Should I stay, or should I go?

spiritofmusic · Feb 13, 2017

Opinions from all on this one, pro analog and pro digital, and all on the fence
My new room set up, and it's a sheer delight, neutral and a tad damped, but a real microscope for my gear as never before
I'm a died in the wool vinylphile, collecting 2k lps since the late 70s, and on balance prefer Lp listening to digital, w the heft, energy, tone and tonal discrimination on Lp impossible to replicate on digital
BUT I completely love what top end digital is great at as well, ie consistency, transparency, noise flr etc
And in my two decades of upgrading, there have been a handful of occasions where I preferred listening to CDs over lps
And now w the scrutiny of my new room, my tt rig just struggling a little to match the ease of my cdp
And in the last 6 months, for the first time I've heard digital that has come of age and matched the promise the marketeers made back in 1983, w the SGM server sounding majestic upscaling Tidal to 512 via HQP

So preamble over, now the point of this thread
I may very well consider a major tt/arm upgrade to give me the transparency and delicacy my current analog is marginally missing
But the same budget will afford me the SGM w a top dac
I'm very much on the fence, but for the first time in my upgrading history am considering putting digital ahead of vinyl
And then going a radical step further, actively avoiding all vinyl listening for 2-3 years, immersing myself in top end digital, and then returning to Lp listening at a later date
I am really really tempted to do this, am curious to see if total immersion to digital will finally convince me it's the path I really want to go down
Of course I had total analog immersion for my whole life up until 1990 when I bought my first cd

bonzo75 · Feb 13, 2017

If your TT is struggling, you need to go out an listen to some TT setups. With your TT struggling, going out and listening to digital will convince you digital is better.

Mike Lavigne · Feb 13, 2017

if, right now, you can only go 'all-in' on one or the other, then I would choose digital.

chasing vinyl bliss can get crazy expensive, whereas digital is quite a bit more sane (with multiple ways to go that play to various tastes) and the delivery processes now are wonderful.

bonzo75 · Feb 13, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
if, right now, you can only go 'all-in' on one or the other, then I would choose digital.

chasing vinyl bliss can get crazy expensive, whereas digital is quite a bit more sane (with multiple ways to go that play to various tastes) and the delivery processes now are wonderful.

I guess this also depends on the objective. He already has records, cleaner, accessories, and can set up VTA, SRA, etc. So it is if he wants to sit and stream or if he wants to maximize his realism. He is not a newbie getting into vinyl

spiritofmusic · Feb 13, 2017

Ked, my tt is not struggling as such
As it is, it kicks serious arse re bass extension, tone and exuberance
But my digital is in many ways just as compelling to listen to
And my ongoing SGM experience at Blue58's is proving saluatory for me
I've been listening to vinyl way longer than you, to a broad range of systems, and there are shortcomings in analog no matter how well set up that are highlighted by excellent digital
Now, excellent digital is few and far btwn, w excellent analog much thicker on the ground
I'd rather give up listening to music if I had to have the recent top CEC/Kondo and Metronome digital rigs I was subjected to
But my current Eera cdp and now even more so the SGM really talk to me, and despite my addiction to the tone density and energy of analog at its best, I really am considering an emotional divorce

Rodney Gold · Feb 13, 2017

Give them equal respect and you have the best of both worlds
A 2 year celibacy might be beyond endurance ...

bonzo75 · Feb 13, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Ked, my tt is not struggling as such
As it is, it kicks serious arse re bass extension, tone and exuberance
But my digital is in many ways just as compelling to listen to
And my ongoing SGM experience at Blue58's is proving saluatory for me
I've been listening to vinyl way longer than you, to a broad range of systems, and there are shortcomings in analog no matter how well set up that are highlighted by excellent digital
Now, excellent digital is few and far btwn, w excellent analog much thicker on the ground
I'd rather give up listening to music if I had to have the recent top CEC/Kondo and Metronome digital rigs I was subjected to
But my current Eera cdp and now even more so the SGM really talk to me, and despite my addiction to the tone density and energy of analog at its best, I really am considering an emotional divorce

Well, if you are convinced your analog is good and yet doesn't match up, then go digital. Digital will never compare to analog, but for that you need to stop praising your own analog. Listening to analog longer makes no difference. No one has denied there are shortcomings in analog. That does not make it less than digital. If you want to go digital, have Rhapsody's attitude, what he said in the other post - occasionally he switches over and realizes that his Analog and Tape sounds better, but he goes back to listening to digital for extended time. He is not convincing himself that his digital has better sonics to tape or analog.

