power supply unit (PSU) of amplifier can't proper support the amplifier's work (low power ability, as example), external device (conditioner, wires and others) can't help. Need replace the PSU or use amplifier in mode where PSU work correctly. Because, if AC wires don't heat significantly, AC power network have too big reserve of power supply for audio power amplifier even. The reserve allow us don't worry about AC.

For suppressing power wire noise into devices, drossels, capasitors, shielding are used. At connetion cables between devices placed ferrite rings. But effectivity of this actions need check always. Inside DAC many internal sources of power wire noise

If you have no measurement tools, you may check noise floor of your system in silent mode. Or launch playback record with absolute silence (zero level) to activate all possibly blocked parts in stop mode.

If connecting/disconnecting power conditioner don't impact to listened noise floor, have no sense use this conditioner.

opus112 · Mar 20, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Hi which power conditioner is that?

Has to be his, right?

Blue58 · Mar 20, 2017

antelion said:
Hello,

as i moved to a new place which boasts a sever lack in available outlets i am forced to install new power lines for the audio system (a thought which i anyway considered also based on the various threads regarding dedicated power here and elsewhere).

My question is on suggestions/experience regarding the # of lines. As i run rather "lower" powered amps (7-20 Watts), could these be also fed from with the source/pre line to make it two lines (1 digital, one rest) or would you still go with a dedicated line for the power amps (thus 3 in total)?

Side consideration is the "power conditioner" (i use a Bybee) which then would not be available anymore for the power amps ( so either running w/o or need for an additional unit.

Thanks for your thoughts
antelion

Hi Antelion,
Just as an example of how my system is wired and it may or may not work for you, I have 4 dedicated lines using Oyaide EE F/S 2.0 V2, a great shielded cable using 102ssc copper. 1 line for digital, 1 line for SET monoblocks and 1 line each for Duo subs. I have no discernible ground loops. The shields of the lines are connected to earth at the dedicated panel and unconnected at the iec ends/extension blocks(Oyaide R1). The earth is then connected to the main earth terminal where the street power arrives and not to the other house earth point. When installed it measured 2ohm to ground, pretty good.
Remember it is important to treat the house wiring too to remove 'noise' and not just the hifi wiring.
Good luck.
Blue58

Folsom · Mar 20, 2017

Yuri Korzunov said:
For adjusting AC power supply system (external to audio device), enough control noise floor only.

As example, if power supply unit (PSU) of amplifier can't proper support the amplifier's work (low power ability, as example), external device (conditioner, wires and others) can't help. Need replace the PSU or use amplifier in mode where PSU work correctly. Because, if AC wires don't heat significantly, AC power network have too big reserve of power supply for audio power amplifier even. The reserve allow us don't worry about AC.

For suppressing power wire noise into devices, drossels, capasitors, shielding are used. At connetion cables between devices placed ferrite rings. But effectivity of this actions need check always. Inside DAC many internal sources of power wire noise

If you have no measurement tools, you may check noise floor of your system in silent mode. Or launch playback record with absolute silence (zero level) to activate all possibly blocked parts in stop mode.

If connecting/disconnecting power conditioner don't impact to listened noise floor, have no sense use this conditioner.

Basically no power conditioner is trying to fix the PSU of a piece of equipment.

Ferrite clamps basically exclusively make things sound terrible. This isn't speculative. The only places I've seen them used successfully is in my CD player. They also have a very limited range of noise attenuation.

Noise isn't related to what comes out of the speakers when nothing is playing. Noise CHANGES the music itself. When you have no music playing but everything is turned on, and you hear something in the speakers that's very low level... you may notice this can be from an amp where volume doesn't change it at all. On top of that power conditioner still improves sound. Some amps are just "noisy" at the speaker level but in fact are not ridden with noise in the design or have ill effects from it.

bonzo75 said:
Hi which power conditioner is that?

SurgeX. DaveC upgrades them with better connectors and wires to make them better. They use a simple filtration device that works without negative qualities because they compensated for the problems that can occur.

My own is in a different price league. I can make them by request (and have) but I'm not at the point of a web page with a launched commercial product. (I've got several things I'm working on).

amirm · Mar 20, 2017

Yuri Korzunov said:
If you have no measurement tools, you may check noise floor of your system in silent mode. Or launch playback record with absolute silence (zero level) to activate all possibly blocked parts in stop mode.

He doesn't believe in either. The noise he believes in can't be heard as noise, nor measured! Indeed, noise is now being used as the explanation of any subjective improvement regardless of it makes any sense from engineering or scientific way. Every tweak seemingly reduces noise and the cycle can continue to infinity!

You and I consider that nonsense of course but that is the position Folsom, etc. take.

amirm · Mar 20, 2017

Folsom said:
SurgeX. DaveC upgrades them with better connectors and wires to make them better. They used a simple filtration device that works without negative qualities because they compensated for the problems that can occur.

Give us the db noise reduction at audio frequencies please.

Dedicated powerlines, how many?

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