ICEpower amps

muralman1

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Jul 7, 2010
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Hi Muralman,

Which of Henry's amps do you use? The specs for the S and SA are identical and I was wondering what the extra $2,000 gets you with the SA. Different Ice modules perhaps one of the differences?

I have to apologize here. I had not visited the H2O site for years. Things have changed. To answer your question, the M250S actually has a different ICE module, the 500 ASP (having an integral power supply). The M250SA is what I have, only with some new additions, like ribbon cabling. It's module is the 500A. The price differential is due to the large external power supply in the M250SA.

The website leaves a lot of questions unanswered.
 

Orb

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I built prototypes with a number of different ICE modules and also UcD modules, and ended up using the UcD400 for various reasons. Since this forum is about ICEpower amps, may be it might be appropriate to have a discussion in a general forum on the various Class D modules available - and there are quite a number now.

Gary as you build Class D amps, will you at some point try out the Zetex modules?
New design that is found in the Nad digital Class D amp.

Cheers
Orb
 

garylkoh

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Gary as you build Class D amps, will you at some point try out the Zetex modules?
New design that is found in the Nad digital Class D amp.

Cheers
Orb

I don't think that the Zetex is a complete module - it's a bunch of chips that can be put together to design a Class D amp. When I get my shipment off to Las Vegas for CES, I'll discuss the different modules I've used.... but right now, I'm swamped.

Cheers
Gary
 

Orb

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Gary,
did you take a look at the link I provided in earlier post?
Seems to me multiple modules but does provide a Class D amp, along also with Dac and pre (for digital Class D).
However I appreciate the design may be done that the builder integrates this with their own power supply and output filter, think I mentioned the DDFA is an OEM order type product.
Will look a bit more.
Anyway couple of interesting discussions at DIYAudio - got to love it when engineers argue there lol (2nd link).
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/132510-fully-digital-amplifier-3.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/117627-zetex-ddfa.html

Thanks
Orb
 
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garylkoh

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Gary,
did you take a look at the link I provided in earlier post?
Seems to me multiple modules but does provide a Class D amp, along also with Dac and pre (for digital Class D).
However I appreciate the design may be done that the builder integrates this with their own power supply and output filter, think I mentioned the DDFA is an OEM order type product.
Will look a bit more.
Anyway couple of interesting discussions at DIYAudio - got to love it when engineers argue there lol (2nd link).
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/132510-fully-digital-amplifier-3.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/117627-zetex-ddfa.html

Thanks
Orb

Hi Orb,

Thanks for the links. Yes, I did have a look at the website and the discussion. They provide chip-level components, and then you'll have to build up your own amp using their parts, and more besides. I'm not an amplifier manufacturer, and hence my focus on the complete modules.

Cheers
Gary
 

garylkoh

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Go ahead Gary. I can always rename the thread if needed. I would love to know the differences :).

OK.... you asked for it.... this is a long post.

I think a bit of a background first - about 5 years ago, I was looking for a replacement Class D amplifier module for the servo-bass section of my speakers. We've been using Class D modules since 1991 because of high-power with high-efficiency (low heat) and very high damping: all necessary because of the brute-force nature of servo-controlled bass, and the fact that the amplifier would be built into a loudspeaker.

With impending ROHS, and stricter CE requirements, the module we used needed replacement. We tried making the ICEpower 500A modules work - primarily because they were the "high-end" flavor of the day. The ICE was a drop-in (almost) replacement for our existing Class D module - so my team happily proceeded along those lines.

Then, my designer-in-chief retired, and in the next three months, I learned far, far more about the craziness in this "audiophile" world than I ever wanted to or ever imagined.

The first thing that caught my eye was this:

Phase-Amplitude..jpg

The frequency response wasn't bad, but the phase went from +20deg to zero in the frequency range (10Hz to 140Hz) that we were going to be using it in. Isn't that going to play havoc with the servo-feedback, I asked? "Well, we'll just slow down the servo so that it doesn't matter. Nobody's going to notice," I was told.

Being the curious audiophile PITA I was, I started asking questions of the engineering team. Why the ICE module in particular? What others have you investigated? What are the advantages? What are the disadvantages? And no, just because Jeff Rowland uses it in an amplifier that sells for more than our loudspeakers wasn't a good enough reason!!

By then, we had already invested in tooling, parts, etc. but I wasn't willing to proceed on the technology direction for possibly the next 10 years without at least some due diligence. Other technologies considered then were a module from Spectron and Nuforce. However, at that time I did not consider Nuforce a mature technology - they updated their modules almost every 3 months when they first launched. Spectron did not have a module, but the technology to design a Class D amp for us.

So, it ended up with the ICEPower again, and the UcD - which was very new at that time. So the comparison:

1) Full bridge (ICE) vs Half bridge (UcD). The advantage of a full bridge design is that power supply bus pumping was far less than with the half bridge design, and this was a very important consideration for a subwoofer amplifier. Since the built-in subwoofer amplifiers are single-channel, we couldn't take advantage of the reverse-phase pair (as I mentioned in post #5 on this thread). Taking care of bus pumping in the power supply for the UcD would make it more complicated (+1 to ICE).

Since the full bridge design only requires a single-ended power supply (0V, +75V) the power supply requires half the parts of the half bridge design. The parts for the half bridge power supply (-40V, 0V, +40V) are cheaper and smaller than for a 75V power supply but not half as cheap and half as small (+1 to ICE).

With a full bridge design, BOTH speaker output terminals are "hot" and with DC level equal to half the power supply voltage - this means that both speaker output terminals float at +37.5V, and shorting either of them to ground which could happen in failure modes is disastrous. (+1 to UcD)

2) Specifications. The ICE power module is 500W into 4ohms, the UcD 400W. For marketing purposes, 500W has a great advantage over 400W. In the real world, it made no difference. Otherwise, specifications are close - except for the phase response. (+1 ICE)

3) Implementation issues. The ICE module has no protection of any sort - over current or thermal. If a woofer voice-coil melts (for example) and shorts to the basket there could be dangerous consequences if overcurrent protection isn't implemented. The UcD module has over current clipping, current limiting, short circuit and thermal shutdown. (+1 UcD)

The ICE module requires additional -12V.0V,+12V well-regulated power supply for the input stage. This is built-in on the UcD (but they provide instructions on how to add on your own for better sound). That Hypex has this built in gives (+1 UcD), that they care enough to provide instructions to improving gave my audiophile heart a nice warm feeling.

4) Listening. At the end of all that, it was tied. So, the question was - can the phase shift of 20deg be heard in the bass? We built two subs using the existing servo-control and preamp from the original amp. Listened to the three and did some ABX - old against ICE, old against UcD and ICE against UcD. It was difficult to tell the difference between the old amp against the ICE module - so no improvement there, but there was a distinct rhythmic improvement in the UcD module. The bass seemed snappier and tighter, and PRaT was better.

So, with the UcD module the trade-off was slightly better sound and easier implementation with all the on-board safety against slightly lower power and more complexity in the power supply. With the better phase response, we also tighten up the servo control for even better bass rhythm and pace. The side-effects of this was better ambiance and a wider soundstage.

While all this was going on, I was learning about loudspeaker design - and realizing that soldering crossover components on while music was playing isn't a very good idea because one slip and you blow up the amplifier. Since the UcD had such good output protection, I built an amplifier for development purposes, and it sounded fab! Not as good as my reference amplifier at that time, but far safer as a short circuit merely made it burp instead of burn.

Building a similar amp for full-range duty with the ICE module, the upper midrange and high frequencies were far grittier. Violins had an unnatural "glare" and it made female singers sound unforgiving and hard. Now, this is not saying that the ICE module can be made to sound good - this is merely implementing the UcD with the available power supply and transformer that they sell for DIYers and the ICE module with the power supply as recommended in their application notes.

With the full-range amplifiers, the voltage in both speaker outputs made a much greater difference to the sound of loudspeaker cables. I found the difference between cables to be far more with the full-bridge amplifier than with the half-bridge amplifier. I can only speculate to the cause, but with the speaker cables 37V above ground at all times, it might have something to do with the capacitance between the cables and the carpet.
 

DonH50

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Very interesting post, thanks Gary!

FWIWFM, I suspect the difference in sensitivity to cables between configurations (full vs half) was due more to the effective output impedance than capacitance to the carpet; 37 V is really nothing and d.c. anyway.
 

garylkoh

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Very interesting post, thanks Gary!

