Kuzma Stabi XL DC vs TechDAS Air Force III

abeidrov

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What would you choose if you had to a chance to pick up one of these great TT? I have pretty much narrowed it down to these two and now am leaning towards AFIII. Both are roughly the same price.
Kuzma is a safer choice, but TechDAS has a much bigger WOW factor for me:)
I've heard that Kuzma sounds very neutral, can the same be said about AFIII?

Thanks.
 

JackD201

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IMO You can't go wrong with either. I've dealt with both makers and both Mr. Kuzma and Mr. Nishikawa are true gentlemen with passion that stand behind their products unflinchingly. Funny thing is HOW I came to deal with both men at once. I needed a template for a 4-Point which was to be moved from a TW to a TD. TechDAS didn't have it. I emailed Franc and I kid you not, he provided me/TechDAS with the PDF and a .doc file within hours. Wow. No politics, total cooperation, one very happy owner of both maker's products.

One of the reasons I went with AF is the ease with which they deal with warped records. I collect only two things in my life. Original pressings and cartridges. I don't have an unlimited budget obviously and one can save so much on warped LPs that are otherwise NM/NM. A flat record helps with the longevity of my carts' suspensions and perhaps their lives. It just made sense.

The Kuzma is neutral but it is not analytical. The AFIII is a touch warmer in the lower mids and upper bass than the more linear AF2 and AF1 and is likewise neutral but not analytical. I am sure that with some care anybody will get great music out of both given the flexibility afforded by being able to choose and match all the other parts of the analog chain.

I'm sure that either way, you will be happy with your choice.
 

bonzo75

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Hi Jack, the AF1 has a nice midbass weight, and the whole sound has weight, at least with the aluminum platter. Are these attributes retained by the AF3?
 

JackD201

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Hi Kid yes it does they do differ in that the 3's is a little rounder and less defined which I attribute to it's not having suspension, SS platter and/or different arm board. BTW it was a complete arm/cart/cable transplant so its as close a comparison as I could make it. Also a little less extended on both ends. It sounded closer to my TW AC-3 than the big brothers. Looks more similar too being ready for 4 arms. Tonal balance and extension gets more linear and extended as you go up the line. Low level detail as well as each is gets quieter the higher up you go.
 

dctom

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I have the Kuzma XL and like the sound it produces especially in the lower frequencies, it is dynamic and clearly differentiates between cartridges etc. I did hear the AF 3, in a large room, with an expensive unfamiliar system last year - new Magico S7s, constellation monos, ARC front end electronics. The sound was very dynamic and transparent, I am not a fan of magicos (heard the S5s previously) and they were being played very loud, but I am sure they would have shown up any flaws in the TT, it is clearly very good. Overall I felt the sound missed the lower end of the Kuzma and I did not get the sort of image I am used to, but that could have been due to any number of factors.

You need to get a demo of the two TTs, with your arm of choice, side by side with the same cartridge. Very difficult to achieve unfortunately.

btw the Kuzma clamp flattens out most LP uneveness, only serious warps are a problem.
 
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abeidrov

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Hi Jack,

Thanks for sharing your experience. I understood from you post, that TW AC-3 and AF3 sound quite close. Is there any significant difference between the 2 turntables sonically? Also, TechDAS offers optional Disk Stabilizer for all of its TT. I am just curious why it is needed if you already have the vacuum hold down of the disk?
And finally, a question about a rack/stand for the AF3. I understand that an insulation table for the AF3 will be available in the future. Will it be a proper rack with several shelves or just a platform? Any idea about how much it may cost? I am looking now for a good quality stand / rack. At minimum I will have to put in it a TT and a phono stage. In case of the AF3, I will also need a place to put the air pump / motor PS module. I am now looking at HRS, SRA and Finite Elemente. All these stands are quite costly. Are there any cheaper quality alternatives?

Thanks,
Aziz
 

abeidrov

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dctom, thanks for your post. Unfortunately, there is no way I can get a demo of the TTs in my system or any other system for that matter. I just checked with both the official distributors. In case of Kuzma, they do not even have it in the showroom. The AF3 is available to go look at, but it is not setup up. Very strange, but this is Russia and the Hi-End business is not very advanced here as you can imagine:)
So, I need to make a decision and buy one or the other.
 

gian60

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You can think also Bergmann Galder,cost less than AF3 and you can put 4 arms
I have Bergmann Sindre and i am very happy
In Italy for your reference price are AF3 euro 22.500 and Galder 15.000 euro
 

dctom

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Unfortunately, there is no way I can get a demo of the TTs in my system or any other system for that matter.

And finally, a question about a rack/stand for the AF3. I understand that an insulation table for the AF3 will be available in the future. Will it be a proper rack with several shelves or just a platform? Any idea about how much it may cost? I am looking now for a good quality stand / rack. At minimum I will have to put in it a TT and a phono stage. In case of the AF3, I will also need a place to put the air pump / motor PS module. I am now looking at HRS, SRA and Finite Elemente. All these stands are quite costly. Are there any cheaper quality alternatives?

Thanks,
Aziz

Hi Aziz

I know what you mean, it is difficult to get good comparisons of gear in the UK. I had to take my sme to a dealer to get an idea of the difference, when auditioning the Kuzma.
On that occasion the XL was on a Finite element rack. I contacted Franc Kuzma about support, he was using a 100mm thick piece of maple.
The XL needs a good support for it to sound at its best as it does not have any built in isolation, I made my own in the end which works very well, a lot cheaper than the FE one!
 

abeidrov

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You can think also Bergmann Galder,cost less than AF3 and you can put 4 arms
I have Bergmann Sindre and i am very happy
In Italy for your reference price are AF3 euro 22.500 and Galder 15.000 euro
gian60, Never heard of Bergmann TT. I am sure, they are great TT, but there are many other choices in this price range: TW-Acustic, Brinkmann, AMG, Verdie, Acoustic Signature just to name a few. I do not have a lifetime to listen to them all. So, for now I will stick to my 2 choices.
 

JackD201

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Hi Aziz the AF3 is closer to the TW than the 1 or 2 but they still differ. The AF3 is more dynamic because it is quieter but I find that the TW is sweeter with less weight.
 

abeidrov

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Hi Jack, are you talking about TW with 3 motors? This is not good news for TechDAS. My system is quite revealing and dynamic already, and I would love to add some sweetness to the sound. Perhaps, I can do this with by combining AF3 with a relevant cartridge? I've heard that ZYX and Koetsu may sound sweet.
 

JackD201

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The TW has wonderful decays. My favorite cart with it is the XV-1t by Dynavector. The Koetsu Jade was slow and plodding on the TW. I think that the AFs in general are pretty colorless and that choice of cart, arm and phono stage are very important in getting things the way one wants. I don't think of it as being either easier or harder, just a matter of perspective. For me it's easier starting with a white piece of paper because I have the flexibility to go one way or the opposite way. Some might just prefer one that leans in a specific direction and that is fine too. I intend to use my AC-3 in a future vintage system. Its attributes are the reason I changed my mind about selling it.

My main rig was a big system with wide dynamic range and very broad extension. My choice for this revealing system was the Air Force One (I have an AF1 Premium incoming). I collect carts and I have the fast and furious like the GFS and Lyra Atlas to the sweet like the Koetsu Jasper Diamond and Proteus. The choice of the Air Force One is based on its silence and ability to play warped records giving the cart's suspension to as they say "a perfect road to run on". It helps that the phono stage I use is also very flexible (JPA-66 by EMT). Being a cart collector I want that blank piece of paper so I hear more of the cart than the table. That said, in the end, its the final result that counts and there are many ways to get there. In my opinion none wrong as long as it sounds the way we want it to eventually. Tomas is likewise a great guy and makes great products. I'm just happy that there are so many choices for music lovers out there to be honest.
 

Audiophile Bill

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I have heard the AFIII thrice now in differing systems and it has always been a long way off AFII and I. Personally I think the magic starts to happen when you get to AFII but YMMV.
 

Ron Resnick

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I have never heard the Air Force III but the first thing I would do before listening to any suspension-less turntable is to put it on a Herzan or something similar.
 

abeidrov

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It looks like AF3 is a much lesser TT, than AF1 or 2. Unfortunately, I cannot afford 1 or 2. So the big question for me: shall I get AF3 or look elsewhere?
 

abeidrov

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I have never heard the Air Force III but the first thing I would do before listening to any suspension-less turntable is to put it on a Herzan or something similar.
That would be still cheaper, than getting an AF2 or AF1 with built in suspension.
 

abeidrov

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I went to the TechDAS distributor in Moscow yesterday, where they displayed AF2 and AF3. The AF2 is really a brutal looking TT, and compare to it, the AF3 looks very tiny. The air pumps units are really silent and just vibrate a little bit. The AF2 air pump unit is much bigger than the one for AF3. No sure why. I asked the distributor, he said: the pump in AF2 is bigger, than the pump in 3 due to the difference in weight. But I checked, and both models have almost the same platter: both made from aluminium, 10kg for AF3 and 9kg in case of AF3. So, the difference in weight is just 1 kg. Maybe better power supply in the AF3?
I really would like to understand what contributes to the better performance of AF2 compare to AF3. So far, the main two differences are the chassis weight and suspension or its absence in case of AF3. So, I wonder, if I add a good active or passive suspension platform to AF3, as Ron suggested, will it bring AF3 closer in performance to AF2?
Jack, maybe you can comment, as you seem to have the most knowledge about TechDAS here?

Thanks in advance.
 
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JackD201

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Hi Aziz

I wish I could be sure. Here I display all models on excellent Critical Mass Systems passive filter/racks. As I've never actually had the need for active isolation (no subsonic feedback even at high levels with 4 15" powered subs with 1,000 watts each behind them) I really couldn't say what effect an active filter might have with the AF3. What I can say is that these tables' noise drops as you go up the range. The AF3 in my albeit limited experience is only bettered by the 3's three bigger brothers. The rumble and surface noise in-between tracks is where one experiences these most obviously. This is actually, as I've posted earlier what makes it very appealing for me and my revealing system. Fortunately the color that is on the 3 is heard more as warmth or rounding of the upper bass and a slight truncation of the deepest bass sustains, think of it as a slight bass hump on a speaker which some people actually like as I do in other contexts. its something akin to that. The top end is very similar to a 2 probably because their platters are similarly built. The 1s differ more because of the varying choice of the upper platter materials. For example, Steve and I prefer the Duralumin while Christian and David prefer the stainless steel. This may just be down to taste, system dependence or even a combination of the two.
 

bonzo75

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I like the duralumin I have heard at Steve's, and which is in many Munich rooms. I believe that is the thing that gives the midbass jump. Is the 3 closer to that or to the SS. From your description it sounds it's closer to the duralmin, but is not made of duralmin?
 

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