Hey guys I am thinking about bi amping my system and using an active xover. Anyone here have any expirence with active xovers, or advice on which xovers to stay away from???
Jay
Jay
Advice on xovers for Bi-Amping
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The ones I have used (numerous, including a number of custom active and passive units) would be dated now so I can't help with current stuff. What speakers do you have, and what do you know about their crossovers? What's your technical knowledge base? Realistically, and IMO, trying to dial in an active crossover without a decent amount of technical knowledge and some measurement equipment can be teedious, painful and unfulfilling.
That said, the program I currently use for measurements (RPlusD) has some great optional modules to find settings for various digital filter systems and includes a lot of algorithms and features to help build crossover networks. If you're willing to invest the time in the tools, the result coiuld be very impressive.
My system was bi-amped last time I had it running and it made a huge difference in sound (yes, a good difference!) Now, however, I do not feel the need to repeat with my current electronics and room. I find the benefit to be rather system-specific.
HTH, YMMV - Don
That said, the program I currently use for measurements (RPlusD) has some great optional modules to find settings for various digital filter systems and includes a lot of algorithms and features to help build crossover networks. If you're willing to invest the time in the tools, the result coiuld be very impressive.
My system was bi-amped last time I had it running and it made a huge difference in sound (yes, a good difference!) Now, however, I do not feel the need to repeat with my current electronics and room. I find the benefit to be rather system-specific.
HTH, YMMV - Don
My speakers are Klipsch Khorns with upgraded drivers and passive xovers. I am using a 2" driver BMS 4592 mid, 2" tractrix horn from Volti Audio xovers are ALK Universal's. With an upgraded tweeter as well.
Amir, for the time being I just want to get my feet wet, I am going to borrow my friends SS amp for the LF and buy a xover yet to be determined!!
Jay
K-horns have a fairly simple crossover, I think... Been ages since I heard (or tore apart) a pair. Seems like it was 2nd-order LPF to the bass, but might be 3rd-order HPF to the upper horn. If you can, look up specs on them (or the drivers) or test results and see if you can tell the crossover order, then you may be able to get away with a pretty simple design.
You might check out Sweetwater Sound (www.sweetwater.com) and similar pro outlets for crossovers. Chances are you can get a pretty decent one for not a lot of money that has very flexible control, like one of the DSP-based units. There are also cheap analog models, though the very cheapest tend to be noisy.
You might check out Sweetwater Sound (www.sweetwater.com) and similar pro outlets for crossovers. Chances are you can get a pretty decent one for not a lot of money that has very flexible control, like one of the DSP-based units. There are also cheap analog models, though the very cheapest tend to be noisy.
Here are the specs of my current xovers!!!
Crossover rates are 6 dB / Octave on the woofer. 12 dB / Octave on the squawker and 18 dB / octave on the tweeter.
Crossover frequency is 400 Hz from woofer to squawker and 6000 Hz from squawker to tweeter.
The network is a true multiplexer providing constant load impedance to the amplifier. The amplifier sees the speaker drivers, not the network! With the woofer and tweeter outputs terminated in 8 Ohms and the squawker output terminated by 13 Ohms, the input polar impedance to the network is approximately 8 Ohms +-1 Ohm at +-10 degrees from 20 Hz to 20 KHz.
Jay
In the proper frequency region, any amp should "see" just the driver, though there is some phase shift added by the crossover network.
I would be less concerned with the amp's load (input impedance) than the measured speaker output response (frequency and phase; a pulse test would be good to do).
There are a number of suitable crossovers, though many are only two channels. Again, I have not experience with current consumer (and few pro) models so hopefully somebody else can help with makers and models.
The woofer crosses over pretty high and pretty soft; I'd be real tempted to try a second-order filter response and see if the lower midrange is better without the woofer in the picture quite so much.
Please forgive me if I am talking "down" to you -- I don't kow your level of technical expertise. And, I am not a speaker designer by trade, so am not myself any sort of expert.
HTH - Don
I would be less concerned with the amp's load (input impedance) than the measured speaker output response (frequency and phase; a pulse test would be good to do).
There are a number of suitable crossovers, though many are only two channels. Again, I have not experience with current consumer (and few pro) models so hopefully somebody else can help with makers and models.
The woofer crosses over pretty high and pretty soft; I'd be real tempted to try a second-order filter response and see if the lower midrange is better without the woofer in the picture quite so much.
Please forgive me if I am talking "down" to you -- I don't kow your level of technical expertise. And, I am not a speaker designer by trade, so am not myself any sort of expert.
HTH - Don
While there are fancier units out there, if you want to get started on some experimention for a very reasonable cost, you might want to check out the MiniDSP. Once you have things working you can then decide if you want to explore more exotic options.
Don gives great advice when he states that to do actives right, you need to have a measurement rig, and be willing to learn enough about interpretation of measurements and how the selected crossover device works to obtain best results.
One of the biggest benefits to be derived from active x-overs is in the time domain, as perfectly aligning the impulse responses of all drivers both within a speaker yields many audible benefits. Stunningly focused soundstages are the most noticeable.
This requires a crossover than can apply delays. So basic analog actives might not be able to provide the flexibility one needs.
I've use all kinds of actives over the past decade, but my favorites by far are the DBX DriveRack series. The 260 is a workhorse and still sounds good 10 years after introduction, but the best is the DBX DriveRack 4800, with 4 in and 8 out flexibility (bridgeable to 8x16 across two units), it's the real go-to for flexibility and control. It's what I use on my customized MartinLogan set.
Once you go active, there's no going back
One of the biggest benefits to be derived from active x-overs is in the time domain, as perfectly aligning the impulse responses of all drivers both within a speaker yields many audible benefits. Stunningly focused soundstages are the most noticeable.
This requires a crossover than can apply delays. So basic analog actives might not be able to provide the flexibility one needs.
I've use all kinds of actives over the past decade, but my favorites by far are the DBX DriveRack series. The 260 is a workhorse and still sounds good 10 years after introduction, but the best is the DBX DriveRack 4800, with 4 in and 8 out flexibility (bridgeable to 8x16 across two units), it's the real go-to for flexibility and control. It's what I use on my customized MartinLogan set.
Once you go active, there's no going back
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Hi Jay
I try to share some experience in multi amp set up, first if you can get (buy or borrow) a xover that has selectable frequencies and db/octave that will really help, like Pioneer D30 xover it can be used for 2 to 4 ways with selectable frequency+db/oct,and gain control too although pre set will not be very good sounding but you use it to find out the best for your room and equipments first then you can change to a fixed xover later, crossover point don't need to be the same for both channels it will depend by amp's gain and out put, room effect, speaker's driver characters and the db/oct which you picked, phase shift will change to zero with xover move to before power amp so alignment of drivers is necessarily, front and back move can do, about the crossover point for example 400HZ for your woofer and squawker you should try 200 and 400 in 6db/oct, 300 and 400 in 12db/oct + gain control by that two amps try whatever combination for the best sounding, after you got the answer you can choose a passive filter (LC) or active with CR in fixed, my favor is passive, all amps should choose same type, higher power in low end less power in high end mix up with tube and SS is not prefer , it will take a lot of time and work but also will have fun and big return
cheers
tony ma
At the risk of soiling this fine venue with my vial, low class filfth, I will recommend the Behringer DXC2496 as a versatile, transparent, and very economical crossover/loudspeaker management system. It offers delay lines, time arrival detection and alignmment, various EQs, slopes, filter types and does all through crystal clear AKM A/D converters, offers 3 inputs and 6 outputs, balanced throughout. I own three. Have two of them in my system. Very pleased with how they've transformed the system, over my self-designed crossover that I developed using state variable filters in 1982. The time alignment was a crucial key to getting square wave response in the listener position, and rock solid soundstage and imaging.
The benefits of active systems are only system-specific to the extent that some passive systems minimize their inherent distortions better than others. Given good enough passive systems, I suppose those benefits would be theoretically inaudible.
Tim
You may want to ask Greg Roberts at Volti Audio for his opinions about bi-amping/crossovering your Volti-moded K-Horns. He seems to favor tubed equipment with his mods and his own Vittora speakers. See his equipment list from this year's RMAF at http://www.voltiaudio.com/newsletter/NL19.shtml
I have the Behringer crossover and companion DEQ2496 equalizer which is what Sanders recommends for my Sanders 10C hybrid electrostat speakers. That works okay, but in my system, using four of the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps, there is WAY too much quiescent hiss using either the crossover or the equalizer. The gain of those units seems way too high for consumer audio systems, in my opinion. They are probably fine with power amps that have volume controls on the inputs, as many, if not most pro-audio amps do.
I tried living with the hiss for awhile, but overall my fully Maui-Modded TacT RCS 2.2XP AAA is a much better solution. Everything the Behringer combo can do function-wise, the TacT can do better, and then some, and the sound is far better to boot. Of course, there is a 10 to 1 price difference and TacT as a company is now seemingly in limbo.
Web comment about the noise with the Behringer equipment seems quite divided. Some don't hear a problem at all, others can't stand the noise. Much may depend on just what equipment you are trying to mate the Behringers with, especially the amp's gain. Roger Sanders claims he hears no excess noise. I'll be polite and just say I beg to differ.
Lots of folks really like the Behringer crossover but they also like to fiddle with it. There is an active Yahoo forum for mods to the Behringer crossover. It is also good enough to be the subject of extensive tweaking by ace-tweaker/modder Ric Schulz of Electronic Visionary Systems. See http://www.tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Behringer_DCX2496_mods.html
I tried living with the hiss for awhile, but overall my fully Maui-Modded TacT RCS 2.2XP AAA is a much better solution. Everything the Behringer combo can do function-wise, the TacT can do better, and then some, and the sound is far better to boot. Of course, there is a 10 to 1 price difference and TacT as a company is now seemingly in limbo.
Web comment about the noise with the Behringer equipment seems quite divided. Some don't hear a problem at all, others can't stand the noise. Much may depend on just what equipment you are trying to mate the Behringers with, especially the amp's gain. Roger Sanders claims he hears no excess noise. I'll be polite and just say I beg to differ.
Lots of folks really like the Behringer crossover but they also like to fiddle with it. There is an active Yahoo forum for mods to the Behringer crossover. It is also good enough to be the subject of extensive tweaking by ace-tweaker/modder Ric Schulz of Electronic Visionary Systems. See http://www.tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Behringer_DCX2496_mods.html
I don't think you can beat a system with active crossovers and having the amplifiers directly connected to the speaker drivers as I have discussed in other similar threads. Once again, I'm wearing my flameproof suit.
Regarding active crossovers, my favorite is the Pass Labs XVR1. It is fully analog and is a great piece of equipment. I use the three-way version on my speakers to fully separate woofers, midranges and tweeters. That also means i have six channels of amplifiers for a two channel stereo system. There are no subwoofers in that system. To separate your mains from the sub, you need a two-way crossover.
The Bryston is also a superb two way STEREO or three way MONO crossover. They make three different, but similar models-see their website. I have the model 10B-STD also, but I am not using it (and I have it up for sale and it has literally about two hours on the clock and 19.5 years remaining on its transferable warranty) because it is a two way crossover, and was not compatible with my Infinity crossover to create a discrete three-way system, which is why I finally got the Pass Labs and eliminated the original Infinity crossover. The Bryston is however, a very fine crossover. I would say it is the Mercedes S class and the Pass Labs is the Rolls Royce because of its extreme flexibility. In retrospect, I purchased it by mistake.
Velodyne has an active crossover for their subs, but I am not familiar with them.
Marshand also make active crossovers like the XM-44, which is well regarded and very reasonable in price. Here's a link with more info on that piece: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...achapter43.htm
Finally, if you want a completely digital active crossover, Accuphase makes the DF-55 but it will set you back about $20,000+.
Regarding active crossovers, my favorite is the Pass Labs XVR1. It is fully analog and is a great piece of equipment. I use the three-way version on my speakers to fully separate woofers, midranges and tweeters. That also means i have six channels of amplifiers for a two channel stereo system. There are no subwoofers in that system. To separate your mains from the sub, you need a two-way crossover.
The Bryston is also a superb two way STEREO or three way MONO crossover. They make three different, but similar models-see their website. I have the model 10B-STD also, but I am not using it (and I have it up for sale and it has literally about two hours on the clock and 19.5 years remaining on its transferable warranty) because it is a two way crossover, and was not compatible with my Infinity crossover to create a discrete three-way system, which is why I finally got the Pass Labs and eliminated the original Infinity crossover. The Bryston is however, a very fine crossover. I would say it is the Mercedes S class and the Pass Labs is the Rolls Royce because of its extreme flexibility. In retrospect, I purchased it by mistake.
Velodyne has an active crossover for their subs, but I am not familiar with them.
Marshand also make active crossovers like the XM-44, which is well regarded and very reasonable in price. Here's a link with more info on that piece: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...achapter43.htm
Finally, if you want a completely digital active crossover, Accuphase makes the DF-55 but it will set you back about $20,000+.
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