ICEpower amps

amirm · Dec 12, 2010

There was a nice discussion getting started on different versions of ICEPower Class D amps in Dr. Geddes forum that I thought would be best to continue here.

For those not familiar with them, these are pre-designed class D modules which various companies take and incorporate into their own boxes: http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/en/solutions/speaker/ASP_SERIES

And the ASX2 series: http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/en/solutions/speaker/ASX2_SERIES

Midgard Audio said:
Of all the ICE-power modules I prefer the ASP series.

Bjorn said:
I advice you not to buy ICEpower ASP modules. There are better options out there now. I don't think it matters much which brand it is, they still use the same modules which has it's weaknesses, mainly in the treble region. The ICEpower ASX2 series perform better, so does the mentioned Abletec modules I linked to earlier. The top Pioneer receivers may also be a better option and I doubt that you need more power. The Pioneer receiver with ICEpower puts out what it says in contrast to your Denon or several other AB based receivers.

Can I get Bjorn and Jørn to expand on their comments here?

muralman1 · Dec 12, 2010

All ICE amps are built with onboard power supplies with just 3 exceptions. The amp I use incorporates the relatively unused 500A module. Why does B&O continue to offer the 500A? Not only did they continue it, they went to a lot of trouble improving the 500A. I have heard both versions, and the latter change did perfect the module. They value this module because it allows amp builders to create conventional power supplies that will edify the B&O name. What is the advantage of the add on power supply module? According to one builder who makes amps using all the B&O ASX and ASP modules, the best are the ones without the built in power supply, the 500A and the 250A.

When matched up with other stellar performers the result is quite shockingly real.

amirm · Dec 12, 2010

Getting the power supply right is pretty important in Class D amps as voltage variations, unlike class AB, directly modify the output voltage. Put another way, immunity to supply variations is quite poor in Class D topology. A clean, linear power supply will surely contribute to cleaner output.

muralman1 · Dec 12, 2010

Now, that is what I am talking about.

garylkoh · Dec 12, 2010

Another problem with Class D amplifiers is power supply bus pumping. This can be very bad in half-bridge modules, and not as bad in the full-bridge modules like the ICEPower. However, one problem with the full-bridge module is that both speaker terminals ride at half the power supply voltage - not 0V - when idle. So, do not ground the -ve or black speaker terminal or you'll blow your fuses.

An elegant solution to half-bridge power supply bus pumping problem is to always build stereo amps, and anti-phase left and right channels:
http://www.eetindia.co.in/STATIC/PDF/200907/EEIOL_2009JUL27_POW_TA_01.pdf?SOURCES=DOWNLOAD

I find it strange that most Class D amplifiers are sold as monoblocks, because even the full-bridge ICEPower will benefit from this. (Yes, I've built numerous prototypes with ICEPower.) I find it even stranger to use a SMPS to power a Class D amplifier because both the amplifier and the SMPS have the same problems, and can totally mess with the power circuit in your home or may be just your power conditioner - which may have another SMPS inside if it's one of the regenerating type.

garylkoh · Dec 12, 2010

BTW, anti-phasing the two channels fixes most of the treble problems if you correctly configure the output filters and tie both grounds together.

Now you all know the secrets to my award-winning Class D amps. Go build your own!

Orb · Dec 13, 2010

garylkoh said:
Another problem with Class D amplifiers is power supply bus pumping. This can be very bad in half-bridge modules, and not as bad in the full-bridge modules like the ICEPower. However, one problem with the full-bridge module is that both speaker terminals ride at half the power supply voltage - not 0V - when idle. So, do not ground the -ve or black speaker terminal or you'll blow your fuses.

An elegant solution to half-bridge power supply bus pumping problem is to always build stereo amps, and anti-phase left and right channels:
http://www.eetindia.co.in/STATIC/PDF/200907/EEIOL_2009JUL27_POW_TA_01.pdf?SOURCES=DOWNLOAD

I find it strange that most Class D amplifiers are sold as monoblocks, because even the full-bridge ICEPower will benefit from this. (Yes, I've built numerous prototypes with ICEPower.) I find it even stranger to use a SMPS to power a Class D amplifier because both the amplifier and the SMPS have the same problems, and can totally mess with the power circuit in your home or may be just your power conditioner - which may have another SMPS inside if it's one of the regenerating type.

Maybe the future of Class D is similar to what Devialet has done; use a 5w Class A amp for voltage and the Class D amps for current.
From what I have seen it has measurements that really do put nearly any other amp to shame, incredibly linear and also no traditional problems with output-speaker impedance.

The Mark Levinson no 53 is IMO another nice design using interleaving technique to boost the switching rate up to roughly 2Mhz (most seem to be around 300Khz), and furthermore the interleaving improves measurements so ironically when the amp is under more strain it actually has better measurements.
However it still suffers the same way as all other Class D amps relating to the filter-output impedance-speaker impedance although not as badly as others.
Crazy price though for that ML 53, really crazy and I wonder how much cash was pumped into developing that technology (possibly hell of a lot), still Devialet has I think 4 patents involved in their design and they manage to sell a stereo product as a "digital integrated" so has preamp and DAC for a quarter to half of the price of the ML 53 monobloc (depends I guess which side of the Atlantic you live).

Anyway this decade definitely looks to be a very interesting one for Class D when consider Nad/ARC/and soon Chapter Audio with their own design are also selling interesting products.
Cheers
Orb

muralman1 · Dec 13, 2010

The class D amps I use have lots of fast firing capacitance and deep storage capacitance. The preamp was made especially for class D as it has no problem with the low impedance. I use mono blocks so I can make my speaker cables short. The result is the singer is in the room. That is while powering 1 ohm speakers. The amps are only 250 watts.

garylkoh · Dec 14, 2010

Orb said:
Anyway this decade definitely looks to be a very interesting one for Class D when consider Nad/ARC/and soon Chapter Audio with their own design are also selling interesting products.
Cheers
Orb

Agreed! 46 years after the first Class D amplifier (Sir Clive Sinclair and Gordon Edge), and 36 years after the first "audiophile" Class D amplifier (Arnie Nudell and John Ulrick) this decade will definitely be interesting for Class D. When you pause to think about the environment, consider using Class D amps to reduce our carbon footprint.

Disclaimer - I manufacture a Class D amp. So, take that statement for what you will.

JackD201 · Dec 14, 2010

muralman1 said:
The class D amps I use have lots of fast firing capacitance and deep storage capacitance. The preamp was made especially for class D as it has no problem with the low impedance. I use mono blocks so I can make my speaker cables short. The result is the singer is in the room. That is while powering 1 ohm speakers. The amps are only 250 watts.

Hi Muralman,

Which of Henry's amps do you use? The specs for the S and SA are identical and I was wondering what the extra $2,000 gets you with the SA. Different Ice modules perhaps one of the differences?

Vincent Kars · Dec 14, 2010

How do the ICE compare with the UCD (http://www.hypex.nl/)?

Orb · Dec 14, 2010

Vincent Kars said:
How do the ICE compare with the UCD (http://www.hypex.nl/)?

To that list if looking for an OEM type product there is also the Zetex Semiconductors/NAD design (collaboration tweak for them I guess in same way Rotel did with ICE); DDFA amplifier.
http://www.diodes.com/applications/audio/ddfaa/

Cheers
Orb

muralman1 · Dec 14, 2010

JackD201 said:
Hi Muralman,

Which of Henry's amps do you use? The specs for the S and SA are identical and I was wondering what the extra $2,000 gets you with the SA. Different Ice modules perhaps one of the differences?

You can look at the Signature (normal) amp on Audiogon. It is H2O (letter O) I use monos (I need all the power). He has a 100 watt amp that was very favorably reviewed (the reviewer bought the amp). All the 250 watt amps have the same module. I have the Signature monos and can't be happier. Your extra 2k would help finance the Fire.

muralman1 · Dec 14, 2010

And here is a review of the H2O 100 compared to the twice as expensive Monarchy amp. The reviewer uses a CD player that my system would flay open as a thin constricted sound. Good to know that didn't bother the reviewer much. My sound has lots of bold body and warmth, while producing the lightest tickle of a harp.

http://www.affordableaudio.org/H20-Monarchy.pdf

DonH50 · Dec 14, 2010

The ones in my Pioneer AVR (SC-27) seem to do a pretty good job. There is a very good article (white paper) online (somewhere) about Pioneer's development and working with ICE to get THX certification of their ICE-powered AVRs. - Don

JackD201 · Dec 14, 2010

muralman1 said:
You can look at the Signature (normal) amp on Audiogon. It is H2O (letter O) I use monos (I need all the power). He has a 100 watt amp that was very favorably reviewed (the reviewer bought the amp). All the 250 watt amps have the same module. I have the Signature monos and can't be happier. Your extra 2k would help finance the Fire.

You're talking in Zen again man. You lost me there. So you're saying the S and the SA are just the same and the extra 2 grand should be used for the Fire? No differences in power supply etc.?

garylkoh · Dec 15, 2010

Vincent Kars said:
How do the ICE compare with the UCD (http://www.hypex.nl/)?

I built prototypes with a number of different ICE modules and also UcD modules, and ended up using the UcD400 for various reasons. Since this forum is about ICEpower amps, may be it might be appropriate to have a discussion in a general forum on the various Class D modules available - and there are quite a number now.

amirm · Dec 15, 2010

Go ahead Gary. I can always rename the thread if needed. I would love to know the differences

.

muralman1 · Dec 15, 2010

JackD201 said:
You're talking in Zen again man. You lost me there. So you're saying the S and the SA are just the same and the extra 2 grand should be used for the Fire? No differences in power supply etc.?

JackD201, Zen? I take that as a complement. Maybe it's because I no longer fret about system changes. I just loose myself in gorgeous music.

I really don't know all the differences between SA an S is. I do know the SA has silver wiring. Besides that, I know the SA has expensive bypass caps. I did that myself. I found Sonicap Platinum caps to be just right. He does offer a free test at your home in his Audiogon site.

Vincent Kars · Dec 15, 2010

amirm said:
Go ahead Gary.

+1

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