What is it about the bass, that it becomes so robust with after-market cords and conditioners?

Status
Not open for further replies.

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
IMHO the OP question is biased - some after market cables can make bass lean or fat, not robust. And we can not separate our perception of bass from the whole spectra - some very small changes in other zones can affect bass "robustness".

Caesar biased? Maybe a little, but not enough to make a huge difference. :b

Powered subs; they use external AC power cords, with a ground (three prongs). Some use two prongs. Some come with the power cord attached to them.
Practicality is in a separate one. The rest I leave it to the experts.
 

BlueFox

Member Sponsor
Nov 8, 2013
1,709
406
405
Measuring current is possible. I've never, ever, seen someone do it in such a way that it was relevant to audio playback for phase. I don't know if the equipment is sensitive enough to make it worth it, either. It would probably require some fascinating software for high quality evaluation.

"For years, the debate has raged on-line and off regarding the perceived value of after-market power cords within professional and consumer audio-video systems. Though there are many sound and visual professionals who report experiencing dramatic differences when replacing stock power cords, there are still skeptics who point to a lack of measurements as proof that no real difference can exist.

Shunyata Research scientist, Caelin Gabriel, has put an end to the debate by revealing not only one -- but three dramatic measured differences between stock power cords and an inexpensive audio-grade power cord."

http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/support/technical-articles/128-dtcd/308-dtcd-tech
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
What connectors and fuses do you use and have you experimented with them on your hospital grade cables?

I've been doing this for a very long time Barry, I had a chance to compare many high priced cords to hospital grade stock ones (not saying that they're all good for audio, many are horrible) including some brands that I was distributing and I ended up preferring and recommending the very cheap stock cords to my own financial detriment.

Many of the expensive audiophile connecters you see are made by the same Taiwanese factories, you can order their entire catalog and try them out and that's why I did when I was interested including anything I could get my hands on in home depot and graingers. Of course I had to waste more money and time on your well known audiophile brands to discover that it's the same product as the unbranded one from the same factory.

Fuses, capacitors, transistors and other high quality parts are made by companies with decades of experience, engineering and knowledge in state of the art multi-million dollar manufacturing facilities, do you actually believe that the overpriced rebranded audiophile parts are made in someone's basement using a secret sauce? These parts are made in the millions by these facilities, there are no small batches for the audiophile market. If you're referring to the ones sold on audiogon by some guy for hundreds of dollars claiming some precious materials inside, yes I've heard them in customer's systems and then I've had to send that same equipment back to the manufacturer because it blew up. I would never trust my equipment to unverified untested fuses or parts with no specs.

Spend your money on quality electronics, speakers, turntables, cartridges, tonearms etc., you'll never recover what you've lost buying lesser equipment with any cords, wires or tweaks. There are fundamental engineering principles and rules that you can't fudge no matter what some claim.

david
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
"For years, the debate has raged on-line and off regarding the perceived value of after-market power cords within professional and consumer audio-video systems. Though there are many sound and visual professionals who report experiencing dramatic differences when replacing stock power cords, there are still skeptics who point to a lack of measurements as proof that no real difference can exist.

Shunyata Research scientist, Caelin Gabriel, has put an end to the debate by revealing not only one -- but three dramatic measured differences between stock power cords and an inexpensive audio-grade power cord."

http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/support/technical-articles/128-dtcd/308-dtcd-tech

I'm looking forward to the contribution of two of our top analysts.
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
"For years, the debate has raged on-line and off regarding the perceived value of after-market power cords within professional and consumer audio-video systems. Though there are many sound and visual professionals who report experiencing dramatic differences when replacing stock power cords, there are still skeptics who point to a lack of measurements as proof that no real difference can exist.

Shunyata Research scientist, Caelin Gabriel, has put an end to the debate by revealing not only one -- but three dramatic measured differences between stock power cords and an inexpensive audio-grade power cord."

http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/support/technical-articles/128-dtcd/308-dtcd-tech

The mistake you're making is that if it measures different then it must sound better. Do you even know what they used for their so called stock cord? Do you know how the test was conducted and under what conditions? Most importantly did you try that particular stock cord against the Shunyata to know which sounds better in your system? I bet the answer is NO to all! What signifies audio grade and standard quality? Price? Any examples of such audio specific standard cords?

I apologize for my tone Bud and don't want to get on your case but I have to point out the flaws in your end of debate argument. All we see in that graph is that under some unknown conditions wire A can pass more current the unknown wire B, that's all and so what?

david
 

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 25, 2015
6,024
1,490
520
Eastern WA
"For years, the debate has raged on-line and off regarding the perceived value of after-market power cords within professional and consumer audio-video systems. Though there are many sound and visual professionals who report experiencing dramatic differences when replacing stock power cords, there are still skeptics who point to a lack of measurements as proof that no real difference can exist.

Shunyata Research scientist, Caelin Gabriel, has put an end to the debate by revealing not only one -- but three dramatic measured differences between stock power cords and an inexpensive audio-grade power cord."

http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/support/technical-articles/128-dtcd/308-dtcd-tech

Not useful.
 

BlueFox

Member Sponsor
Nov 8, 2013
1,709
406
405
Perhaps it is useful or isn't useful, but a very successful company has been built on their technology, and there are many satisfied customers. I know who I believe, and who to ignore.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
37
0
Seattle, WA
RF is cumulative, not a problem like a ground loop that's often on/off. It's always there, literally, but doesn't mean it has anything to do with hearing it distinct from the music. It does however change the music. You're into tubes, so RF is often lower in many key areas due to how typical topology of tube amps.
Again, RF can be measured. Do you not know how to measure it and verify this hypothesis either?

What does RF intrusion sound like anyway? How does it decrease bass which is OP's question?
 

treitz3

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dec 25, 2011
5,459
961
1,290
The tube lair in beautiful Rock Hill, SC
Perhaps it is useful or isn't useful, but a very successful company has been built on their technology, and there are many satisfied customers. I know who I believe, and who to ignore.

That is very vague. Would you care to explain?

Company? Technology? Customers? Is believing actually a part of the equation or ignoring?

Tom
 

Kingsrule

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2011
1,432
681
1,430
ddk

Instead of all the confusion/mystery here could u please provide the manufacture/link of the pc cords u use?

im sure many would be grateful for this info..
 

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,126
651
1,200
Alto, NM
Perhaps it is useful or isn't useful, but a very successful company has been built on their technology, and there are many satisfied customers. I know who I believe, and who to ignore.

Thank you Bud for your observations. Having just finished swapping out my four PC's over the past two months and replacing with Shunyata Research products, I totally agree with your observations.

I record all listening levels in 0.7db increments with each CD I play. My listening volume levels for all music has dropped 2 to 4 db with a noticeable increase in dimensionality / soundstage size accompanied by major "definition" improvements in the mid bass / lower bass area. Also, there seems to be a significant drop in overall "noise".

Put all this together and I can fully understand why people like the SR power cords.
 

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,126
651
1,200
Alto, NM
Is believing actually a part of the equation or ignoring?

Tom

If it is a belief founded on numerous personal experiences over an extended period of time, I would suggest that the answer to your question is yes.
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
318
565
BiggestLittleCity

treitz3

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dec 25, 2011
5,459
961
1,290
The tube lair in beautiful Rock Hill, SC
If it is a belief founded on numerous personal experiences over an extended period of time, I would suggest that the answer to your question is yes.
Here are my thoughts on that. Whether or not their are changes has IMO nothing to do with any belief system. They either make a difference or they do not. Much like a woman being pregnant or not. She either is or isn't pregnant. There is no "belief" that she is pregnant.

Tom
 

BlueFox

Member Sponsor
Nov 8, 2013
1,709
406
405
Thank you Bud for your observations. Having just finished swapping out my four PC's over the past two months and replacing with Shunyata Research products, I totally agree with your observations.

