Power cables: What would it take to change your view?

Whatmore · Feb 23, 2017

I was thinking about the endless debates about audio that go nowhere.
There are many but one that seems to polarise opinion more than others is the question of power cables.

My question is: you are likely to have a view on power cables, do they make a difference or not....

What would it take for you to change that view?

- For those who hold that all well designed cables sound the same, what evidence would you accept that would change your view. What would it take for you to say "yes I'm satisfied that there is a real difference, it's not a trick of perception"

Would someone passing a double-blind ABX test be enough? Would you need many people to pass? If so, how many? Or perhaps you've never tried swapping cables and a simple sighted test would suffice

- For those who say that cable differences are clearly audible, same question, what would it take to change your view? What would it take for you to say "it was all in my mind, an auditory illusion. There really is no difference"
if you shut your eyes whilst cables were being switched and suddenly the difference disappeared would that be enough? If not, what would be enough?

To be clear, this isn't about whether or not power cables make an audible difference. That debate has been done endlessly. It is about yourself and your own views and beliefs.

So be honest with yourself and share.

And keep it nice please.

SoundAndMotion · Feb 23, 2017

Whatmore said:
My question is: you are likely to have a view on power cables, do they make a difference or not....

What would it take for you to change that view?

For me, that's easy. But first:
- the terms in quotes require a thorough definition from me, not someone else. A complete answer would be perhaps too long for this post.
- failure to provide such "proof" does NOT prove me right.
- I'm certain that "proving" it to me will not convince all the others who share my current view.
- I'm not demanding anyone jump through my hoops. I'm just answering the question in the OP.

Answer: A single person must "pass with statistical significance" a "properly" designed and executed "blind" test.

microstrip · Feb 23, 2017

Whatmore said:
I was thinking about the endless debates about audio that go nowhere.
There are many but one that seems to polarise opinion more than others is the question of power cables.

My question is: you are likely to have a view on power cables, do they make a difference or not....

What would it take for you to change that view?

- For those who hold that all well designed cables sound the same, what evidence would you accept that would change your view. What would it take for you to say "yes I'm satisfied that there is a real difference, it's not a trick of perception"

Would someone passing a double-blind ABX test be enough? Would you need many people to pass? If so, how many? Or perhaps you've never tried swapping cables and a simple sighted test would suffice

- For those who say that cable differences are clearly audible, same question, what would it take to change your view? What would it take for you to say "it was all in my mind, an auditory illusion. There really is no difference"
if you shut your eyes whilst cables were being switched and suddenly the difference disappeared would that be enough? If not, what would be enough?

To be clear, this isn't about whether or not power cables make an audible difference. That debate has been done endlessly. It is about yourself and your own views and beliefs.

So be honest with yourself and share.

And keep it nice please.

I am going to be nice:

Before debating and testing any difference we should read ITU-R BS.1116 and then carry some tests to validate our methodology with positive tests.

SoundAndMotion · Feb 23, 2017

microstrip said:
I am going to be nice:

Before debating and testing any difference we should read ITU-R BS.1116 and then carry some tests to validate our methodology with positive tests.

I've read it a couple of times and have to point out that it is for evaluating preferences, not simple discrimination, it is designed to work with a reference to which to compare, although one can work around that, and without any citations requires very short switching times. This could be difficult with power cord testing, since I assume most who hear differences would not likely accept mechanical or solid state relays.

Are you saying you have to read BS.1116 before answering?

opus112 · Feb 23, 2017

I don't fall into either of your two camps, am I still allowed to chip in? I believe that power cables can make a difference but I've never heard one making a difference because I've never done the experiment of swapping one.

Whatmore · Feb 23, 2017

microstrip said:
I am going to be nice:

Before debating and testing any difference we should read ITU-R BS.1116 and then carry some tests to validate our methodology with positive tests.

We aren't debating.
I'm asking what it would take for you to change your view.
If for you, that has something to do with ITU-R BS.1116 then that's well and good. But no one is *required* to read anything before they can comment here

Whatmore · Feb 23, 2017

opus112 said:
I don't fall into either of your two camps, am I still allowed to chip in? I believe that power cables can make a difference but I've never heard one making a difference because I've never done the experiment of swapping one.

Yes of course

I was going to add that third category to my initial post but I didn't want it to be too long-winded

thedudeabides · Feb 23, 2017

Whatmore said:
To be clear, this isn't about whether or not power cables make an audible difference. That debate has been done endlessly. It is about yourself and your own views and beliefs.

And keep it nice please.

Good luck with that.

And yes, I've just done an extended listen / comparison with the Shunyata Research PC's. I'm all in with SR (4 total) based on the audition. The Alpha Digital will be done with the "fan" burn in (200 hours) tomorrow night. Looking forward to installing and listening.

microstrip · Feb 23, 2017

SoundAndMotion said:
I've read it a couple of times and have to point out that it is for evaluating preferences, not simple discrimination, it is designed to work with a reference to which to compare, although one can work around that, and without any citations requires very short switching times. This could be difficult with power cord testing, since I assume most who hear differences would not likely accept mechanical or solid state relays.

Are you saying you have to read BS.1116 before answering?

No, but as soon as you read it you understand how difficult it is to implement, and specially that the methodology must be validated with graded tests that include positive identification.

microstrip · Feb 23, 2017

Whatmore said:
We aren't debating.
I'm asking what it would take for you to change your view.
If for you, that has something to do with ITU-R BS.1116 then that's well and good. But no one is *required* to read anything before they can comment here

Surely, no one is required. But IMHO if we ignore the methodology and details then you can say goodbye to being nice in a short time ...

ack · Feb 23, 2017

Whatmore said:
- For those who say that cable differences are clearly audible, same question, what would it take to change your view? What would it take for you to say "it was all in my mind, an auditory illusion. There really is no difference"
if you shut your eyes whilst cables were being switched and suddenly the difference disappeared would that be enough? If not, what would be enough?

I'll play. I am one of those who have proven to oneself that they CAN make a difference, depending on CONTEXT. In other words, in some cases they will, in others they may not. So I am in fact in both camps, and if you will, I believe just about all claims, because context is key: which cables are we talking about and in what components and what else is in the system. But in the cases that they do, as in my experiments, I have actually measured db output with one vs another using bass warble tones, and the difference was about 1dB in loudness. This was done using my amps and the top MIT power cord (bad) vs my Shunyata (good). Plugged into other components, there was no detectable difference, but context again is important, because noise filtering already in place elsewhere may be rendering any differences inaudible and irrelevant...

microstrip · Feb 23, 2017

ack said:
I'll play. I am one of those who have proven to oneself that they CAN make a difference, depending on CONTEXT. In other words, in some cases they will, in others they may not. So I am in fact in both camps, and if you will, I believe just about all claims, because context is key: which cables are we talking about and in what components and what else is in the system. But in the cases that they do, as in my experiments, I have actually measured db output with one vs another using bass warble tones, and the difference was about 1dB in loudness. This was done using my amps and the top MIT power cord (bad) vs my Shunyata (good). Plugged into other components, there was no detectable difference, but context again is important, because noise filtering already in place elsewhere may be rendering any differences inaudible and irrelevant...

Are you saying you measured 1dB differences in bass output when using different power cables? What was the amplifier being powered by these cables?

ack · Feb 23, 2017

microstrip said:
Are you saying you measured 1dB differences in bass output when using different power cables?

Correct; quite audible too. Not sure what your second question is...

Whatmore · Feb 23, 2017

microstrip said:
Surely, no one is required. But IMHO if we ignore the methodology and details then you can say goodbye to being nice in a short time ...

With respect, I feel you have not understood the question.
I'm asking anyone who cares to respond what it would take to change their own opinion. No one has to prove anything to anyone else. There is no need for others to agree on methodology.

Bearing that in mind, perhaps you'd care to share what it would take for you ?

Whatmore · Feb 23, 2017

ack said:
Correct; quite audible too. Not sure what your second question is...

I think there was a typo. I think he was asking "what was the amplifier"

JackD201 · Feb 23, 2017

A long time ago, dang that makes me feel old, I didn't think power cords made a difference. That is until one time I mistakenly took a cable from the bin and used it on my amp. The amp would just blink then shut down. I wasn't even conscious that it was the PC at fault and I ran around in circles until I figured that it must be because that was the only thing changed. Upon inspection, I saw I had plugged in a skinny that probably came with an old computer monitor. I switched it with a generic fatty and lo and behold, problem solved. Fast forward and I'm setting up my first dedicated room. I bought some cool looking PCs and I couldn't tell the difference from the stock giveaways. No problem. They looked cool. Fast forward some more and I tried another set of PCs, still couldn't hear the difference. Acoustic treatments go up and for kicks I try again. Hmmmm. I think I hear something. Dealer lends me some K-S Emotion PCs. Okay, undeniable now. Wholesale change in character, fortunately to my liking. Mind changed. Learned early that current flow matters, the difference being working, not working. It can't be any more extreme than that. Learned later that theres a lot of gray area between working and not working.

ack · Feb 23, 2017

Whatmore said:
I think there was a typo. I think he was asking "what was the amplifier"

Oh, my Spectral DMA-400RS amps

ack · Feb 23, 2017

JackD201 said:
Learned early that current flow matters, the difference being working, not working. It can't be any more extreme than that. Learned later that theres a lot of gray area between working and not working.

Exactly, impulse current delivery matters, which is what I was also effectively measuring with my amps. In your case, it sounds like your amps were drawing a lot of in-rush current at power-on, which the smaller cable could not deliver, and they were shutting down.

microstrip · Feb 23, 2017

ack said:
Exactly, impulse current delivery matters, which is what I was also effectively measuring with my amps. In your case, it sounds like your amps were drawing a lot of in-rush current at power-on, which the smaller cable could not deliver, and they were shutting down.

The problem is that when using bass frequency signals for the measurement you are not dealing with in-rush current and your explanation does not seem acceptable. Amplifier gain does not depend on mains voltage, unless you are clipping the amplifier and there is high distortion. Impulse current can affect subjective sound, but not the objective measurements of amplitude. IMHO we must look more carefully for the situation in order to find an acceptable explanation.

Jack's case is very different. The amplifier was protecting it self for under-voltage during the extremely violent switch on transient, when capacitors must be charged from zero, not on the periodic mains charging cycle.

As far as I have read no one has supplied a case of measuring audio signals that could be correlated with decent power cables. Ralph Karsten reported a case with an high power consumption OTL in a no or low feedback design, that could be explained easily by the high resistance of the cable.

RogerD · Feb 23, 2017

It has to be a pretty poorly designed PC not to be audible in some fashion. All cables effect sound in some respect,either in being less than or more than neutral. Cables are designed to be a conduit for the audio signal. The design of the shield and the way that shield is terminated to ground greatly effects what we hear. PC's sound different because they reduce magnetic interference by returning noise back to ground. Some return more noise or less...pretty simple.

Power cables: What would it take to change your view?

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