FWIWFM, I suspect the difference in sensitivity to cables between configurations (full vs half) was due more to the effective output impedance than capacitance to the carpet; 37 V is really nothing and d.c. anyway.

I thought about that - the full bridge amp had output impedance of 5mOhms and the half bridge amp had output impedance of 20mOhms. And this might be a case where the lower output impedance was not as good as something low-enough but reasonable so that the impedance of the cable did not contribute as much.
 

muralman1

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Jul 7, 2010
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With the full-range amplifiers, the voltage in both speaker outputs made a much greater difference to the sound of loudspeaker cables. I found the difference between cables to be far more with the full-bridge amplifier than with the half-bridge amplifier. I can only speculate to the cause, but with the speaker cables 37V above ground at all times, it might have something to do with the capacitance between the cables and the carpet.

You proved my point. That is why I found out the speaker cables I created are the best sounding by far.

Would you please tell us what source you were using with the ICE amp? I ask that because, like with speaker cables, the answer will make all the difference using ICE amps.
 

garylkoh

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At that time, the system was Esoteric DV-50 player modified by Vacuum State Electronics, Roksan Xerses turntable with Naim Aro and Magic Diamond cart. Electronics was FM Acoustics 122 phono and 255 preamp. All interconnects at that time was FM Acoustics.
 

muralman1

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Jul 7, 2010
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I have had over 6 years of experimentation to find out all there is to know about ICE amps.

This is quote taken from the Stereophile review: "The DV-50 includes massively powerful upconversion/digital filtering facilities."

That sounds like a steamroller bearing down on the music signal, and that is exactly what it will sound like.

I have heard ICE amps, no matter how good, won't amplify vinyl well. Seeing how my system needs everything to be just right or hell will be heard, the very mechanical interaction with a groove probably wouldn't be a good thing. I don't know anyone who will transport their record players here to prove otherwise. I am willing to be proved wrong. Hmmmm.
 
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DonH50

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I thought about that - the full bridge amp had output impedance of 5mOhms and the half bridge amp had output impedance of 20mOhms. And this might be a case where the lower output impedance was not as good as something low-enough but reasonable so that the impedance of the cable did not contribute as much.

Hmmm... Seems like either would be in the mud, at least at d.c. I was thinking more about impedance over frequency -- any idea what Zout vs. frequency was like? No worries, just curious. - Don
 

garylkoh

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You're most welcome.

I sometimes wonder why more amplifier manufacturers don't use the Hypex module as a foundation for an amplifier. If you treat the module as a "black box" component (much like a KT88 tube) and put the appropriate circuits around the module, it can be made to sound absolutely fabulous. There are others on this forum who already know about a ladder of caps (with a couple of appropriate chokes) in the power supply - together with a Hypex module, you will have a fabulous measuring as well as fabulous sounding amplifier that will go head-to-head with the best money can buy - tube or solid-state.
 

muralman1

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garylkoh,

You must have made your ICE measurements a long time ago. You said the 500 watt ICE module required a well regulated power supply. What did you use for a power supply with the ICE module? When I first looked into ICE class D there were two types, those with built in power supplies, and one without. The one without was the only module whose sound can be changed by an enterprising amp builder. That module was the 250 watt 500A. This was 8 years ago. The sound from the built in power supply modules back then was not audiophile ready. The newer ones are Ok. The 500A continues to be the best.
 
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garylkoh

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Sep 6, 2010
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garylkoh,

You must have made your ICE measurements a long time ago. You said the 500 watt ICE module required a well regulated power supply. What did you use for a power supply with the ICE module? When I first looked into ICE class D there were two types, those with built in power supplies, and one without. The one without was the only module whose sound can be changed by an enterprising amp builder. That module was the 250 watt 500A. This was 8 years ago. The sound from the built in power supply modules back then was not audiophile ready. The newer ones are Ok. The 500A continues to be the best.

This was about 3 years ago. It was the 500A which requires TWO power supplies - an unregulated one for the current stage, and a regulated one for the input buffer.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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Gary,
Can you describe the acoustic environment you're listening in when you've tried different amps and solutions?

Basically the lab I use for design - carpet on concrete floor, standard US-type dry-wall, just enough acoustic treatment by ASC (bass traps, diffusion panels and absorption panels), acoustic tiles in the ceiling (backed by fibre).
 

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