Kingsrule · Feb 13, 2017

I with ML on this one

If u are a gear head keep the TT and all that comes with it

But if u are into the music first, top line digital with all the accessibility to your music is a no brainer

bonzo75 · Feb 13, 2017

Kingsrule said:
I with ML on this one

If u are a gear head keep the TT and all that comes with it

But if u are into the music first, top line digital with all the accessibility to your music is a no brainer

Most people on this forum are gearheads. Are you saying the trial and error of cables, filters, adding upsamplers and clocks to your Vivaldi stack is required for non-gear heads who are into music?

RogerD · Feb 13, 2017

For me it's like my digital is so good,but yes my tape is better,but for everyday listening I'm not driven to tape only. I can get my analog fix when I play a analog CD or I want to hear a piece I only have on tape. Bottom line is I like Digital because of the convenience,vast catalog,ease of use,and the sound quality at least in my system has closed the gap enough to sound at sometimes amazing. YMMV

853guy · Feb 13, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Opinions from all on this one, pro analog and pro digital, and all on the fence
My new room set up, and it's a sheer delight, neutral and a tad damped, but a real microscope for my gear as never before
I'm a died in the wool vinylphile, collecting 2k lps since the late 70s, and on balance prefer Lp listening to digital, w the heft, energy, tone and tonal discrimination on Lp impossible to replicate on digital
BUT I completely love what top end digital is great at as well, ie consistency, transparency, noise flr etc
And in my two decades of upgrading, there have been a handful of occasions where I preferred listening to CDs over lps
And now w the scrutiny of my new room, my tt rig just struggling a little to match the ease of my cdp
And in the last 6 months, for the first time I've heard digital that has come of age and matched the promise the marketeers made back in 1983, w the SGM server sounding majestic upscaling Tidal to 512 via HQP

So preamble over, now the point of this thread
I may very well consider a major tt/arm upgrade to give me the transparency and delicacy my current analog is marginally missing
But the same budget will afford me the SGM w a top dac
I'm very much on the fence, but for the first time in my upgrading history am considering putting digital ahead of vinyl
And then going a radical step further, actively avoiding all vinyl listening for 2-3 years, immersing myself in top end digital, and then returning to Lp listening at a later date
I am really really tempted to do this, am curious to see if total immersion to digital will finally convince me it's the path I really want to go down
Of course I had total analog immersion for my whole life up until 1990 when I bought my first cd

Hey Spirit,

I think I understand where you’re coming from.

If it was me, I’d approach it with the following perspective(s):

First, I’d try and ascertain whether the shortcomings of my analogue rig were fundamentally able to be overcome or simply ameliorated/shifted. Because of the massive interdependence of drive mechanism/plinth/platter/arm/cart, it’d be worth asking whether further expenditure/investment would lift an individual aspect of replay to a higher level, or lift the entire aspect of replay to a higher level. As I’m sure you know, a cart may somewhat ameliorate a deficiency in an arm, but can never overcome it. An arm may ameliorate a deficiency with a plinth/platter interface, but never overcome it. I guess the question for you is, is it the baby or is it the bathwater? An “upgrade” of an individual component will have a lesser effect than an “upgrade” of an entire rig, so it would be essential for me to understand whether the deficiencies were independent of one another requiring a single upgrade (potentially less likely due to the interdependence of the mechanism), or whether the current deficiencies were systemic and inter-dependent and I needed to seek out a new turntable altogether.

Secondly, I’d try and ascertain whether whether I was seeking a qualitative improvement, or a quantitative improvement. If the former, I’d look at going all in for a vinyl upgrade, knowing that I’d access a higher level of enjoyment from the music I already had - I'd have a primary medium offering the highest relative level of performance with lesser musical variety, with a secondary medium offering a lower level of engagement from maximal musical variety. If the latter, I’d look at going all in for the digital upgrade, and taking advantage of the fact that I’d be able to explore and discover more music digitally without making my (non-upgraded) vinyl rig redundant - I'd have two mediums of comparable performance but know there was still more performance to be gained.

Keep us posted.

Kingsrule · Feb 13, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Most people on this forum are gearheads. Are you saying the trial and error of cables, filters, adding upsamplers and clocks to your Vivaldi stack is required for non-gear heads who are into music?

Not at all.

What I'm saying is that VTA, tracking force, cartridge variations, preamps, loading, TT isolation etc. is a MUCH bigger challenge than digital. Great digital is pretty much buy and turn on.

bonzo75 · Feb 13, 2017

Kingsrule said:
Not at all.

