Visit to DDK

microstrip · Mar 14, 2017

Great report Ron. Yours and David's perspectives on detail, warmth, bloom and coloration were really interesting.

Ron Resnick · Mar 14, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Yes I concur dynamics are more, and resolution is more, just that when heard with Neumann it is much, much more, and Ron has before not preferred high resolution, high extension stuff (like Lyra, for example), hence my point

I am all in favor of higher resolution provided that it is not accompanied by brightness or edginess or anything my ear interprets -- rightly or wrongly -- as brightness or edginess.

853guy · Mar 14, 2017

ddk said:
AS itself has the highest resolution, tonal depth and frequency response than anything else I've ever heard specially in the bass region it's the most natural. My daily listeners are various SPUs of differing vintage, two of them on the AS, but that doesn't change the character of the tts. In certain aspects the Thorens & AS are very close, maybe because they're both belt drives but as far as dynamics go, the AS is in another class. That wouldn't change with any decent cartridge. Either the Neumann doesn't match the other tts as well or they can't get the best out that cartridge, it's not that special on the either the Thorens or the AF-1. This is where matching becomes critical and I've seen it with other cartridges too.

david

Amen, brother.

I had always dismissed Koetsu's. I liked Lyra's and Decca's and pointy, tizzy cartridges, but mainly because I was using an LP12 with a unipivot. Once I heard a Koetsu mounted on a heavy arm on an idler and the energy was restored to the platter rather than being robbed by the belt and the suspension of the Linn I flew to Japan and begged Sugano-san for forgiveness for ever doubting his greatness.*

853guy

*That's a lie. But in hindsight, perhaps I should have.

NorthStar · Mar 14, 2017

? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?22718-Visit-to-DDK&p=441339&viewfull=1#post441339

Ron, I've read your post (part of your journey) late last night. I was tired and did not reply, but I truly enjoyed the ride/read.
What attracted me the most was David's wife, Kana, as the chef (cook) and her delicious meals.

All in all it was a delight to read you, as always. You have a great mastering of words and descriptions as it happens in the now (fresh memories).
We float graciously in your narratives. Thank you.

amirm · Mar 14, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
I am all in favor of higher resolution provided that it is not accompanied by brightness or edginess or anything my ear interprets -- rightly or wrongly -- as brightness or edginess.

First, great report Ron. You should take up audio writing. Oops.

Seeing how we are all older folks and our hearing frequency has diminished to varying degree, it is likely that we don't all hear the same amount of brightness. Heaven knows that if I think something is too bright, it must be damn bright to others.

Again, very enjoyable read. Wish I could have had some of that homemade Japanese food! Audio would have had a tough time competing with that...

ddk · Mar 14, 2017

853guy said:
Amen, brother.

I had always dismissed Koetsu's. I liked Lyra's and Decca's and pointy, tizzy cartridges, but mainly because I was using an LP12 with a unipivot. Once I heard a Koetsu mounted on a heavy arm on an idler and the energy was restored to the platter rather than being robbed by the belt and the suspension of the Linn I flew to Japan and begged Sugano-san for forgiveness for ever doubting his greatness.*

853guy

*That's a lie. But in hindsight, perhaps I should have.

I never got into the Rosewood nor the Rosewood Signature, way too colored for my tastes but the Black worked very well on my LP12/Ittok. Kiseki's were even more colored and overrated than the Koetsus. I still have a working Blue which I installed a couple of months ago, musical but so, so colored!

david

cjfrbw · Mar 14, 2017

Yup, good report, Ron. You did a nice job of negotiating the audiophile lingo tower of babel to find some common ground to interpret your listening experience compared with DDK.

Those Bionors of DDK are an audiophile mecca for sure.

Believe High Fidelity · Mar 14, 2017

Excellent report Ron. Look forward to your next visit

I am seeing more and more feedback along the lines of your time spent with DDK's horn system. The compression free "magical realism" you describe is not appealing to some while a revelation to others.

If it is great for Jazz and make your feel like you are there at the club then how is it missing the mark for you wrt to your reference music? Is this a factor of imaging, warmth or something else?

853guy · Mar 14, 2017

ddk said:
I never got into the Rosewood nor the Rosewood Signature, way too colored for my tastes but the Black worked very well on my LP12/Ittok. Kiseki's were even more colored and overrated than the Koetsus. I still have a working Blue which I installed on a couple of months ago, musical but so, so colored!

david

Hi David,

Although I have the greatest respect for Sugano-san, I don't necessarily have the same amount for his lesser carts. I much prefer the stone bodied carts, but even then, his better ones need very, very careful matching with arm/platter/plinth/drive/wire/loading, etc, causing many, I believe, to dismiss them due to hearing them in less than ideal circumstances. That, of course, applies to most things analogue, which is part of what makes it such a mercurial and chrysopoeic divine pursuit.

853guy

cjfrbw · Mar 14, 2017

Chrysopoeia? I don't need no stinkin' chrysopoeia!

853guy · Mar 14, 2017

cjfrbw said:
Chrysopoeia? I don't need no stinkin' chrysopoeia!

You're not turning black vinyl into sonic gold at your place? Maybe your VTA is off.