I record all listening levels in 0.7db increments with each CD I play. My listening volume levels for all music has dropped 2 to 4 db with a noticeable increase in dimensionality / soundstage size accompanied by major "definition" improvements in the mid bass / lower bass area. Also, there seems to be a significant drop in overall "noise".

Put all this together and I can fully understand why people like the SR power cords.

Good for you. From my perspective, Shunyata gear performs exactly as they claim. As an engineer I love how they show their patents, explain their technology, and provide measurements to support their products. To my knowledge, not many cable companies do that. If Caelin says something about their technology then I believe him. Especially since he backs up his words with data. Compare that to the trolls and skeptics here, and on other sites, who have no experience, but know everything. :)

I sent in my Triton v2 this week for an upgrade to v3. If it works half as well as the v1 to v2 upgrade then I will be happy.
 

Kingsrule

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2011
1,432
681
1,430
So ddk got me thinking about pc's

So, I replaced the Anaconda Zitron pc's on the Soulution 511's with their stock pc's.....he might have a solid observation on pc's here

More to follow as the stock cords settle in.........
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
So ddk got me thinking about pc's

So, I replaced the Anaconda Zitron pc's on the Soulution 511's with their stock pc's.....he might have a solid observation on pc's here

More to follow as the stock cords settle in.........

Kingsrule, glad to see that you have an open mind, just a couple of things to listen for, best is a trio or quartet with voice;

- More natural dynamics, there should be different dimensions and volume levels between the instruments and voice and continue to change along with the music.

- Recordings have their own natural ambience and you should be able to hear differences among them.

- Dark, black, velvety, etc. don't exist in reality, it's a cable artifact.

- Soundstage dimensions should change with different recordings as do the size of images, a framed soundstage with images placed in same locations in soundstage on every recording is a cable coloration.

A telltale sign is when any or all of these cable artifacts are always there impressing you and competing with the beauty and subtleties of music. System artifacts shouldn't impress you! Unfortunately cables, power conditioners and other AC related boxes have an accumulative effect and even one will color everything. It's best to start over, unplug all conditioners, etc. and start with basic stock cords so you have a reference point, then introduce each item individually and listen for any of the above.

The cords I use are Ching Cheng brand, type PVC.PLUG EL-304, 14 AWG. I haven't tested the current version but I'm told by those who have the older versions they got from me sound better but these are still better than anything else they've tried.

http://www.chingcheng.com/ul-csa.html

I also recommend to purge your system of all audiophile wires if you really want to know what's going on. Radioshack has some great inexpensive wires for you to use as a reference. I don't claim that they're best but there's absolutely nothing wrong with them. They're not colored and they don't do anything special so you can actually hear your system instead of your wires. This is what I recommended to all my friends & customers with ultra high end systems as a starting point, many are still using them.

Speaker cable,

https://www.radioshack.com/products/16-gauge-megacable-50-ft

Interconnects, they have them in many lengths

https://www.radioshack.com/products/6-stereo-audio-cable-with-rca

david
 

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,126
651
1,200
Alto, NM
Here are my thoughts on that. Whether or not their are changes has IMO nothing to do with any belief system. They either make a difference or they do not. Much like a woman being pregnant or not. She either is or isn't pregnant. There is no "belief" that she is pregnant.

Tom

I think you missed my point.
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
Deleted, post didn't serve a purpose!
 
Last edited:

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
I also recommend to purge your system of all audiophile wires if you really want to know what's going on. Radioshack has some great inexpensive wires for you to use as a reference. I don't claim that they're best but there's absolutely nothing wrong with them. They're not colored and they don't do anything special so you can actually hear your system instead of your wires. This is what I recommended to all my friends & customers with ultra high end systems as a starting point, many are still using them.

Speaker cable,

https://www.radioshack.com/products/16-gauge-megacable-50-ft

Interconnects, they have them in many lengths

https://www.radioshack.com/products/6-stereo-audio-cable-with-rca

david

http://www.businessinsider.com/radioshack-stores-are-closing-heres-why-2017-3

I'm just mentioning because it was on the news yesterday. Still, Home Depot is open for business, and The Source too.
______
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing