Herzan Active Platform on Critical Mass or Harmonic Resolution Shelf and Rack

PeterA · Mar 4, 2017

ddk said:
It's hard to say what's the cause spirit, there could be several reasons for what you're describing and it could be that's how your vinyl front end always sounded you just didn't hear it because your previous space muddled everything including your digital. You did say that improvements are through the roof in the new room! I wouldn't rush into making an expensive purchase of this nature without figuring out what's really wrong with your tt setup.

david

Spirit, I'd say Dave nails it. You started a whole thread not long ago about your analog versus digital in your new listening room. There is clearly still an issue with your analog. You write a long post about possible explanations like VTF, VTA, some LPs sound good, others don't etc. etc. (Personally, the variations you describe between one LP and another, are similar to what I hear if I don't adjust VTA for different LPs) I think you need to find out what your turntable/arm issues are. You may now just be hearing a more honest presentation of your analog gear. In your other thread you mention some other turntables that you would like to try. Why not get one or two of those into your new listening room and hear what they sound like. You may discover that your floor is not the source of the issues.

You can also try to locate your turntable rack close to a side wall to lesson the effect of the springy floor. There are so many possibilities, I would do a lot more research and experimentation before spending a lot of money on an active isolation platform expecting that it will solve all of your issues.

Perhaps you should take this discussion back to your other analog vs digital thread.

ddk · Mar 4, 2017

I hear you Mark, been exactly where you are and feel your pain

...

To be clear I have nothing against active platforms both Mike L & Christian have experienced positive results with their setups but they're fine tuning a system that's already functioning at a high level not resurrecting the dead. I'm not there so I'll just put out some things for you try out.

- First borrow a different tt/arm/cartridge to try out there are way too many moving parts in yours to troubleshoot online, and there's the move.

- Failing that disconnect your grounding litter boxes and bypass any isolation transformers in line with your system's AC. Actually you can start here too!

- Reverse any changes you made to the new system since the move, new wires, cords or other tweaks, new components?

- Remove the roller balls your Symposium platform if you have them.

Good luck!

david

spiritofmusic said:
Dave, as I've grown older, the ironies of life become more marked
So, the room is a triumph in every way, if I was just listening to digital
Neutral and slightly damped, slap echo seems good ie present but not over reverberant, no apparent bass nodes
The moment I fired up my digital, the hairs on the back of my neck and arm went up, £60k/$90k of investment in a dedicated space w great acoustics and vastly purer power compared to London immed apparent as bigger soundstage, imaging I was never aware capable, bass extension and articulation and top end air
Just no downside at all
At a reasonable estimate, 3x better than my old space
No expense on uber pricey gear could have got me this in my old apartment
So now comes the grand irony
I install my tt, w cart dealer we spend a good 2-3 hrs levelling tt, plinth, platter, all CHECK, cart alignment device, vta, vtf, azimuth, all CHECK
And then proceed to play some wax
A lot of the impvts from my digital experience is there esp bass articulation and extension and stage width
I'm hearing details I haven't before on many lps
But on many others, something is lacking, as if there is a level of sub audible grunge masking treble sparkle and top end air
Manifesting itself as a lack of energy and overall transparency
But not on every Lp, and the overall tonal balance seems the same (ie I know it's my tt, it hasn't "changed" character as such)

So these are my thoughts
The digital has the shackles taken off by the new acoustics/electrics, all upside, no down
The analog has had its pants pulled down by the new blank canvas, and is a tad exposed and showing its limitations, despite the overall tonal character and aural signature being identical to before
Maybe things are so variable Lp to Lp w this microscope of a room, that vta needs to be adjusted Lp to Lp
Critically, my air arm is v fussy re losing locked in Vtf, due to the way the sensitive cart tonearm wires are dressed and pulled slightly as the air arm tracks, and this may be introducing slowing of sound I'm much more aware of
Maybe even, after a solid year of listening to top top digital in the form of Blue58's SGM server/T&A Dac8/HQP/dsd512, I've actually for the first time really "got" digital, I now prefer it, and "hear" analog as flawed

I'm not joking on this last point, I really really want for nothing when I hear Barry's top end digital

Now, my tt and arm are by no means "top end" either in price £4K/$7k, or uber engineering and finish, but I find the max torque rim drive and magetically isolated platter together w linear tracking air arm really convincing on bass start/stop, and detail retrieval, and throw in the speed and neutrality of my Soundsmith Straingauge cart w batt psu, urgency of sound and top end incision weren't missing in my prev place, but they are here

My guess is the problem is an amalgam
Flexy 50x18 floor introducing massive demands on the analog that active isolation would solve in an instant
My analog just revealed to be lacking that last 10%
My hard to sort vtf issues again laid bare in the new room
My late late conversion to top digital and seeming unhappiness w analog in comparison full stop

Time for me to stop hogging the aether

Ron Resnick · Mar 4, 2017

LL21 said:
I have read somewhere it is the combination of the materials that matters (was it Andy Payor at Rockport when describing how he creates the monocoque set of materials for his speaker cabinetry?). I believe HRS shelves are a combination of Granite, Aluminum, special Elastomer in some kind of sandwich combination?

