Why do high up-sampling/ over-sampling rates (DSD,) kill PRAT and aliveness of music? Any ideas?

opus112

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I guess the crux of the above argument by Berkeley Audio why mutli-bit delta-sigma is PCM lies in this paragraph:

The multi-bit delta-sigma data stream is generated by a delta- sigma modulator, which is typically used to re-quantize and noise shape an input with a different bit depth. Each multi-bit word is a binary number which represents an instantaneous value of the signal – in other words PCM.

(Not that I can pretend to technically understand this, perhaps you can help, opus112.)

I suspect that the response from BAD is in reply to some (nonsensical) assertion that 'multi-bit S-D is not PCM'. I find myself in total agreement with the BAD response there.

Perhaps what the propagandists are wanting to do is say that multi-bit S-D uses some aspects of technology which aren't present in normal PCM. However noise shaping around quantization was used in the first Philips CD players where a 14bit DAC was used with 4X oversampling to give similar performance to a 16bit DAC. The noise shaping though didn't involve feedback in my understanding so perhaps that's one crucial difference.

In my view DSD is clearly not PCM because the 'C' in 'PCM' is the word 'coded' and DSD is not coded in the sense that the raw waveform can be directly converted into analog. The lack of coding also gives rise to the problem highlighted by L&V that the single bit modulator is constantly in overload when optimally dithered. However the proponents of DSD consider the lack of coding to be rather one of DSD's strengths because they say this makes it more like 'analog'. Such an argument plays a lot on the checkered history of digital in that much of it has in the past sounded harsh or aggressive or dull or flat (or all of the above) when compared to good analog.

The interesting issue for me is that there's no doubt in my mind that when it comes to DACs, S-D DACs playing out DSD do gain more approval for SQ than do S-D DACs playing out PCM. This to me speaks of the deficiencies in implementations of S-D DACs rather than any superiority of DSD as a format. Material which is sourced in PCM and then converted to DSD for playback (using Miska's software typically) gains in SQ compared to replay of the same material through the PCM interface of the same DAC hardware.
 

Yuri Korzunov

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Initial assertion:

Multibit DSD is not PCM.

PCM is typically 24 bit of the whole sample value while multi bit DSD is typically 5-6 bits of DIFFERENCE between adjacent samples. In 1 bit DSD this difference is binary (0 or 1) while in multi bit DSD it's the same difference between samples but quantized with 5-6 bits (Sabre has a 6 bit DAC). Multibit DSD is BETTER than 1 bit DSD, so there is nothing wrong with going 1 bit> 6bit which is what all these DAC chips do.

Our assertion in response:

Multi-bit delta-sigma audio very definitely is PCM, and represents coarsely quantized whole output sample values being sent to a linear PCM DAC.

Spectrum of multibit sigma-delta modulation (a.k.a. DSD) may be considered at output the modulator as PCM + modulation/quantization noise pushed to high frequency range.
If at output multibit modulator apply digital filtering, there will usual PCM.
 

Al M.

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I suspect that the response from BAD is in reply to some (nonsensical) assertion that 'multi-bit S-D is not PCM'. I find myself in total agreement with the BAD response there.

Yes, the assertion was just like that, see the post prior to the one you replied to. Great to know that you find yourself in total agreement with the BAD response.

The interesting issue for me is that there's no doubt in my mind that when it comes to DACs, S-D DACs playing out DSD do gain more approval for SQ than do S-D DACs playing out PCM. This to me speaks of the deficiencies in implementations of S-D DACs rather than any superiority of DSD as a format. Material which is sourced in PCM and then converted to DSD for playback (using Miska's software typically) gains in SQ compared to replay of the same material through the PCM interface of the same DAC hardware.

I would agree with you in a narrower sense. DACs with delta-sigma ESS Sabre chips tend to sound better on DSD than on PCM. The NADAC is one of those. It sounds a bit harsh and glassy on PCM, but great with conversion of PCM to DSD via HQ Player.

My Berkeley delta-sigma DAC sounds great on PCM. In fact, the distinct lack of 'glassiness' on Redbook CD has been lauded (compare that to NADAC on PCM).
 

Al M.

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Spectrum of multibit sigma-delta modulation (a.k.a. DSD) may be considered at output the modulator as PCM + modulation/quantization noise pushed to high frequency range.
If at output multibit modulator apply digital filtering, there will usual PCM.

Thanks, Yuri.
 

opus112

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I would agree with you in a narrower sense. DACs with delta-sigma ESS Sabre chips tend to sound better on DSD than on PCM.

