dipping my toe into the ddk flow.....

hvbias

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2012
578
38
940
New England area
After a long hiatus from WBF it was really nice to read this thread and Steve's. As others have said in this thread (or Steve's) I'd also like to extend a thanks to David for his very generous advice in emails. If David is so kind I can only imagine that this is the type of experience/adventure that would be right up my ally, valuing many (or all) of the things that David wrote about. I too am on my way to the horn/SET land, though a different approach from David's.
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
After a long hiatus from WBF it was really nice to read this thread and Steve's. As others have said in this thread (or Steve's) I'd also like to extend a thanks to David for his very generous advice in emails. If David is so kind I can only imagine that this is the type of experience/adventure that would be right up my ally, valuing many (or all) of the things that David wrote about. I too am on my way to the horn/SET land, though a different approach from David's.

Hello hvbias,
My only comment is not to dismiss vintage outright in favor of the modern, horn speakers haven't come a long way long other technologies (though also debatable!) if anything they've regressed. Enjoy the journey!

david
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,443
13,472
2,710
London
Hello hvbias,
My only comment is not to dismiss vintage outright in favor of the modern, horn speakers haven't come a long way long other technologies (though also debatable!) if anything they've regressed. Enjoy the journey!

david

Western electric best room in Munich today, made everything else sound broken. Still some more rooms to go though, but the big viva masterhorn or whatever, tune audio at 220k lol, and others left a lot to be desired. Second best room was audio exklusiv stats, think these are much better than Logan and quads at lower price, recommended originally by the late and great Mr acoustat. After that, even if I am forced to rank it will be tough. In a rant mood right now. Better to log off. Big Goebbel have promise, if made to sound a bit more natural in proper setting they can fit in Mike's style room I think
 

Jazzhead

VIP/Donor
Aug 26, 2012
1,466
108
985
Western electric best room in Munich today, made everything else sound broken. Still some more rooms to go though, but the big viva masterhorn or whatever, tune audio at 220k lol, and others left a lot to be desired. Second best room was audio exklusiv stats, think these are much better than Logan and quads at lower price, recommended originally by the late and great Mr acoustat. After that, even if I am forced to rank it will be tough. In a rant mood right now. Better to log off. Big Goebbel have promise, if made to sound a bit more natural in proper setting they can fit in Mike's style room I think

Western Electric were natural with no emphasis on any frequency band . Great scale and a strong low end with good control . Not the final word in refinement , there exists a coarseness in certain recordings . Not particularly strong at imaging , which may the case at a live concert .
 

hvbias

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2012
578
38
940
New England area
Hello hvbias,
My only comment is not to dismiss vintage outright in favor of the modern, horn speakers haven't come a long way long other technologies (though also debatable!) if anything they've regressed. Enjoy the journey!

david

Thank you, I'm looking forward to it!

I was able to audition a similar system that I am building towards. Even with the solid state amplifiers the owner was using the immediacy, speed resolution, and extreme subtlest timbral differences/dynamics were readily apparent; up until that point I had never heard all those qualities in a single system. I am going a custom route using active amplification, so two separate SET amps for midbass horn and the modified conical/tractrix midrange/treble constant directivity horn up top. I would like to do pure DHT signal chain through out... but with two amplifiers that starts to turn into a total of 8 chassis.

All this coming from someone that normally does not like the audiophile style horn systems with narrow bandwidth round horns stacked on top of each other that sound discontinuous. The last time I posted to WBF I think I only had the Quad ESL63, I've now been living with ESL57 for a few years and it's made me even more selective of speaker colorations.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
We didn't have any time to discuss audio and sound with Mike, it was really a quick tasting menu of 4 tt setup more than anything else so here's some addition to Mike's impressions.

The 3 main TT's are setup to convey and communicate the music uniquely in their own tongue, think of them as different conductors and orchestras interpreting the same music. Yes the American Sound performs at an extremely high level but going through them the way we did can give one good, better, best impression very quickly but with time and a chance to go back to each tt/arm/cartridge/phono combination they'll reveal more of their uniqueness. This richness of variety that one can have with vinyl playback is the main reason that I haven't pursued R2R, and then there's the very limited and high priced software.

We only sampled a little classical, jazz and vocal selection (see below) and not everything on each tt. The system's FR is near 20hz - 20khz and everything we listened to is very much within that range so there's nothing missing in the sound. There's an ocean of difference between the wholesome presentation of an all tube SET based system vs the somewhat parsed (IMO!) way of solid state electronics giving the impression of extra detail, takes time to adjust from one to another. Bass presentation is also part of our individual philosophy and understanding of reality, personally I find SETs can deliver the most natural bass among different topologies and Lamms deliver it all, even my subs are driven by SETs for best results. Whatever one's tastes I doubt anyone would argue the differences in presentation between tubes and ss. Then there's the personal approach and relationship to enhanced bass in setup as it's own entity or not. Many enjoy that extra overhang, octave, extension or whatever you call it when there's a bass note which admittedly can be very impressive in the context of a system and might enhance one's sense of reality but I find that impression a distraction and diversion from the music and something I'm never impressed by individually at a live venue. I have eliminated that impressive element from my system to keep the whole experience natural and real. This will very much affect one's perception of system's FR.

