Power cables: What would it take to change your view?

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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Seattle, WA
To change my mind I would need to build an ABX (or AX) box for the power cord where it "makes before breaks" so that I can instantly switch between the two cables without the unit power cycling. I would then run a dozen or so blind tests. If I get essentially perfect identification, I will change my mind. I will have to do this one of these days :).
 

RogerD

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May 23, 2010
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BiggestLittleCity
To change my mind I would need to build an ABX (or AX) box for the power cord where it "makes before breaks" so that I can instantly switch between the two cables without the unit power cycling. I would then run a dozen or so blind tests. If I get essentially perfect identification, I will change my mind. I will have to do this one of these days :).

Can you hear or in your minds eye a difference in the size or quality of the sound stage of different PC's?
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
I'm easy; I trust the pro audio cable reviewers. :b
_____

1. You experiment in your own system.
2. You evaluate from listening with your ears.
3. You perform some tests with a good measuring instrument.
4. You perform more testing; in various systems with various gear.
5. You repeat those tests in more systems of different acoustic rooms.
6. You balance your overall results between a set of concrete listening tests and measurements against your own personal "sound" preference.
7. You accord importance to all variables, small and/or large.
8. You make your own personal decision from those evaluations with objectivity.
9. Only you can assess the relation between improved audio performance and time and money (price) investment.
10. We don't dismiss other's own set of ears and judgement; it can help us to further our knowledge and experiments.

Life's good.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
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SHUNYATA POWER PRODUCTS TESTED IN MEDICAL APPLICATIONS
News
by TAS Staff | Dec 11th, 2015
Categories: AC power cords, Power filters
Shunyata Power Products Tested in Medical Applications
The following is a press release issued by Shunyata Research.

December 11, 2015 - Shunyata Research was invited for a rare opportunity to test its products’ effectiveness in one of the United States finest Electrophysiology labs, at the Minneapolis Heart Institute. Medical Director Dr. Daniel Melby was aware of Shunyata Research’s success in the recording and film industries and was hopeful there could be a parallel benefit in the medical field. Specifically, Dr. Melby wanted to test Shunyata Research products as a means of preventing electrical noise from impacting the ultra-sensitive electronics and monitoring systems used in the many heart procedures he performed daily. The products tested were comprised of a system of Shunyata Research power cords and several six outlet power conditioners.

In the past, the Electrophysiology labs across the US have evaluated a wide variety of filters and power conditioners without success. Dr. Melby tested Shunyata Research products during some of his heart procedures, termed “Ablation procedures”. Dr. Melby invited Shunyata’s Grant Samuelson into the operating room to witness the results, which required dressing in full surgical scrubs, mask and hat.

Dr. Melby performed three heart procedures, using an ascending number of Shunyata products. Each time there was a marked improvement in the system’s resolution. Dr. Melby recorded dramatic reductions in noise-levels as more Shunyata products were applied. Following, are Dr. Melby’s findings and observations based on the heart procedures he performed using Shunyata Research products. Shunyata Research products are now a permanent part of the Operating Room Systems at the Heart Institute and have been recommended to countless other Hospitals based on their dramatic success.


A group of Medical Technicians monitor data and imaging in Abbott Hospital’s Electrophysiology Lab while Dr. Daniel Melby performs a delicate Heart Ablation procedure.

From: Dr. Daniel P. Melby, Medical Director, Minneapolis Heart Institute

First, thank you very very much for your visit today, it was a pleasure meeting you, and I appreciate your time very much and effort. The staff also very much enjoyed having you here. Many among our team said they have never seen cardiac signals looking so good, ever. The best case of the day was the final one — the cardiac signals had both jaw dropping improvement in resolution and noise level.

In regards to noise, which I define as baseline artifact — the noise level on the mapping computer was the lowest I have seen in 10 years and over thousands of cases. In fact, the noise level was below my measurement capabilities (defined as 0.01mV). Visually I would think it was approximately 0.001-0.003mV. Compared to a range of noise prior to this I would estimate at 0.05 to 0.25mV.

In regards to the equally important resolution of cardiac signals, which I define as observed voltage changes over time; on the mapping computer this also was the best that I have ever seen in my lab or any other lab in the world. This was extremely exciting to me. As we discussed at the beginning of the day, normally the resolution of the mapping system is far less than the recording system. With the Shunyata Products, the resolution was better by a nice margin then the recording system. Imagine that, signal amplification and processing through the computer was better than through our 75K signal amplifier!

In short, with the final step of placing the mapping computer on the Shunyata Research system, both resolution and noise were improved to a level that I have never seen, and that I didn’t know was even possible. This improvement can and will result in meaningful improvements in these procedures for our patients.

Daniel P. Melby, MD
Cardiac Electrophysiology
Medical Director, Electrophysiology Lab
Minneapolis Heart Institute


Bio: Dr. Daniel Melby
Director of the electrophysiology lab at the Minneapolis Heart Institute, Dr. Melby has special interest and experience performing complex catheter ablations for treatment of fast heart rhythms, particularly atrial fibrillation. He is a recognized expert, speaking nationally on the latest ablation techniques and technology, and has participated in many national research studies of new ablation technology.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
The problem is that when using bass frequency signals for the measurement you are not dealing with in-rush current and your explanation does not seem acceptable. Amplifier gain does not depend on mains voltage, unless you are clipping the amplifier and there is high distortion. Impulse current can affect subjective sound, but not the objective measurements of amplitude. IMHO we must look more carefully for the situation in order to find an acceptable explanation.


I don't buy any of that
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
319
565
BiggestLittleCity
SHUNYATA POWER PRODUCTS TESTED IN MEDICAL APPLICATIONS
News
by TAS Staff | Dec 11th, 2015
Categories: AC power cords, Power filters
Shunyata Power Products Tested in Medical Applications
The following is a press release issued by Shunyata Research.

December 11, 2015 - Shunyata Research was invited for a rare opportunity to test its products’ effectiveness in one of the United States finest Electrophysiology labs, at the Minneapolis Heart Institute. Medical Director Dr. Daniel Melby was aware of Shunyata Research’s success in the recording and film industries and was hopeful there could be a parallel benefit in the medical field. Specifically, Dr. Melby wanted to test Shunyata Research products as a means of preventing electrical noise from impacting the ultra-sensitive electronics and monitoring systems used in the many heart procedures he performed daily. The products tested were comprised of a system of Shunyata Research power cords and several six outlet power conditioners.

In the past, the Electrophysiology labs across the US have evaluated a wide variety of filters and power conditioners without success. Dr. Melby tested Shunyata Research products during some of his heart procedures, termed “Ablation procedures”. Dr. Melby invited Shunyata’s Grant Samuelson into the operating room to witness the results, which required dressing in full surgical scrubs, mask and hat.

Dr. Melby performed three heart procedures, using an ascending number of Shunyata products. Each time there was a marked improvement in the system’s resolution. Dr. Melby recorded dramatic reductions in noise-levels as more Shunyata products were applied. Following, are Dr. Melby’s findings and observations based on the heart procedures he performed using Shunyata Research products. Shunyata Research products are now a permanent part of the Operating Room Systems at the Heart Institute and have been recommended to countless other Hospitals based on their dramatic success.


A group of Medical Technicians monitor data and imaging in Abbott Hospital’s Electrophysiology Lab while Dr. Daniel Melby performs a delicate Heart Ablation procedure.

From: Dr. Daniel P. Melby, Medical Director, Minneapolis Heart Institute

First, thank you very very much for your visit today, it was a pleasure meeting you, and I appreciate your time very much and effort. The staff also very much enjoyed having you here. Many among our team said they have never seen cardiac signals looking so good, ever. The best case of the day was the final one — the cardiac signals had both jaw dropping improvement in resolution and noise level.

In regards to noise, which I define as baseline artifact — the noise level on the mapping computer was the lowest I have seen in 10 years and over thousands of cases. In fact, the noise level was below my measurement capabilities (defined as 0.01mV). Visually I would think it was approximately 0.001-0.003mV. Compared to a range of noise prior to this I would estimate at 0.05 to 0.25mV.

In regards to the equally important resolution of cardiac signals, which I define as observed voltage changes over time; on the mapping computer this also was the best that I have ever seen in my lab or any other lab in the world. This was extremely exciting to me. As we discussed at the beginning of the day, normally the resolution of the mapping system is far less than the recording system. With the Shunyata Products, the resolution was better by a nice margin then the recording system. Imagine that, signal amplification and processing through the computer was better than through our 75K signal amplifier!

In short, with the final step of placing the mapping computer on the Shunyata Research system, both resolution and noise were improved to a level that I have never seen, and that I didn’t know was even possible. This improvement can and will result in meaningful improvements in these procedures for our patients.

Daniel P. Melby, MD
Cardiac Electrophysiology
Medical Director, Electrophysiology Lab
Minneapolis Heart Institute


Bio: Dr. Daniel Melby
Director of the electrophysiology lab at the Minneapolis Heart Institute, Dr. Melby has special interest and experience performing complex catheter ablations for treatment of fast heart rhythms, particularly atrial fibrillation. He is a recognized expert, speaking nationally on the latest ablation techniques and technology, and has participated in many national research studies of new ablation technology.

The bolded part....there it is all you need to know about the purpose of cables....reduce noise and increase resolution. Used in Medicine,Audio and Aerospace. Thanks for posting Lloyd.....
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
I am going to be nice:

Before debating and testing any difference we should read ITU-R BS.1116 and then carry some tests to validate our methodology with positive tests.
So a test using BS1116 guidelines showing negative outcome between power cords would make you change your mind about them and think they don't make a difference?
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
319
565
BiggestLittleCity
This subject of cables and there effectiveness has a distinct level of bias involved, whether it is realised or not,or intended or not.
 

Whatmore

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2011
1,011
2
438
Melbourne, Australia
SHUNYATA POWER PRODUCTS TESTED IN MEDICAL APPLICATIONS
News
by TAS Staff | Dec 11th, 2015
Categories: AC power cords, Power filters
Shunyata Power Products Tested in Medical Applications
The following is a press release issued by Shunyata Research.

December 11, 2015 - Shunyata Research was invited for a rare opportunity to test its products’ effectiveness in one of the United States finest Electrophysiology labs, at the Minneapolis Heart Institute. Medical Director Dr. Daniel Melby was aware of Shunyata Research’s success in the recording and film industries and was hopeful there could be a parallel benefit in the medical field. Specifically, Dr. Melby wanted to test Shunyata Research products as a means of preventing electrical noise from impacting the ultra-sensitive electronics and monitoring systems used in the many heart procedures he performed daily. The products tested were comprised of a system of Shunyata Research power cords and several six outlet power conditioners.

In the past, the Electrophysiology labs across the US have evaluated a wide variety of filters and power conditioners without success. Dr. Melby tested Shunyata Research products during some of his heart procedures, termed “Ablation procedures”. Dr. Melby invited Shunyata’s Grant Samuelson into the operating room to witness the results, which required dressing in full surgical scrubs, mask and hat.

Dr. Melby performed three heart procedures, using an ascending number of Shunyata products. Each time there was a marked improvement in the system’s resolution. Dr. Melby recorded dramatic reductions in noise-levels as more Shunyata products were applied. Following, are Dr. Melby’s findings and observations based on the heart procedures he performed using Shunyata Research products. Shunyata Research products are now a permanent part of the Operating Room Systems at the Heart Institute and have been recommended to countless other Hospitals based on their dramatic success.


A group of Medical Technicians monitor data and imaging in Abbott Hospital’s Electrophysiology Lab while Dr. Daniel Melby performs a delicate Heart Ablation procedure.

From: Dr. Daniel P. Melby, Medical Director, Minneapolis Heart Institute

First, thank you very very much for your visit today, it was a pleasure meeting you, and I appreciate your time very much and effort. The staff also very much enjoyed having you here. Many among our team said they have never seen cardiac signals looking so good, ever. The best case of the day was the final one — the cardiac signals had both jaw dropping improvement in resolution and noise level.

In regards to noise, which I define as baseline artifact — the noise level on the mapping computer was the lowest I have seen in 10 years and over thousands of cases. In fact, the noise level was below my measurement capabilities (defined as 0.01mV). Visually I would think it was approximately 0.001-0.003mV. Compared to a range of noise prior to this I would estimate at 0.05 to 0.25mV.

In regards to the equally important resolution of cardiac signals, which I define as observed voltage changes over time; on the mapping computer this also was the best that I have ever seen in my lab or any other lab in the world. This was extremely exciting to me. As we discussed at the beginning of the day, normally the resolution of the mapping system is far less than the recording system. With the Shunyata Products, the resolution was better by a nice margin then the recording system. Imagine that, signal amplification and processing through the computer was better than through our 75K signal amplifier!

In short, with the final step of placing the mapping computer on the Shunyata Research system, both resolution and noise were improved to a level that I have never seen, and that I didn’t know was even possible. This improvement can and will result in meaningful improvements in these procedures for our patients.

Daniel P. Melby, MD
Cardiac Electrophysiology
Medical Director, Electrophysiology Lab
Minneapolis Heart Institute


Bio: Dr. Daniel Melby
Director of the electrophysiology lab at the Minneapolis Heart Institute, Dr. Melby has special interest and experience performing complex catheter ablations for treatment of fast heart rhythms, particularly atrial fibrillation. He is a recognized expert, speaking nationally on the latest ablation techniques and technology, and has participated in many national research studies of new ablation technology.

Are you quoting that because it was what made you change your mind away from thinking power cables make no difference ?
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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I don't buy any of that

It is not a question of buying - either it is technically correct or not. IMHO it is correct, I explained why - the gain of an amplifier is independent of mains voltage.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
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To be clear, whether or not you are correct is not relevant to this thread.

Curious, some one (Ack) presents new measured evidence suggesting that power cables change the gain of amplifiers and you find the subject is not relevant to this thread ... IMHO, if proved true it could change a lot of beliefs in this hobby.
 

Whatmore

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2011
1,011
2
438
Melbourne, Australia
Curious, some one (Ack) presents new measured evidence suggesting that power cables change the gain of amplifiers and you find the subject is not relevant to this thread ... IMHO, if proved true it could change a lot of beliefs in this hobby.

It is interesting for sure.
Perhaps you could start another thread to discuss it (it has the potential to derail this thread into arguments)
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,455
29
405
It is interesting for sure.
Perhaps you could start another thread to discuss it (it has the potential to derail this thread into arguments)

Not sure I follow you there but ...

Watching this from a distance ...
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,430
2,517
1,448
Are you quoting that because it was what made you change your mind away from thinking power cables make no difference ?

No...i quoted because this is the kind of thing that provides a body of evidence that supports with science and measurements some of things that i hear when i listen to cables or other audio equipment (but have no knowledge or measurements to support of my own). I have always used my own ears and thoughts to make my decisions, as i know that my knowledge of the science is neglgible.

I suppose if i were to look for 'proof'...these are the kinds of articles/methods that I think would be helpful to me in understanding more about the hows and whys of what i am hearing.
 

Whatmore

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2011
1,011
2
438
Melbourne, Australia
No...i quoted because this is the kind of thing that provides a body of evidence that supports with science and measurements some of things that i hear when i listen to cables or other audio equipment (but have no knowledge or measurements to support of my own). I have always used my own ears and thoughts to make my decisions, as i know that my knowledge of the science is neglgible.

I suppose if i were to look for 'proof'...these are the kinds of articles/methods that I think would be helpful to me in understanding more about the hows and whys of what i am hearing.

Understood.
So if I read correctly, you hold that cables do make a difference and these results (the one mentioned by ack) would back up that view.
My question is turning that exactly on its head. What would it take for you to change your opinion so that you felt that cables made no difference?
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,430
2,517
1,448
Understood.
So if I read correctly, you hold that cables do make a difference and these results (the one mentioned by ack) would back up that view.
My question is turning that exactly on its head. What would it take for you to change your opinion so that you felt that cables made no difference?

Fair question...for me, that is kinda like saying, what it would take for me to believe the world was flat. OK - that is an exaggeration!...but the point is i first learned about power cables without knowing anything about them...it was the ultimate blind test. I walked into my dealer's room with a series of equipment set up i knew and it took me 30 seconds to think it sounded way too good for the quality of equipment in the room...i immediately assumed it was an audiophile CD and switched it for Clapton Unplugged...still too good. I went straight out the dealer and he thought it was strange. I said NO WAY that system should sound so good and made him come into the demo room and explain to me everything in that room. Something was different...after a while of him insisting it was what it was...i asked him 'what the h-l is THAT in the corner? It was the Purist Audio Dominus power cable powering the system. I immediately asked him to take it out, whatever the heck it was...and everything about the system collapsed back to exactly where i thought it ought to have been...nice midfi. And as a result, for me, i have experienced that they do make a difference over stock...not as much of a difference in every instance...but enough that for me, it is a fact in my system.

I have no doubt we could do any number of tests with cables that show they make no difference...just as we have also got tests (like Minneapolis Heart Hospital) that shows they DO make a difference. At this stage, i believe through experience so i cannot now imagine thinking otherwise.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
Fair question...for me, that is kinda like saying, what it would take for me to believe the world was flat.
I don't think that is a good analogy because the number of people who think earth is flat is very small. Lay people and scientists are also all one one side of that equation.

With respect to cables that is not so (power or otherwise). Now the entire weight of scientists is against the notion that they make such differences. What's more, there are large number of audiophiles that believe the same.

On the other hand there are larger number of audiophiles who think cables do make a difference.

In that regard we are being asked whether there were tests of our understanding that would get us to agree with the other large group of people. I think it is a fair question.

Let me ask you this. Let's say I secretly asked your loved one to switch out your cable for another in a way that you could not tell visually and out of a dozen times this was done over period of days, you could not note the difference. When this was revealed to you at the end, would that change your opinion and make you consider switch sides?
 

twitch

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2010
602
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SE Pa
For me it's not about the 'potential' to make a difference rather it's about the pseudo science knuckleheads that believe one needs to spend thousands of dollars on 'wire' ! I firmly believe anybody that spends 5 figures on a PC should be institutionalized !
 

Whatmore

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2011
1,011
2
438
Melbourne, Australia
For me it's not about the 'potential' to make a difference rather it's about the pseudo science knuckleheads that believe one needs to spend thousands of dollars on 'wire' ! I firmly believe anybody that spends 5 figures on a PC should be institutionalized !

In the spirit of playing nicely, perhaps you could share what it would take for you to change your obviously very passionate viewpoint
 

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