I've seen some measurements (I put up a picture on my DIYaudio blog) which show there's an apparent problem with the older ES9018 DAC. I think using it in DSD mode bypasses this particular issue. It also bypasses the on-chip filtering which I believe uses half-band filters (to save on silicon real-estate; they're compromised technically). The issue with the DAC may have been fixed on the most recent devices, I haven't seen measurements for them yet. I shall be interested to read listening reports to understand whether on the latest devices the gap between PCM and DSD has been narrowed.

My Berkeley delta-sigma DAC sounds great on PCM. In fact, the distinct lack of 'glassiness' on Redbook CD has been lauded (compare that to NADAC on PCM).

I believe that's using the AD1955 which has I think a 5bit DAC. But its also using opamps for I/V and filtering so still has some room to be enhanced.
 

Al M.

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I've seen some measurements (I put up a picture on my DIYaudio blog) which show there's an apparent problem with the older ES9018 DAC. I think using it in DSD mode bypasses this particular issue. It also bypasses the on-chip filtering which I believe uses half-band filters (to save on silicon real-estate; they're compromised technically). The issue with the DAC may have been fixed on the most recent devices, I haven't seen measurements for them yet. I shall be interested to read listening reports to understand whether on the latest devices the gap between PCM and DSD has been narrowed.

Very interesting, thanks.

I believe that's using the AD1955 which has I think a 5bit DAC. But its also using opamps for I/V and filtering so still has some room to be enhanced.

Yes, that's the DAC chip. As for room for enhancement, of course there is. The Berkeley DAC is built to a price point, at which it performs very well.
 

bibo01

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I've seen some measurements (I put up a picture on my DIYaudio blog) which show there's an apparent problem with the older ES9018 DAC. I think using it in DSD mode bypasses this particular issue. It also bypasses the on-chip filtering which I believe uses half-band filters (to save on silicon real-estate; they're compromised technically). The issue with the DAC may have been fixed on the most recent devices, I haven't seen measurements for them yet. I shall be interested to read listening reports to understand whether on the latest devices the gap between PCM and DSD has been narrowed.
...
Can I please have a link to that picture on your blog?
 

Yuri Korzunov

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At plot in first post in your link I see signal with -40 dB level and -130 dB peak of noise floor. As I understand, issue is: if signal above 40 dB, harmonics more significantly grow.

For PC-sofware modulators PCM to DSD, even for worst mode (D64), we can view maximal signal level about -6 ... 15 dB with noise+harmonics maximal peak about -117 .... -148 dB.

These values depend on used software (algorithm of modulator) and frequency of input signal.

In hardware decisions, except modulator, we have non-linearity of components (operational amps, transistors). Non-linearity depend on level of signal. So increasing of level may give more or lesser harmonics comparing level of base tone. It is very sophisticated dependence.

Into modulator we also have non-linear components, that degrade its parameters. I don't mean comparator (depend on level it have at output only 0 or 1), but it also have no ideal switch response. It also degrade quality of sigma-delta modulator.
 

opus112

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At plot in first post in your link I see signal with -40 dB level and -130 dB peak of noise floor. As I understand, issue is: if signal above 40 dB, harmonics more significantly grow.

Those are discrete tones around -130dB (harmonic distortion and mains hum), not 'noise floor'. The noise floor is around -155dB but in a (roughly) 3Hz bandwidth. So integrating that over the audio band we'd add about 38dB to this number giving -117dB.

Then the blue trace has much of the noise floor lifted by 10 to 20dB. Just from a 1dB change in the signal amplitude.
 

Yuri Korzunov

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Those are discrete tones around -130dB (harmonic distortion and mains hum), not 'noise floor'. The noise floor is around -155dB but in a (roughly) 3Hz bandwidth. So integrating that over the audio band we'd add about 38dB to this number giving -117dB.

Ok. It’s method matter. In context of my personal needs, I consider all harmonics and noise together. Because I more strongly consider signal altering after passing thru my modulator, than other methodics allow to do it. I consider peak level of any component in spectrum (except base/test tone) as peak noise floor for all frequencies into work band of output signal.
In other applications noise and harmonics may be considered separatelly, if it need.


Then the blue trace has much of the noise floor lifted by 10 to 20dB. Just from a 1dB change in the signal amplitude.

Looks like overload. Probably gain of the tested module is limited for avoiding overload of sigma-delta modulator.

If the modulator will overloaded, it can go to generation-tone(s) mode or silence until you switch OFF/ON. For avoiding such cases, usually reserved some headroom about -6 dB in audio records.

In my modulator I use limitation -0.4 dB, because there is additional algorithm of support stability of the modulator. Though it don’t guarantee 100% protect against long time overload.

But I don’t know why there -40 dB.

What is measurement tool you use? May be it is overload of the measurement tool? Check its settings carefully for sureness. And try check the result other way/tool.
 

Anatta

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http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/300#post_11943807

Rob Watts said:
There are actually two independent issues going on with DSD that limits the musicality - and they are interlinked problems.

The first issue is down to the resolving power of DSD. Now a DSD works by using a noise shaper, and a noise shaper is a feedback system. Indeed, you can think of an analogue amplifier as a first order noise shaper - so you have a subtraction input stage that compares the input to the output, followed by a gain stage that integrates the error. With a delta sigma noise shaper its exactly the same, but where the output stage is truncated to reduce the noise shaper output resolution so it can drive the OP - in the case of DSD its one bit, +1 or -1 op stage. But you use multiple gain stages connected together so you have n integrators - typically 5 for DSD. Now the number of integrators, together with the time constants will determine how much error correction you have within the system - and the time constants are primarily set by the over-sample rate of the noise shaper. Double the oversampling frequency and with a 5th order ideal system (i.e. one that does not employ resonators or other tricks to improve HF noise) it converges on a 30 dB improvement in distortion and noise.

So where does lack of resolution leave us? Well any signal that is below the noise floor of the noise shaper is completely lost - this is completely unlike PCM where an infinitely small signal is still encoded within the noise when using correct dithering. With DSD any signal below the noise shaper noise floor is lost for good. Now these small signals are essential for the cues that the brain uses to get the perception of sound stage depth - and depth perception is a major problem with audio - conventional high end audio is incapable of reproducing a sense of space in the same way one can perceive natural sounds. Now whilst optimising Hugo's noise shaper I noticed two things - once the noise shaper performance hit 200 dB performance (that is THD and noise being -200 dB in the audio bandwidth as measured using digital domain simulation) then it no longer got smoother. So in terms of warmth and smoothness, 200 dB is good enough. But this categorically did not apply to the perception of depth, where making further improvements improved the perception of how deep instruments were (assuming they are actually recorded with depth like a organ in a cathedral or off stage effects in Mahler 2 for example. Given the size of the FPGA and the 4e pulse array 2048FS DAC, I got the best depth I could obtain.

But with Dave, no such restriction on FPGA size applied, and I had a 20e pulse array DAC which innately has more resolution and allows smaller time constants for the integrator (so better performance). So I optimised it again, and kept on increasing the performance of the noise shaper - and the perception of depth kept on improving. After 3 months of optimising and redesigning the noise shaper I got to 360 dB performance - an extraordinary level, completely way beyond the performance of ordinary noise shapers. But what was curious was how easy it was to hear a 330 dB noise shaper against a 360 dB one - but only in terms of depth perception. My intellectual puzzle is whether this level of small signal accuracy is really needed, or whether these numbers are acting as a proxy for something else going on, perhaps within the analogue parts of the DAC - I am not sure on this point, something I will be researching. But for sure I have got the optimal performance from the noise shaper employed in Dave, and every DAC I have ever listened too shows similar behaviour.

The point I am making over this is that DSD noise shapers for DSD 64 is only capable of 120 dB performance - and that is some 10 thousand times worse than Hugo - and a trillion times worse than Dave. And every time I hear DSD I always get the same problem o perception of depth - it sounds completely flat with no real sense of depth. Now regular 16 bit red book categorically does not suffer from this problem - an infinitely small signal will be perfectly encoded in a properly dithered system - it will just be buried within the noise.

Now the second issue is timing. Now I am not talking about timing in terms of femtosecond clocks and other such nonsense - it always amuses me to see NOS DAC companies talking about femtosecond accuracy clocks when their lack of proper filtering generates hundreds of uS of timing problems on transients due to sampling reconstruction errors. What I am talking about is how accurately transients are timed against the original analogue signal in that the timing of transients is non-linear. Sometimes the transient will be at one point in time, other times delayed or advanced depending upon where the transient occurs against the sample time. In the case of PCM we have the timing errors of transients due to the lack of tap length in the FIR reconstruction filter. The mathematics is very clear cut - we need extremely long tap lengths to almost perfectly reconstruct the original timing of transients - and from listening tests I can hear a correlation between tap length and sound quality. With Dave I can still hear 100,000 taps increasing to 164,000 taps albeit I can now start to hear the law of diminishing returns. But we know for sure that increasing the tap length will mean that it would make absolutely no difference if it was sampled at 22 uS or 22 fS (assuming its a perfectly bandwidth limited signal). So red book is again limited on timing by the DAC not inherently within the format.

Unfortunately, DSD also has its timing non-linearity issues but they are different to PCM. This problem has never been talked about before, but its something I have been aware of for a long time, and its one reason I uniquely run my noise shapers at 2048FS. When a large signal transient occurs - lets say from -1 to +1 then the time delay for the signal is small as the signal gets through the integrators and OP quantizer almost immediately. But for small signals, it can't get through the quantizer, and so it takes some time for a small negative signal changing to a positive signal to work its way through the integrators. You see these effects on simulation, where the difference of a small transient to a large transient is several uS for DSD64.

Now the timing non linearity of uS is very audible and it affects the ability of the brain to perceive the starting and stopping of instruments. Indeed, the major surprise of Hugo was how well one can perceive that starting and stopping of notes - it was much better than I expected, and at the time I was perplexed where this ability was coming from. With Dave I managed to dig down into the problem, and some of the things I had done (for other reasons) had also improved the timing non-linearity. It turns out that the brain is much more sensitive that the order of 4 uS of timing errors (this number comes from the inter-aural delay resolution, its the accuracy the brain works to in measuring time from sounds hitting one ear against the other), and much smaller levels degrade the ability for the brain to perceive the starting and stopping of notes.

But timing accuracy has another important effect too - not only is it crucial to being able to perceive the starting and stopping of notes, its also used to perceive the timbre of an instrument - that is the initial transient is used by the brain to determine the timbre of an instrument and if timing of transients is non-linear, then we get compression in the perception of timbre. One of the surprising things I heard with Hugo was how easy it was to hear the starting and stopping of instruments, and how easy it was to perceive individual instruments timbre and sensation of power. And this made a profound improvement with musicality - I was enjoying music to a level I had never had before.

But the problem we have with DSD is that the timing of transients is non-linear with respect to signal level - and unlike PCM you are completely stuck as the error is on the recording and its impossible to remove. So when I hear DSD, it sounds flat in depth, and it has relatively poor ability to perceive the starting and stopping of notes (using Hugo/Dave against PCM). Acoustic guitar sounds quite pleasant, but there is a lack of focus when the string is initially struck - it sounds all unnaturally soft with an inability to properly perceive the starting and stopping. Also the timbre of the instrument is compressed, and its down to the substantial timing non-linearity with signal level.

Having emphasised the problems with delta-sigma or noise shaping you may think its better to use R2R DAC's instead. But they too have considerable timing errors too; making the timing of signals code independent is impossible. Also they have considerable low level non linearity problems too as its impossible to match the resistor values - much worse than DSD even - so again we are stuck with poor depth, perception of timing and timbre. Not only that they suffer from substantial noise floor modulation, giving a forced hard aggressive edge to them. Some listeners prefer that, and I won't argue with somebody else's taste - whatever works for you. But its not real and it not the sound I hear with live un-amplified instruments.

So to conclude; yes I agree, DSD is fundamentally flawed, and unlike PCM where the DAC is the fundamental limit, its in the format itself. And it is mostly limited by the format. Additionally, its very easy to underestimate how sensitive the brain is to extremely small errors, and these errors can have a profound effect on musicality.
 

Al M.

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Very interesting, thanks!

What Rob Watts says would explain why DSD often sounds "soft".

As for spatial depth, I have it in spades in my system (from plain Redbook CD). My Berkeley DAC does have delta-sigma conversion, but operates in 5-bit mode as PCM. Perhaps that multi-bit PCM mode would work in its favor, if I understand Rob Watts correctly.

In terms of transients, my system reproduces them well and there is no 'softness', so nothing to blame on the Berkeley delta-sigma in multi-bit mode either. Just yesterday and today I listened to a CD of Wofgang Rihm's piano music (classsical avantgarde) with its brutally hard and fast attacks on the keys of the piano. Reproduced with great incisiveness.

Yet not quite as well as live. I heard these transients with even more startling power in another piano piece by Rihm in a chamber concert in Boston, fantastically played by a petite Chinese lady with not particularly big hands. Goes to show, this seems to be more about technique on the piano than about brute physical force.
 

caesar

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Not sure if this is a coincidence or not, but to my taste, Rob Watts' DACs obliterate, destroy, knock out, smash, put to waste, wipe out, etc., :) the Berkeley Reference, DCS Vivaldi, Esoteric reference, NADAC, Audio Reserach, and every single DSD DAC I have heard.
 

marty

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Thanks for bringing this most interesting thread to our attention. I first thought it a bit odd that the originator of the Chord Dave DAC, Rob Watts, decided to post his very erudite thoughts on a headphone blog. but then I guess it makes sense since the Chord DAC is capable to driving headphones and has a dedicated headphone jack for that purpose. It took me a whole lotta time to get through most of the thread (Jeez, and you think we like to babble on here at WBF?) but it was an interesting read. I'm still not sure I understand the technical arguments about why DSD often sounds "soft" (or more accurately, softer than its PCM counterparts), but I came away wanting to hear a Chord Dave as it has certainly received universal praise and can handle any file format. Most impressively for me, it handles native DSD up to 8X DSD!. I think Jon Valin had an outstanding essay in this month's TAS and I found his observations ring true when he said that after 2 years of playing with digital, he finds the best sound occurs from native files rather than upsampled ones since that has been my observation as well. I have several files that are 2XDSD and the same files upsampled to DXD and the former generally impress me more than the latter. Using Audirvana 3.04, the only files I have to upsample to DXD (using DSD over PCM: "DoP 1.0") are my DSD256 files- all 10 of them (from a few thousand on my NAS drive), so I'm hardly forced to upsample very much at all and therefore do not. The reason I may prefer native might have to do with the way the Meitner DX2 DAC handles all files. Even native files get processed by a 16X DSD DAC so Meitner is doing his own internal processing of some sort, although the Meitner folks eschew the terms upsampling/converting for reasons that escape me. Rather, they are "processed through a 16X DSD DAC" which sounds a heck of a lot like the same thing to me but regardless of what it's called, it definitely is a DSD DAC he is using. The second take away from that Chord thread was a comment somewhere in those 8000 posts that said (to paraphrase) that "almost everybody besides Rob Watts at Chord is doing it wrong, with the possible exception of Meitner". And that quote was back in 2015, before Meitner released his DA2 DAC a year later. I certainly can't comment on that since I have not heard "everybody's" DAC. But I am fairly certain of this. I am enamoured with what Meitner has done in his DA2. I have been on the Meitner train through 4 iterations of his players and DACs for a reason. To me, there just isn't a DAC that processes the top end as naturally and as believably as Meitner's gear. Piano harmonics, string harmonics, cymbals, air. Realistic timbre. Realistic microdynamics. Realistic hall renderings. Nothing else I have heard does digital as well IMHO. I came home from hearing Mahler 1 at Carnegie 2 nights ago, and normally, I can't even bear to turn on my system for 2 days after a live performance as I am usually distraught by the stupidity of thinking we can actually reproduce anything at home that is even remotely satisfying by comparison. With the Meitner DA2, I actually don't mind listening to digital the next day, so an incremental improvement perhaps? (or just another exercise in self-deception, which every audiophile knows well!). That said, after reading the Chord thread, I sure would like to hear the Chord Dave as it sounds promising, and its also about half the price of the mighty Meitner. Chord Dave vs Formula shootout, anyone?
 
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wisnon

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Rob is a very nice guy, but hates DSD. He has never heard proper DSD and Chord Dacs dont sound very good on DSD. I know, as I have one and heard them all. Nobody who has heard DSD done right can say it that it does not sound good and indeed BETTER than PCM on some genres.

Finally, upsampling to DSD256 in Linux and DSD512 in Windows is extraordinaryly good on a lot of material.
 
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asiufy

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I sure would like to hear the Chord Dave as it sounds promising, and its also about half the price of the mighty Meitner. Chord Dave vs Formula shootout, anyone?

If somebody brings one, I'll put it against the Aqua + SGM. Again, I love to be proven wrong, as I've never been impressed with anything made by Chord, much on the contrary actually...


cheers,
alex
 
Sounding "alive" is a purely subjective term with no scientific construct. If you mean accurate / faithful to recording then that is different but not the definition of "alive" that I personally have in mind.

**But - the point I am making is that it is dangerous, indeed highly unscientific, to make pseudoscientific pontifications that link such a paper to whether something sounds alive or not and present it to people, quote you verbatim "very likely the reason..." for this phenomena. This kind of conclusion is bad science. No further debate needed from me.

While I applaud the scientific method, in music I go with what I hear. I am in awe of what I hear from quad DSD. I have compared multiple instances where I have quad DSD of the same recording as I have a vinyl version. The sound stage is much better captured in quad DSD. There must be some reason why SONY converted its master tapes to quad DSD. The vinyl versions are quite listenable, but the quad DSD is just real. I have an Avari Jfet amplified dac to my system. In this case I often have a SACD that I just get across to the system. I must say that when I used a non-dac source but rather use Signalyst I get the best sound.
 

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