Layers of dissimilar laminated materials also can be good. That's how I came up with my proposed sandwich of steel with a lead slab in the middle all laminated together.

spiritofmusic · Mar 4, 2017

Agreed, don't want to hog this thread
Suffice to say, it's an area for future investigation
The relevance to this thread is that despite my new room being a quantum leap impvt re acoustics and power over my previous space, the one area that is definitely more challenging is going from v solid concrete flr to large span springy suspended
And if anything can take that deficit out of the equation, it will be active isolation
The good news is a no obligation trial on SR active isolation is a doddle to arrange compared to a/b'g my tt v another model
I mean, how many dealers would bring an analog rig over just to see if my current one is underperforming? Less than one, I'm sure

JackD201 · Mar 4, 2017

LL21 said:
I have read somewhere it is the combination of the materials that matters (was it Andy Payor at Rockport when describing how he creates the monocoque set of materials for his speaker cabinetry?). I believe HRS shelves are a combination of Granite, Aluminum, special Elastomer in some kind of sandwich combination?

The most revered passives all have the "sandwich" in common. Constrained Layer Damping is a very practical way to do things even if one already has good composites on hand.

ddk · Mar 4, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
The good news is a no obligation trial on SR active isolation is a doddle to arrange compared to a/b'g my tt v another model
I mean, how many dealers would bring an analog rig over just to see if my current one is underperforming? Less than one, I'm sure

But I bet getting your tt on & off a few times isn't a doddle

! You don't have any audio buddies with an easy to travel with tt like a Linn, Lenco, Garrard, etc.?

david

spiritofmusic · Mar 4, 2017

Actually Dave, as fate would have it, things showing promise on the analog front
Whether there is a tad of bias after I got back from a day out where I listened to WE15a replicas horns w LM compression drivers that just didn't "speak" to me, or whether a few recent nudges and tweaks on my tt has borne fruit, or if components and dedicated lines are starting to open up and gel, my Lp listening in the last hour has taken a big step fwd to what I was used to and have loved
Not quite there, but much closer

PeterA · Mar 4, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Agreed, don't want to hog this thread
Suffice to say, it's an area for future investigation
The relevance to this thread is that despite my new room being a quantum leap impvt re acoustics and power over my previous space, the one area that is definitely more challenging is going from v solid concrete flr to large span springy suspended
And if anything can take that deficit out of the equation, it will be active isolation
The good news is a no obligation trial on SR active isolation is a doddle to arrange compared to a/b'g my tt v another model
I mean, how many dealers would bring an analog rig over just to see if my current one is underperforming? Less than one, I'm sure

Spirit, as Dave wrote, ask a friend. I have a buddy in town and asked him to bring over his table to compare to mine. We have the same tonearm and cartridge, but different tables: SME 30/12 and a Technics SP10 MK3. It was a lot of fun and told us a lot about the two tables. It really was not that difficult an exercise, and it was quite fascinating to do the comparison with only one changing variable.

Ron Resnick · Mar 4, 2017

I do not see how placing a tube phono preamp on top of a Herzan on top of the top shelf of a CMS/HRS/SRA rack can be a bad thing (cost aside, obviously).

What is the exact theory as to why placing an active Herzan on a passive CMS/HRS/SRA shelf on a CMS/HRS/SRA rack is a bad idea?

Is the theory that the active vibration control technique of the Herzan and the passive vibration control technique of the CMS/HRS/SRA will cancel out the benefits of each?

Is the theory that somehow vibration will be added to the combined system?

Is the theory that combining them will result in no sonic improvement or no sonic change and, therefore, simply is a waste of money?

If the CMS/HRS/SRA components have no visco-elastic anything or squishy absorbers, and they are not susceptible of any movement at all during use, then why would placing a Herzan on top of any of them impair in any way the functioning of the Herzan?

(I ask this question with puzzlement because Herzan offers an optional visco-elastic layer at the top of their rack just below the active Herzan device. So if a squishy layer doesn't confuse the Herzan device then how can a collection of non-moving, passive isolation CMS/HRS/SRA parts confuse the Herzan device?)

spiritofmusic · Mar 4, 2017

After a lot of impvt in my analog presentation this evening, I'm now minded to trial the Spiers lab grade isoln for my tt
My idea is to get a super inert 2 tier rack to house the tt and Straingauge psu, pop a Spiers on the top tier, and the tt on the Spiers
And maybe site this away from btwn the spkrs ie away from the position of max flexing of flr, poss to the side of my listening chair
Spiers is a company up there w Herzan and Accurion, and fascinatingly, the chief designer who has thought long and hard about the demands a tt puts on isoln, is ADAMANT their passive air shelf is better suited than their active electronic
Analogous to a more modern reliable Vibraplane preferred over Herzan
The reason he gives is that while the usual electron microscopes etc that is their normal gear used on isoln basically are "quiet" not producing much in the way of noise and vibns, whereas tts are inherently noisy and kinetic, w massy spinning platters, motor movement, tracking tonearms, and undulating cartridges
According to Spiers, tts provide unique demands well above and beyond the usual lab gear, and passive air is the advice
Fascinating at the very least because their air shelves are a third the cost of their electronic ones

PeterA · Mar 4, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
After a lot of impvt in my analog presentation this evening, I'm now minded to trial the Spiers lab grade isoln for my tt
My idea is to get a super inert 2 tier rack to house the tt and Straingauge psu, pop a Spiers on the top tier, and the tt on the Spiers
And maybe site this away from btwn the spkrs ie away from the position of max flexing of flr, poss to the side of my listening chair
Spiers is a company up there w Herzan and Accurion, and fascinatingly, the chief designer who has thought long and hard about the demands a tt puts on isoln, is ADAMANT their passive air shelf is better suited than their active electronic
Analogous to a more modern reliable Vibraplane preferred over Herzan
The reason he gives is that while the usual electron microscopes etc that is their normal gear used on isoln basically are "quiet" not producing much in the way of noise and vibns, whereas tts are inherently noisy and kinetic, w massy spinning platters, motor movement, tracking tonearms, and undulating cartridges
According to Spiers, tts provide unique demands well above and beyond the usual lab gear, and passive air is the advice
Fascinating at the very least because their air shelves are a third the cost of their electronic ones

Glad you are making progress, Marc. Interesting information from our Spiers rep about air versus active for turntables. Please keep us updated with your listening results.

spiritofmusic · Mar 4, 2017

Peter, will do
I'm going to keep in contact w him
He's truly a mine of engineering info and knowhow
I'll ask him a bit more on his preference for passive air
Tbh, after two decades of upgrading, getting to a happy place a year ago, I am beyond relieved I'm converging twds it again
What I'm hoping to find is that moderate outlay of £3.5k/$5k takes things up a level or three
What might be interesting is at a later date combining Spiers isolation to <1Hz and Symposium Quantum Signature constrained layer isolation to >1Hz, esp if Symposium are correct in claiming Spiers would be best for stopping vibns reaching the tt, and their Quantum best in dealing w vibns created by the tt
After spending a small fortune on my room, these "manageable" upgrade costs w potential massive performance/price upsides are what I'm more interested in/can only justify, rather than going back to the drawing board and going for a brand new analog front end
PS being stuck in the country w no friends or audio contacts owning a tt, just no chance of doing a tt swap in my room
Good suggestion nevertheless

Ron Resnick · Mar 4, 2017

I have figured out a way to begin to resolve these mysteries.

Our dear Jack must do some work.

Jack can get a Herzan and then compare:

AF1 on CMS versus AF1 on Herzan versus AF1 on Herzan on CMS

EMT phono on CMS versus EMT phono on Herzan versus EMT phono on Herzan on CMS

Easy-peasy!

rockitman · Mar 4, 2017

The AF1 does not fit directly on a herzan ts140. Its footprint is too big. It must sit on a plate big enough to cover the foot print or on the HRS custom techDas shelf directly on the herzan like I do.

Steve Williams · Mar 4, 2017

rockitman said:
The AF1 does not fit directly on a herzan ts140. Its footprint is too big. It must sit on a plate big enough to cover the foot print or on the HRS custom techDas shelf directly on the herzan like I do.

well that's out as Jack just ordered Maxxum

JackD201 · Mar 4, 2017

I don't have much subsonic activity especially since I'm wood on concrete with an intermediate layer. Where I used to live even if it was a high rise the rumbling of the trains could literally be felt barefoot. My room has a glitch though. My air return ducts resonate audibly with some tracks. Thankfully I normally don't play loud enough to excite them even when playing synth bass at fairly loud volumes. They only get excited with the tracks with long tailed broad spectrum bass which is again, thankfully very rare. If I did live in an area near trains or airports my choice would be to do room within a room construction if I could, Active if I couldn't. I'd probably change out the windows and heavy vinyl barrier the ceilings to go with the actives in the latter case.

bonzo75 · Mar 5, 2017

Jack, can you please elaborate on " I'd probably change out the windows and heavy vinyl barrier the ceilings to go with the actives in the latter case."

spiritofmusic · Mar 5, 2017

Has anyone answered if it's feasible to get the most appropriate Herzan to put on the floor, and multiple tier solid inert rack on top, and effectively isolate tt, digital and amp simultaneously?
I can't see any theoretical reason not to

JackD201 · Mar 5, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Jack, can you please elaborate on " I'd probably change out the windows and heavy vinyl barrier the ceilings to go with the actives in the latter case."

Just extra effort to keep noise from outside out Ked. For windows companies like Kenneth and Mock and Andersen make really good windows that do just that. The ceiling barrier I would use in conjunction with the windows if I was in a flight path.

ddk · Mar 5, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Has anyone answered if it's feasible to get the most appropriate Herzan to put on the floor, and multiple tier solid inert rack on top, and effectively isolate tt, digital and amp simultaneously?
I can't see any theoretical reason not to

Herzan's not a cure for bouncy floors! It's a very sophisticated apparatus you should read their literature to understand what it's designed to do.

david

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