What I'm saying is that VTA, tracking force, cartridge variations, preamps, loading, TT isolation etc. is a MUCH bigger challenge than digital. Great digital is pretty much buy and turn on.

Yes but that depends on what his objective is. If he wants to just sit and stream or maximize SQ. Knowing him, it's the latter, though he probably thinks he is in the former.

wisnon · Feb 13, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Opinions from all on this one, pro analog and pro digital, and all on the fence

So preamble over, now the point of this thread
I may very well consider a major tt/arm upgrade to give me the transparency and delicacy my current analog is marginally missing
But the same budget will afford me the SGM w a top dac
I'm very much on the fence, but for the first time in my upgrading history am considering putting digital ahead of vinyl
And then going a radical step further, actively avoiding all vinyl listening for 2-3 years, immersing myself in top end digital, and then returning to Lp listening at a later date
I am really really tempted to do this, am curious to see if total immersion to digital will finally convince me it's the path I really want to go down
Of course I had total analog immersion for my whole life up until 1990 when I bought my first cd

Go digital and use BOTH!
Its getting harder for you to handle the rigours of vinyl anyway and your rig is pretty good now by your telling. Its more fun to go down a new rabbit hole and with Tidal, you dont need to spend on building up anew physical collection.

Only caveat is that you may prefer high rate DSD upsampling to DXD on the Formula, so do your own personal due diligence. Also, I am in the process of getting a PC that can upsample to DSD512 and will then be able to see if RBCD upsampled to DSD512 can beat vinyl rips/Tape Transfer to DSD128 played back natively.

Kingsrule · Feb 13, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Yes but that depends on what his objective is. If he wants to just sit and stream or maximize SQ. Knowing him, it's the latter, though he probably thinks he is in the former.

Outstanding digital is another issue. But FAR easier and much less$$ to tweek digital than analogue. And that doesn't even include accessibility to your music which is not even a discussion vs. analogue.

And it can still keep us gear heads satiated....

sujay · Feb 13, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Yes but that depends on what his objective is. If he wants to just sit and stream or maximize SQ. Knowing him, it's the latter, though he probably thinks he is in the former.

While I am a relative newcomer and a novice when it comes to vinyl, ime, the joys of listening to well recorded pressings (far) exceeds that of the same music on digital, the convenience of digital, amongst other benefits, notwithstanding. I feel Vinyl is emotionally more involving, lush and harmonically superior although not as accurate as digital and despite the higher relatively noise level in vinyl, etc, etc.....

So while my experience with vinyl is way shorter than most others in this forum who have been into this for decades, I, for one, am not giving up vinyl anytime soon! A vinyl session for me lasts way longer than digital despite having to get up and change sides....

Sujay

wisnon · Feb 13, 2017

sujay said:
While I am a relative newcomer and a novice when it comes to vinyl, ime, the joys of listening to well recorded pressings (far) exceeds that of the same music on digital, the convenience of digital, amongst other benefits, notwithstanding. I feel Vinyl is emotionally more involving, lush and harmonically superior although not as accurate as digital and despite the higher relatively noise level in vinyl, etc, etc.....

So while my experience with vinyl is way shorter than most others in this forum who have been into this for decades, I, for one, am not giving up vinyl anytime soon! A vinyl session for me lasts way longer than digital despite having to get up and change sides....

Sujay

It's AND not OR.

bonzo75 · Feb 13, 2017

Kingsrule said:
Outstanding digital is another issue. But FAR easier and much less$$ to tweek digital than analogue. And that doesn't even include accessibility to your music which is not even a discussion vs. analogue.

And it can still keep us gear heads satiated....

I agree with your last statement. Tube rolling Lampi keeps my gear head satiated. And actually I don't need analog until I go out and hear it. But I will jump in for my top 100 records at some point. I don't think people like Steve and Ron play with their VTA/SRA set ups, they can correct me, but I think they just spin. One can get someone to set it up for them, I am sure I will do that.

sujay · Feb 13, 2017

wisnon said:
It's AND not OR.

Yes, indeed! (-:

KeithR · Feb 13, 2017

an elite TT will last much longer than the digital alternative and still likely sound better. to me there isn't much of a choice unless you didn't have records/TT/like analog to begin with. maybe get a brinkmann (or even the new technics with a better arm) since you like DD TTs and call it a day.

also, as bonzo said - your gear line says you aren't a set and forget kind of audiophile, so there's that.

either way you decide, not listening to analog for 2-3 years seems silly.

Should I stay, or should I go?

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