Yours in poorly conceived humour,

853guy

P.S. Getting the best from vinyl is a black art of sorts, though. I mean, kinda. Right?

cjfrbw · Mar 14, 2017

853guy said:
You're not turning black vinyl into sonic gold at your place? Maybe your VTA is off.

P.S. Getting the best from vinyl is a black art of sorts, though. I mean, kinda. Right?

Maybe turning gold into depreciable assets.

Yup, pursuing vinyl is an endless voyage into the ineluctable magic.

853guy · Mar 14, 2017

cjfrbw said:
Maybe turning gold into depreciable assets.

Yup, pursuing vinyl is an endless voyage into the ineluctable magic.

Word of the day, right there.

853guy

jeff1225 · Mar 14, 2017

853guy said:
You're not turning black vinyl into sonic gold at your place? Maybe your VTA is off.

Yours in poorly conceived humour,

853guy

P.S. Getting the best from vinyl is a black art of sorts, though. I mean, kinda. Right?

It's a interesting thought. I see the digital guys endlessly proclaiming the latest DAC or clock as the new holy grail. In David's system we are comparing turntables, arms and cartridges from the 1980's. The analogue technology has been here since 1980 (some would argue since 1960) the digital is still in a constant state of development.

Steve Williams · Mar 14, 2017

jeffrey_t said:
It's a interesting thought. I see the digital guys endlessly proclaiming the latest DAC or clock as the new holy grail. In David's system we are comparing turntables, arms and cartridges from the 1980's. The analogue technology has been here since 1980 (some would argue since 1960) the digital is still in a constant state of development.

Jeffrey

How true and everyone needs to visit, see and hear David's system. It's hearing the best of the best of the best under "almost" ideal conditions and it is so real from virtually anywhere in his room. That was something quite remarkable for me.

I used the word "almost" above not in any negative way but rather to think how great those speakers would sound in a much larger and treated room such as Jimmy has in Manila.

We should start a poll that's left open as to what the favorite table/demo was at David's house for those who have visited

For my ears at the time I was there I vote The AS table plus the SME 3012R arm with factory phono cables (which I think are Van den Hul) and the Neumann cartridge as my ears were were lit up like nothing I had heard. It seemed to have the best of everything including my AF1 (The only thing I can say with good defense to my AF1 vs Davids is that mine is a newer version and David had an early version motor which lacked some torque when used with the heavier SS platter. I have never had that problem).

The time I was there was a fascinating look into all things analog and hearing the very best of everything. That plus watching David work his magic with setting up a table, arm and carried. Needless to say I wasn't his first rodeo

Everyone passing through Utah (which is beautiful to tour) should stop in Cedar City and call David. Plus he and Kana are wonderful hosts

BTW I bought an NOS SME 3012R arm with original cables and love it

853guy · Mar 14, 2017

jeffrey_t said:
It's a interesting thought. I see the digital guys endlessly proclaiming the latest DAC or clock as the new holy grail. In David's system we are comparing turntables, arms and cartridges from the 1980's. The analogue technology has been here since 1980 (some would argue since 1960) the digital is still in a constant state of development.

Hello Jeffrey,

Sure. I've shared before on the asymmetricality of musical reproduction systems, which because of the inherent electro-mechanical level of inter-dependence apropos the vinyl mechanism explores the limits of tiny, fractional changes resulting in disproportionate gains or losses. Not to mention, it was once revealed to me a technology is most often abandoned before it reaches its zenith. In David's system we're reminded just how incredible vinyl replay was becoming, albeit at a level of exclusivity, in the 80's, but was forsaken due to the introduction of the new and incredible Compact Disc. Of course, now, we have just as many discovering how incredible 16/44.1 can be just as DSD finds itself in the limelight.

Funny.

Best,

853guy

ddk · Mar 14, 2017

jeffrey_t said:
It's a interesting thought. I see the digital guys endlessly proclaiming the latest DAC or clock as the new holy grail. In David's system we are comparing turntables, arms and cartridges from the 1980's. The analogue technology has been here since 1980 (some would argue since 1960) the digital is still in a constant state of development.

Actually the first truly high end turntable the EMT 927 is from the 50's and to this date is still THE Reference standard.

david

Steve Williams · Mar 14, 2017

ddk said:
Actually the first truly high end turntable the EMT 927 is from the 50's and to this date is still THE Reference standard.

david

weren't they used to listen to the lacquers and IIRC they were used with a Neumann cartridge

ddk · Mar 14, 2017

Steve Williams said:
weren't they used to listen to the lacquers and IIRC they were used with a Neumann cartridge

They were used everywhere in the industry, for checking the lacquer off the lathe, mastering, and broadcast they were adopted much later by audiophiles. All the major labels used them and EMT was the industry leader. They used EMT cartridges that were designed by Ortofon and the Ortofon arm until they designed their own.

david

Al M. · Mar 14, 2017

microstrip said:
Great report Ron. Yours and David's perspectives on detail, warmth, bloom and coloration were really interesting.

+1

What a great read, Ron, also the atmospheric intro.

From this report it would seem that I quite agree with David's perspective on things.

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