Volume was also mentioned in a couple of threads, I see volume and presence as part of the real and natural experience so when the system is capable I prefer listening at close to live levels during more intense listening sessions. Of course a lot of listening is also done at lower and low levels...

Music we played;

Classical
View attachment 31173

Vocal
View attachment 31174

Jazz
View attachment 31175

david

David, I am revisiting this interesting thread. Your post is a wonderful expression of your priorities in terms of a system reproducing the music and how you want to experience it. It is one approach. There are others also valid. I enjoy reading clearly articulated points of view.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
Thank you, thats giving some great insight Mike... I've not experienced a system that has so comprehensively moved beyond its usual typology constraints and limitations so that it actually can be closer to being all things. You can always tell by the comments of your visitors that may just be the case and that is just awesome. I wonder if use of music as an essential benchmark always leads us to a shared place if we travel far enough.

I thought Steve's comment about David's system being all about the midrange was also really interesting as well as it mirrors the Animas trait of also being anchored in the mid point and being fundamentally midcentric which is maybe about it being essentially such a directed point of focus in the mid range... a bit like dropping a pebble in the water and having the greatest definition at its centre with the attention diffusing ever so slightly but equally as the pattern moves out to the extremes which kind of anchors you in the calm and stillness of its centre.

I also remember an earlier comment by Ked about horns breathing outwards effortlessly which also made a lot of sense to me in terms of this seamless continuity of action.

Graham,
This is a very interesting post. I read Steve’s comment about the mid range and my experience was a little bit different the two times I went to visit David and to hear his various systems. To me, it was not about the mid range. It was about the whole range of frequencies presented in a way that did not bring attention to any of them. The key with David’s systems is that the high and low frequencies are not enhanced or spotlit like some other systems I have heard, including my former ones. One of the characteristics of natural sound is balance, and David seems to prioritize this when assembling his systems.

The way one perceives this reflects the reference on which the comment is made. When I listen to live music, of any genre except for rap or electronica, there is a lack of emphasis on frequencies. In this sense, David’s main system and all of his systems represent what I hear when listening to live music in terms of frequency balance.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: the sound of Tao

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
3,620
4,838
940
David, I am revisiting this interesting thread. Your post is a wonderful expression of your priorities in terms of a system reproducing the music and how you want to experience it. It is one approach. There are others also valid. I enjoy reading clearly articulated points of view.
Thanks for reviving this thread Peter, great to get these perspectives of David’s system again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterA

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
3,620
4,838
940
Graham,
This is a very interesting post. I read Steve’s comment about the mid range and my experience was a little bit different the two times I went to visit David and to hear his various systems. To me, it was not about the mid range. It was about the whole range of frequencies presented in a way that did not bring attention to any of them. The key with David’s systems is that the high and low frequencies are not enhanced or spotlit like some other systems I have heard. One of the characteristics of natural sound is balance, and David seems to prioritize this when assembling his systems.

The way one perceives this reflects the reference on which the comment is made. When I listen to live music, of any genre except for rap or electronica, there is a lack of emphasis on frequencies. In this sense, David’s main system and all of his systems represent what I hear when listening to live music in terms of frequency balance.
It’s good to revisit these posts for me as I realise what I wrote really doesn’t capture what I was thinking here. I definitely misrepresented the idea I was trying to get across and probably because I simply didn’t fully understand it myself.

But looking at this again the way of viewing it isn’t about a lack of whole balance but more how with good horns my perception seems more seated and centred at the core of the sound and in the music rather than as perceiving it as a field of sounds with my attention darting around the soundfield following individual sensations. An equivalency might be if it was a landscape space I’m seated in the middle and experiencing the whole thing rather than being at the entry and looking around.

Now that I have a two way with a simple first order with the horn covering everything from 600hz up that sense of singularity and coherence and being anchored at the centre of the music core is even more grounded in the experience.

I’d also throw in that the longer I live with this kind of very whole very centred presentation the more it reinforces and informs expectation in my perceptual focus and the more it anchors where my perception best rests when listening and this better reflects the way I listen to live music. Other ways of listening can be more immediately sensational but also more disparate and seem less about seating in deep concentration within the music.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterA

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
to me it was definitely about the midrange. I’ve never heard anything as good. The bottom end was good but needed supplement by a sub. I’m referring primarily to the Bionors. You are likely talking about the entire system. I was referring to the Bionors
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterA

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
to me it was definitely about the midrange. I’ve never heard anything as good. The bottom end was good but needed supplement by a sub. I’m referring primarily to the Bionors. You are likely talking about the entire system. I was referring to the Bionors

I never heard the system without the subs. Sorry, I thought you were referring to the whole package and I presume Mike was referring to the subs being on also. But still, the high frequencies were also in complete balance not enhanced and they didn’t seem rolled off either.

The mid range was indeed glorious, but I never thought of the mid range as a separate entity from the rest of the experience
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: awsmone and Jon

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2014
1,616
513
435
Canberra Australia
You mean:- in complete balance based on your personal auditory and perceptual preferences
‘glorious based on your own opinion and how you perceive based on historical personal memory
 

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2014
1,616
513
435
Canberra Australia
This is a great thread -- thanks for bringing it back up.
This is an enjoyable thread based on your own personal opinion , it’s is not objectivably great , as there is no agreed scale for that
 
  • Haha
Reactions: PeterA

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2014
1,616
513
435
Canberra Australia
to me it was definitely about the midrange. I’ve never heard anything as good. The bottom end was good but needed supplement by a sub. I’m referring primarily to the Bionors. You are likely talking about the entire system. I was referring to the Bionors
that sense of singularity and coherence
Can you define what you mean by singularity, which to me is a ‘’black hole “,
and “coherence“ are you talking time alignment or something else ?
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
You mean:- in complete balance based on your personal auditory and perceptual preferences
‘glorious based on your own opinion and how you perceive based on historical personal memory

Awsmone, you forgot the silly emoji. Not based on my opinion, it is my opinion based on my own perception of my lifelong experiences living in this world, nothing to do with my preferences. It is an observation. Steve simply observed it differently and now I see he was talking about the Bionors only without the subs, but even then, to me it was in complete balance from 50 Hz on up, including the high frequencies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wil

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
3,620
4,838
940
Can you define what you mean by singularity, which to me is a ‘’black hole “,
and “coherence“ are you talking time alignment or something else ?
Coherence in that the presentation is of a piece from top to bottom and singularity more as a state of connectedness to the music
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterA

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Awsmone, you forgot the silly emoji. Not based on my opinion, it is my opinion based on my own perception of my lifelong experiences living in this world, nothing to do with my preferences. It is an observation. Steve simply observed it differently and now I see he was talking about the Bionors only without the subs, but even then, to me it was in complete balance from 50 Hz on up, including the high frequencies.
I feel I need to further clarify. Listening to David's system. it was the mid range that. mesmerized me.I totally agree about the top end being in balance. It's just for my ears most of music is mid range and David's system was the best Ive ever heard. Top end indeed was in complete balance. Bottom end with Bionors only was sightly anemic , requiring the use of subs, Having said that they were well integrated with the Bionors so no big deal . In fact David only told me he was using subs when we went behind the speakers and I saw a separate Lamm amp driving a very large sub. In summary I am not making any point except to say the midrange was simply the best I have ever heard in a system. Lamm, BTW is known for how good his midrange sound is and I felt the overall benefit was magnified by a speaker that is 112 db efficient (or was it 115 db efficient?). David played a Chesky recording of Rebecca Pidgeon and I swore that was a real as anything I ever heard. When she opened her mouth to sing it was truly a revelation as I could hear hear her tongue touching the top of her palate as well as the sound of her lips touching one another. I could hear her swallowing and breathing during the song. She was in the room. That was the point I was trying to make as for me I feel most of the sound in recordings dwells in the midrange.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterA

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,346
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
I am not re-posting anybody's particular post here because I am not seeking to criticize a particular comment.

I have no dog in this hunt.

It seems to me that people are fencing, once again, about issues which would be better understood and, maybe, reconciled, if a little bit of analytical rigor were applied.

A lifetime of experience listening to music in concert halls used to conclude that a particular audio system and room has the same perceived sonic balance observed in the concert hall is a subjective opinion. The longevity of a lifetime of experience does not make the observation any less subjective.

An audio engineer could conduct a frequency sweep and frequency response analysis of the acoustics of a concert hall. That same engineer could conduct a frequency sweep and frequency response analysis of the particular audio system and room in question. The measured frequency response of the concert hall and the measured frequency response of the audio system and room are objective facts. (I am assuming industry-accepted test equipment, measuring techniques and reporting results.)

Finally, a definitional complication arises regarding the term "balance." Balance does not necessarily mean ruler-flat frequency response. Balance is itself a subjective term which could mean the listener's preferred subjective balance of focusing on midrange to the exclusion of flat frequency response at the top end or the lower end of the frequency range. Proper sonic balance, to a different audiophile, could mean emphasis of the low frequencies. In other words, balance, without a definition, could mean the emphasis or the de-emphasis of certain frequency ranges each of us merely subjectively prefers.

Perhaps people may care to restate their thoughts in view of this attempt at disentanglement and illumination.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing